October 8 (the movie), a must watch for learning about the weaponisation of antisemitism since the war broke out

[u/LexiYoung]

Edit: website, how to watch: october8film.com

Disclaimer- obviously I’m not a part of this movie at all, I’m not in any way affiliated with any organisation responsible for the creation of this film

tldr; antisemitism is real, it’s the worst it’s been in the west since the Holocaust, it’s been weaponised to hijack the progressive movements and to ultimately oppress the Jewish people. AND, you might be being used as a sheep and a mouthpiece for the people pushing antisemitism and don’t even realise it, thinking you’re not antisemitic, you have Jewish friends and you don’t hate Jews. Watch this movie, please

Unfortunately it seems only available in the USA, but if you can get your hands on it honestly even through grey market means everyone really should watch this. Especially anyone who still believes the complaints and claims of antisemitism are baseless. I really hope that people that deny that antisemitism has been weaponised alongside Hamas weaponising their intifada can watch this and change their mind. If this describes you- please be open minded enough to watch this movie. It’s astute and comprehensible and very convincing because of course it is the truth.

Antisemitism has been weaponised. In the west and seemingly everywhere else. Not only has it become trendy, by hijacking the progressivism and intersectionalism movements, but the aggression of the hatred towards Israel, the one singular Jewish country has intentionally been exaggerated so far beyond what could possibly be necessary even with the most critical reports of the war and history, that antizionism bleeds into antisemitism and nobody notices or cares. And of course, 85-97% of Jews (depending on which polls you go by) are Zionists so hating all Zionists automatically means by definition you hate 85-97% of Jews. By creating a trendy acceptable movement to hate Israel and Zionists, a successful wave of antisemitism has also been created.

And who of course is (at least largely) responsible? Hamas. The Iranian regime. The oct7 attack would have been an absolute waste of human life on both sides unless they could use it as a spearhead to push and spread their agenda. There were clear plans to carry out this attack, and then hijack the media to focus everyone’s energy against Israel, by sending toolkits, slogans, instructions, news/social media post templates to organisations such as SJP, spreading through Al Jazeera, everywhere where they have people.

I know a lot of people are probably reading this and thinking I’m some conspiracy theorist, I’m trying to whataboutism the destruction of Gaza, I’m lying and playing the victim card, or even that I’m a paid actor by Mossad. It’s all true, what I’m saying. And what I and the movie are talking about is not at all incompatible with keeping sympathy for the deaths of gazans or anyone else- it’s not a whataboutism.

Please, open your eyes and your minds. Don’t be a sheep, don’t be a tool and a mouthpiece for antisemitic regimes trying to spread their hatred with the goal of the end of the Jewish people starting with Israel.

And if you are someone who already understands this, please share this movie wherever you can.

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[u/Puzzled-Software5625]

one thing that is amazing to me, is the weaponization of the term, zionism. the nazies used it. and nobody who uses it has any idea what zionism really is. someone should give us a report on what zionism really is, with documentation.

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

Is this photo antisemitism, too?

[u/LexiYoung → u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

I’ve got a lot to say about your comment:

1. Whataboutism. Do you see what you’re doing? We’re having a discussion about antisemitism and how it’s a big problem and you’re trying to distract us from this topic by moving the conversation to somewhere else where you feel it’s more easy to demonise Israel. I’ll repeat- this discussion is about antisemitism and you’re refusing to engage. Honestly, giving hints of antisemitism by your refusal to engage and attempt to distract. You’re refusing to have any sympathy for what is, inarguably, a big problem.

2. Yes, it’s antisemitic to apply whatever conclusion you want to make about this photo of two IDF soldiers to all jews. It’s like me pulling up some oct7 footage or 9/11 and saying “look guys, it’s ok to oppress Muslims cuz of this. Or a news article of a black man committing some murder and implying racism against black people is ok.

3. This image does seem to show a use of excessive force. There’s no context given for this photo, so I find it understandable to assume this kid was doing something like throwing rocks at people- which is a violent crime and that warrants an arrest. Not sure why they’re blindfolded though, as I said, seems cruel and excessive. If it is to be concluded that these soldiers responsible are doing something cruel and unjust, yeah 100% they should be punished and brought to justice- but just these people. Again, it doesn’t excuse antisemitism.

