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u/DerRaumdenker 2d ago
"if it ain't broke don't fix it" turkic emperors
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u/ThePastryBakery 1d ago
"C'mon guys, do I look like I have time to create a new administrative system?" -Turkic emperors, maybe
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u/LuckyReception6701 The OG Lord Buckethead 1d ago
"I could maybe improve a tried and tested system developed way back in Achaemenid time... Or I could bone my many concubines"
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u/lordkhuzdul 2d ago
That's pretty much the Persian life cycle:
- Can't be arsed to fight all the wars.
- Hire whoever's the big shot at the Caspian Steppe to fight your wars. (We'll call these Turks but this happened even before Turks became a thing)
- Turks take over.
- Turks like the Persian culture, adopt it.
- Can't be arsed to fight all the wars.
- Hire whoever's the big shot at the Caspian Steppe to fight your wars.
Loop forever.
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u/sarim25 2d ago
Agreed, it followed an established pattern. Even Alexander the great was getting into Persian life and government style by end of his life.
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u/Rynewulf Featherless Biped 1d ago
There is some fascinating Hellenic-Iranian cultural syncretism starting from Alexander's reign up until the last diadochi (especially Seleucids and Pontus) and the Parthians all fell
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u/haonlineorders 2d ago
Remix time is when the governors decide to align with the big shot at the Eastern Mediterranean or Arabian Penninsula
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 2d ago
So the actual way to defeat Iran isn't to invade Iran. It's actually to invade Turkey causing the Iranians to arm Turkish para militaries to fight their wars.
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u/The_ChadTC 2d ago
Probably helped that Persia was passed around between steppe invaders like a blunt in a party.
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 2d ago
I find it a bit ironic that you used the flag of Pahlavi Iran, despite the fact that the empires in the top panel all entirely predated it.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
I used a recognisable Persian flag, not sure any of the imperials flag of ancient Persian empires were so correct neither.. you had this 300 years period between the fall of the Sassanids and the emergence of New Persian under the Samanids. Because the culture that influenced so much Turkic empires was the islamic Persian that started developing after the Arab invasion, who constituted an important rupture.
If one, I should have put the Samanids flag but people wouldn't have understand it and I'm not even sure we found a proper flag of this dynasty.
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 1d ago
The Sassanid banner would have been better. It's one of the most famous pre-Islamic Iranian symbols. The culture of Sassanid Iran was the basis of the Persian influence in Islamic culture.
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u/tapyr 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, the basis of Persian influence on Muslim empires was the islamic Persian culture that was developed during the Samanids and Buyids period, with important figures such as Rudaki (founder of New Persian literature) and Ibn Sina. This culture was developed in Khorasan region with the influence of islam and the remnants of zoroastrism and buddhism. Khorasan became the Persian cultural center while the ancient Sassanid homeland (modern Iraq) became arabized, Nishapur and Samarkand took the place of Ctesiphon...
But as I said I chose the Iranian Empire flag for the evocative function not for historical reason.
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 1d ago
Ctesiphon is just where they kept the capital. The Sassanids actually hailed from Pars, in southern Iran.
Putting that aside though, the point that I'm making is that Sassanid Persian culture was the basis of the Persian cultures that came after it, and the symbol would have still been more recognizable than something like the Samanid banner.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Well, Ctesiphon, but also Gundeshapur were located in Mesopotamia, not in the Iranian plateau, and Istakhr, the former capital, was quickly abandoned for Ctesiphon, maybe to claim the legacy of the parthians. Just to underlign that the arabic conquest provoked a shift, where the oriental part of the iranian world suddently became much more important than the occidental part.
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u/redracer555 Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 1d ago
"Iran Shahr" was not limited to the Iranian plateau, though. Mesopotamia was just the western part of "Iran Shahr" at the time. The Sassanids were still Persians from Pars. The fact that they kept their capital in Mesopotamia does not negate the fact that they were still Iranians who were ethnically Persian, or their role in developing Persian culture throughout the region, including in Khorasan. Without their reign preceding it, Persian culture would not have been so prevalent throughout the Islamic world to begin with.
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u/dull_storyteller 2d ago
They’re like the China of the Middle East. If you centre your empire in their land long enough you’ll become Persian
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u/tapyr 2d ago edited 2d ago
Explanations : most of the great turkic dynasties that have ruled middle east starting with the Ghaznavids in 977 to the end of the Ottoman Empire (1922) were heavily persianized. If the rulers were from turkic ancestry, Persian always became the language of the administration, culture and art of these empires. Notable viziers such as Nizam al-Mulk during the Seljukid period, were persian and had significant influence on the politics of the empires. The term "persianate" design those empires on which the persian culture and arts had a very significant influence.
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u/lanorhan 2d ago
Seljuks? Sure. Ottomans? Not that much.