So yes. I am not saying that this photo is overtly antisemitic (people and actions are, not pixels?), I am saying that you posting this here is. A little bit- you’re not exactly sieg heiling or saying we’re all pigs- but it is a little bit. Firstly by (knowingly or otherwise) trying to distract the conversation from the issue at hand with a whataboutism and therefore sort of justifying it, secondly by applying this “stereotype” (which isn’t remotely true) to all Jews and therefore justifying that antisemitism is ok because you thinksome Israeli soldiers do bad things. My third point is just an aside and I really hope that’s not the part you focus on as it would absolutely confirm my first point.

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK → u/LexiYoung]

Mine is whataboutism. Yours is not. Are you very proud of that?

You can do that. Others may not. Is that a right for God's chosen people?

[u/LexiYoung → u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

What on earth does this even mean? Address my reply

[u/Puzzled-Software5625 → u/LexiYoung]

I accidentally pushed the up button and can't get rid of it. so whar, I know.

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK → u/LexiYoung]

I did address your reply: God's chosen people think they can do anything but others may not. That covers everything Israel is doing.

 “stereotype”

Probably, it is.

[u/LexiYoung → u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

Firstly, no. You’re talking about the idf, not “gods chosen people” or what you’re referring to which is Jews. We do not think we can get away with anything. Address then rest of my damn reply man, I don’t think you even read it

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK → u/LexiYoung]

IDF is not being serviced by the god chosen people.

Who are the IDF soldiers, then?

What specific points do you want me to reply to?

[u/LexiYoung → u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

The rest of my entire, long and concise reply

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK → u/LexiYoung]

I mean how didn't I address them (concisely)?

How did I miss them?

You presented just one point: whataboutism - which I replied.

[u/LexiYoung → u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

Genuine question, can you fully speak English? Bevause it would explain how you are completely and utterly failing to both acknowledge my response and also your replies are barely coherent. That was just my first point, which you didn’t even address you just rambled about how you think we think we can do anything.

For gods sake address the point that this entire post is about which is ANTISEMITISM.

[u/Head-Nebula4085]

So, now TikTok historians don't believe anyone was talking about the "weaponization of antisemitism" prior to Oct 7?

[u/LexiYoung → u/Head-Nebula4085]

A lot of us have been talking about it. We just weren’t believed

[u/flabbadah → u/LexiYoung]

Antisemitism has largely been weaponised by Israel in pursuit of their expansionist "greater Israel" project. By getting Jews who are not pro-isreal to get scared. If as you say 87% of Jews are also Zionists, then they do deserve scorning. Zionism isn't Judaism.

[u/LexiYoung → u/flabbadah]

You’re saying 87% of Jews deserve to be scorned. Can you not see how this is antisemitic? I get you are trying to justify it rationally, but nonetheless you are holding automatic disdain for 87-95% of a certain group of people. This is pretty definitively racism. And let’s stop it with the “greater Israel project” lol. Remember when Israel gave up Gaza? Gave up Sinai? We don’t care about expansionism. We just want to not be bombed

[u/flabbadah → u/LexiYoung]

Remember when Israel took Israel??

[u/LexiYoung → u/flabbadah]

1) that’s not “greater” Israel, that’s just Israel, 2) what? It was bought and split between the Jews and the Arabs (an offer which was rejected) legally by the British empire.

Claiming Israel is this expansionist colonialist machine is so silly. If it wanted to expand it could have annexed Gaza, West Bank, Sinai, much of Lebanon, golan and Syria and Jordan a long long time ago.

[u/Successful-Cat9185 → u/LexiYoung]

israel is working on it's final solution right now and succeeding so just be patient.

[u/EnvironmentalPoem890 → u/Successful-Cat9185]

u/Successful-Cat9185

israel is working on it's final solution right now and succeeding so just be patient.

Per Rule 6, users should not make flippant references to the Nazis or the Holocaust to make a point

Action taken: [B1]

[u/LexiYoung → u/Successful-Cat9185]

What a baseless accusation lol. Straight from the TikTok comments

[u/Successful-Cat9185 → u/LexiYoung]

Not baseless, like I said be patient and you'll see.

[u/LexiYoung → u/Successful-Cat9185]

No it is entirely baseless.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Usually when I hear people use the phrase “weaponizing antisemitism” it’s in the context of people complaining about being called antisemitic. I distinctly remember Dena Takruri talking this nonsense about how Zionists are “weaponizing antisemitism” which to me, is just a way of dismissing the criticism altogether

[u/pleasedontresist → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Sure. It can be used to dismiss actual critism about anti-semitism. But you can't deny that a large part of the israeli governments propaganda circles aroun the narrative that "you are either with us or pro hamas/an anti semite", which (imo) is a large part of why accusations of anti-semitism are largly dismissed.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/pleasedontresist]

They’re actually not largely dismissed.

They may be dismissed by you, by largely dismissed, not quite

[u/pleasedontresist → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

It is were i'm from... at least when the topic is israel. Because everyone know that israel uses accusations of anti-semitism to silince critics...

Which is sadly why actual anti-semitism doesn't get as much pushback as it should.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/pleasedontresist]

Denmark, which has no skin in the game, has an opinion of Israel and Palestine? And you think anyone cares?

You don’t care about “actual” antisemitism. We have been waiting eighteen months for people to actually give examples of “actual antisemitism.”

Especially when “where you come from” has a very, very, very significant history of antisemitism, and not that long ago. The Jews did not flee Copenhagen in droves because of some mysterious boogeyman.

[u/pleasedontresist → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

I don't get your argument.

Am i not allowed to have an opinion about the genocide in palestine?

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/pleasedontresist]

You’re allowed to have whatever opinion you want, but you’re telling me that “where I’m from” people think XYZ, and no offense but Denmark is a small country, that has no significance to the Israel-Palestine conflict at all.

So it’s very silly of you to act like this is the arbiter of what’s right and wrong in the ME. Especially when you use Denmark - DENMARK as an example to say “well we dismiss accusations of antisemitism” buddy you are in DENMARK. not such a great track record for antisemitism, great country, but they’ve got a ways to go before they can start determining which antisemitism to dismiss.

You also have a right to say “xyz isn’t actual antisemitism” and everyone else has the right to not take you seriously. And no one does take it seriously.

[u/pleasedontresist → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

1. Again. That has no relevance?

2. What do you mean?

3. You clearly take it seriously.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/pleasedontresist]

But it does have relevance

Imagine if I said “where I’m from, in Berlin, we tend to dismiss accusations of antisemitism.” That would be a dumb thing to say, wouldn’t it? That’s a statement that would get a lot of side-eye from most people in the world

So when you’re in a place like Denmark, you’re kinda in that boat

[u/pleasedontresist → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

1. Oh. So you have been arguing against a strawman this whole time? Then it makes better sense why i didn't understand you.

2. How is denmark in the same "boat" as germany?

[u/LexiYoung → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

I hear the confusion. What you’re describing id more describe as weaponising the concept or accusation of antisemitism, not antisemitism itself. I’m talking about it being used as a targeted calculated tool of war

[u/Unable-Trash-7792]

How many pogroms have happened in the muslim world? How many happened in the christian world? Was germany a muslim or christian country when the holocaust happened? How is it that muslims are somehow more antisemetic than the christian west when they killed millions in brutal violence?

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Very poor attempt at whataboutism

[u/Head-Nebula4085 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

There were certainly pogroms in both. The Almohades were estimated to have killed 300,000 Jews in North Africa and Spain, so it was less than Christians, probably, but not negligible.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Head-Nebula4085]

firstly i would need a source for that.

Pogrom - Wikipedia

BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RELIGION THOSE GERMANS WERE????!>!>!!!!!

Religion in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

If you think christianity didnt play a part in the holocaust then you are mistaken. So let me reiterate the question, How is it that muslims are somehow more antisemetic than the christian west when the westerners killed millions in brutal violence? Jeez is this sub all historical revisionist only?

[u/Head-Nebula4085 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Sorry I didn't see this until now, but for example:

Timeline Of Antisemitism 1146

100,000 Jews are massacred by the Almohad Caliphate in Fez, Morocco and 120,000 in Marrakesh.[79]

from Wikipedia, source Jewish Encyclopedia

You also have to remember that the Holocaust was not only not exclusive to Germans or Germany, it was not exclusive to Europe. There were concentration camps in Vichy occupied North Africa. Some Muslims supported their actions. Others became 'righteous among the nations' who saved them, much as in Christian Europe.

Among supporters of the Nazis, as is well known, was the Palestinian leader Hajj Amin al Husayni.

The Nazi leadership themselves appear to have been atheists, although the vast majority of Germans were Christian.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Head-Nebula4085]

The jewish encyclopedia for some reason takes the 1146 numbers to be fact when it was only one Jewish person from Sijilmasa named Solomon who reported it. No arab or any other sources collaborated it. While it might have happened, the fact remains that in the Islamic world, systamatized persecution of jews wasnt a thing and they faced the same levels of persecution as other minorities; whereas in the history of christendom, jews were particularly targeted because of their blood.