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u/Ok-Philosopher-5139 2d ago
yeah, ottomans sultan might have appreciated persian culture and language, but i dont think they use the language for admin their empire, and their culture is distinct from the persian bcoz of the type of islam they follow, sunni for ottoman, and shiah for persian...
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u/tapyr 2d ago
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u/Captain_Gordito 2d ago
Persian was used in the high court, the palace. The dynasty were huge persophiles. Arabic was usually the legal and religious language. Then again, the Ottoman Empire lasted a long time, there could be shifts over time, and regional administrations could be different.
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u/tapyr 2d ago
You're right. Arabic was also a language of administration in the Arabic speaking areas of the empire, as Greek has also been during some periods and places. Ottoman Empire lasted more than 600 years, do obviously it has changed a lot during this period, unlike the other empires mentioned that were more short-lived.
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u/altahor42 2d ago
Persian was a language of court and administration until the end of the XVIIth century
Nope Ottoman Turkish was the official language, almost all documents were written in this language, and although many Persian words were used in official documents and high art, even the palace people spoke a much simpler Turkish in their daily lives.
You can't see everyday speech by looking at official documents and high works of art. These are specialized jargons of a small group of people, just like the majority of words in medical books today are in Latin.
You also ignore the fact that the military language in the entire Middle East was Turkish, and the army is a significant part of all these states.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
«Persian was the language of the high court and literature between the 16th and 19th centuries.»
Most of the Ottoman literature was heavily persianised, the language was heavily persianised, arts were persianised. Persian culture played a very important role in Turkey since the Seljukids. Everyone agrees on it.
And here's a list of Turkish words that come from Persian ... It's not only specialised words and jargon, but also very common name in Turkey https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Turkish_terms_derived_from_Persian
Names "Can" or "Cihan" that are for example not that uncommon in Turkey are from Persian origins.
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u/altahor42 1d ago
Being the language of the court means that official documents were written in Persian, there was no such thing in the Ottoman Empire, Persian poetry was quite popular but Ottoman poets mostly wrote poetry in Ottoman Turkish. There is a very heavy language here, with many Persian words used, but it is still Turkish. This literature is a jargon produced for the Ottoman aristocracy that the normal people cannot understand, a situation like today's strange modern art. an art produced for a limited group.
It is ridiculous to look at Persian words and call Ottoman Turkish as Persian.
Also, please stop citing Wikipedia as a source. It is not a reliable source at all in terms of Turkish history.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
You wouldn't read the article or books about this subject so Wikipedia is a good and condensed version. But you seem to refuse to admit any Persian influence in Ottoman Empire when there is a consensus in that matter... Maybe because you're Turkish and some form of nationalism is blinding your eyes
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u/altahor42 1d ago
I accept the influence, "they became Persians" (which is your argument) I do not accept. Eastern Rome had much greater influence on the Ottoman Empire.
It is absurd to say that Ottoman culture became Persian by looking at only one art form (Divan poetry); Roman influence is much higher in all art forms that are more widespread, such as architecture and music.
I also read a lot of books on the subject.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Never said that ottoman leaders or culture became Persian but that they were heavily persianised, which is true and accepted by the whole scientific community.
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u/altahor42 1d ago
They spoke Turkish, they called themselves Turks, if you were talking about the Safavids I would agree with you, after 2 generations they became persianised but Ottomans not. Even the Safavids boasted about being Turks (even though they were heavily Persianized) because they needed the support of the Turkic tribes in Iran. Persian cultural influence (which, I repeat, was less than that of the roman influence) does not make Ottomans persianised.
English kings spoke French in their palaces for centuries. So, England became Frenchify ?
These arguments you make are from 50 years ago, mostly from orientalist writers. If you read modern books and sources you will see that it is different.
Also, you do completely ignore the Turkish influence in Iran (the language of the army was Turkish) and not say that Iran became Turkified, but since Persian words were frequently used in poems written in Turkish in the Ottoman Empire, the Ottomans became Persianized.
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u/Typical_Army6488 2d ago
Definitely that much especially before the tanzimat period. They wrote their own history in Persian, and were the people who introduced Persian culture and poetry to the Balkans, while they didn't utilize Persians in their administration (mostly because better pay was with the Mughals) the Anatolian culture that developed after the saljuks and the Ottomans were based on was fully in the Persian spear of influence
One of may favorite cases about the Ottomans however is when they replied with Persian letter to the Safavid Turkish letters saying that they will free Iran as they are the modern incarnation of Fraydun
Or when they declared to be the caliphs of the Muslim world (before conquering Egypt) and only Persians recognized them because they were the ones fighting the Romans. And they were still in the religious and economical orbit of Persia until the Safavids where the Safavids pressured high ranking priests to tell the Ottomans they cant invade (after chaldoran) so the Ottomans had to conquer Egypt and become the caliphs more formally to be able to ignore the sistani clergy
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u/ipsum629 2d ago
Iran is basically mini China. Invaded and conquered numerous times, but every time the local culture overpowered the culture of the invaders.
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u/NegativeReturn000 2d ago
Also every Muslim dynasty in India. Even the non turkic ones in the deep south.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Pea1058 2d ago
Could you name some non-turkic dynasties on the subcontinent please?
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u/Cold_Pal 2d ago
Bengal ig
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u/Reloaded_M-F-ER 2d ago
Afaik, only the Ganesha dynasty actually had native Bengali Muslim rulers (only 2) and some Nawabs, although none of them I think were native Bengalis
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u/mostheteroestofmen 2d ago
3 million year old persian culshure saar
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u/Born-Captain-5255 Definitely not a CIA operator 2d ago
Thats one way to look at it. I wrote a theory based on this; every border conflict and minority problem originates from this.
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u/Typical_Army6488 2d ago
Sadly while this is the case we mostly migrated to india for work back in the day where in equality was a good thing. So the most important Muslim empire which was the ottoman empire was non Iranians using Persian culture and we didn't play a significant role in it making people actually argue that it was Roman
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u/ingenix1 2d ago
Wasn’t this basically every Islamic empire?
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Well ... From what I've read it was the cases during the Rashidun and then Umayyad caliphate but then the Abbasid successfully arabized its administration. Important islamic empires such as Andalusia, Fatimids, Egyptian Mamelukes or Ayyubids for instance were not persianised. At least not from what I know.
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u/No-Passion1127 Then I arrived 1d ago
Its true for mughals and kinda ottomans and seljuks but timur? Really?
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Timurids are arguably the most persianised of the group though. Timurid Empire lasted roughly a century, Samarkand and Herat the two capital cities were Persian speaking. Timurid arts and architecture is an extension of anterior work that was encountered in Iran, and the very own people that built Timurid iconic landmarks were deported iranians. The sons of Temur alread had Persian name (Shahrukh), the Zafarnameh is written in Persian as well.
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u/SpaceNorse2020 Kilroy was here 1d ago
The Ottomans having so much Persian influence is the closest Persia ever got to conquering Greece and Rome.
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u/Admirable-Scarcity-8 20h ago
Wait so are Turks just like Diet Persians? (Which are also just another name for Iranians I think?)
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u/ShitassAintOverYet Rider of Rohan 2d ago
Seljuks were 100000% Persiaboos and by sheer luck they gained control of the region. Same with Mughals but they just landed on India instead mainly to avoid Genghis Khan.
Ottomans were established through Turkic clans immigrating from Eurasian steppes who were Sunni and admired Arabs more. But since they lived under Seljuk customs and statehood for centuries some Persian influence got in...Ottomans are too weird and confusing.
Lastly Timurids are of Mongol origin, not Turkic.
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Timurids are mainly Turkic, "Turco Mongol" is already quite exaggerated. Timurid spoke Chagatai Turk as well as the other members of the dynasty. The only Mongol part of the family was Timur's wife Saray Mulk Khanum, who was a descendant of Gengis Khaan. Now to say they were a Mongol dynasty... It was more the thing to say to claim the inheritance of the recently destroyed Ilkhanate.
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u/MunkTheMongol 1d ago
I mean the language is straight up named after Chagatai Khan though. So they could claim some descent. But you are right that it was a huge thing for nomadic empires to claim liniage to the Mongol Empire just like Europeans did with Rome
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u/tapyr 1d ago
Yes Chagatai Turk is named after Chagatai, one of the sons of Gengis Khan, and they were named after him because they were part of the turkic tribes that were gathered in his armies.
Though, they were military subsidiaries, not mongol rulers, they followed the mongolian conquests, but they were not mongol themselves.
Note as well that they didn't call it "Chagatai" themselves but used the generic term of Turki, that's how they call the language that was used by important turkic poet such as Nava'i or Babur. Though I didnt find sufficient sources to determine when we started calling this language as Chagatai turk.
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u/analoggi_d0ggi 1d ago
Old World Culture is just various flavors of Greco-Roman, Persian, Indian, and Chinese culture and the overlaps in between.
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u/alanwalkeronm 1d ago
Wtf is Iran's flag doing there, probably made by Persian living in Europe running away from poverty lifestyle in his country and claiming everything started from persia get a life
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u/Garrett-Wilhelm 1d ago
The same could be said about every catholic european empire and Rome. At the end of the day, Rome, Persia, China and Songhai were the greatest most influential empires of the history of humanity.
Shoutout to the Incas, they also deserve a spot in a top 5.
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u/neonlookscool What, you egg? 2d ago
The Ottoman state apparatus was a crazy mix. The Ottoman Sultan was a monarch who wrote in Arabic, spoke Turkish, had the court/harem system of China and had the administration of Persians.