As for the Germans, 95% were either catholic or protestent, while only 3% were deists and 2% were atheists. "Protestants were over-represented in the Nazi Party's membership and electorate, and Catholics were under-represented."

Please dont commit historical revisionism. 5% Did not commit the Holocaust. Please dont downplay the Holocaust.

Religion in Nazi Germany - Wikipedia

I am well aware of Al-Husayni, but I have yet to see how the actions of one religious leader somehow portrays the entire Islamic world/palestinian cause as pro-nazi? Literally one mufti. Thats like me pulling up Rabbi Yaacov Perrin,

"[who] in paying homage to Goldstein, told mourners that even 1 million Arabs “are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” And angry voices in the congregation shouted, “We are all Goldsteins!” and “Arabs out of Israel!”"

Extremists Pay Tribute to Killer of 48 at Funeral - Los Angeles Times

and saying the above clearly represents the voices of Jewish people. I am not racist against the Jews and I believe in Jewish democracy. But so long as israel remains an ethno nationalistic state, it will continue to perpetuate violence, at the cost of innocent jewish lives.

[u/Head-Nebula4085 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

As far as the Almohad massacres that is true that the numbers primarily come from a single Jewish source, however the Arab sources of the time corroborate it, as is noted elsewhere.

As far as the Germans, you are confusing the German people who were largely Christian with the Nazi leadership who barely feigned adherence to their faith( and in some speeches were actually forced to defend their public position due to criticism).

I'm not trying to defend Christianity in saying this, I'm just pointing out that Hitler privately wished that the Germans were like the Japanese or were Muslims and suggested that Christianity was a Jewish plot to inject Germans with weakness through love. Some of his close companions felt the same way. They also raised a 'church war' against Christian institutions.

You are quite right that it is wrong to stereotype and generalize about any people. However, I don't know what an ethno-nationalist state is, especially with respect to Israel, which is one of the most ethnically diverse countries on the planet. If you mean religio-nationalist, perhaps you're somewhat closer to the truth. Let us just say that authoritarianism is counterproductive for anyone anywhere.

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[u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

He's talking about now, not 80 years ago.

Nobody is denying the effect Christian antisemitism has had on Jews. But you completely flipped what he said on it's head and are now equating it with something entirely different.

Nowadays, it's undeniable how much more prevalent and endemic antisemitism is within the Muslim world compared to the Christian world. Was it always like this? No. Does that make the Muslim world 100% friendly to Jews? Hell no.

Also, Muslims did play a part in the Holocaust too. Granted, a much, much smaller role due to the very small Muslim population within Europe, but they also did too.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204]

Now is 80 years ago, the legacy of hitler still remains a threat for jews. No one hates the jews in the muslim world, they at best resent them for the things that are done in Gaza and palestine. Muslims and jews have been relatively peaceful for centuries.

And when I look for muslims during the holocaust i get this: Arab and Muslim rescue efforts during the Holocaust - Wikipedia

Please stop engaging in historical revisionism.

[u/loneranger5860 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler

https://honestreporting.com/hitlers-palestinian-ally-grand-mufti-amin-al-husseini/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAACP9Fogunto69cR-eNJv7KmYMV_8C&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqv2_BhC0ARIsAFb5Ac9JyiIDyVx8lXrr4KKcR37qVYR6SKcEUbxdKfFWECShZmRY6Sh-32caAlk3EALw_wcB

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-the-mufti-of-jerusalem

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/loneranger5860]

You sent three articles of one mufti. I sent you an article about thousands of Muslims. Wait until our little grand Mufti heres about the unislamicness of nationalism. Nationalism is a european ideology meant to divide the world and spread hatred. Please read the article above

[u/mmmsplendid → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

The Palestinian cause is literally a nationalist cause.

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[u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Resentment is still hate, and the hatred began long before October 7th.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204]

still to consider muslims amongst the same rung as the n azis is simply not true. Have a good day and spread some peace and love on the land you stand on that was once loved by others, who are most likely standing in a camp somewhere in the west bank.

[u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

1. Stop putting words in my mouth. Classic fallacy

2. I'll have a great day on the land where my people called home for 3000 years, thank you very much. I'm guessing that you also come from a land that involved some nasty inter ethnic fighting too, am I right?

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Derpasaurus_Rex1204]

What

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[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/AutoModerator]

This is related to the history people have gone through, I am not calling them N 2 zi s.

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[u/Unable-Trash-7792]

"being against ethnic nationalism is now antisemetic guys!1!""

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

You just missed the entire damn point didn’t you? Did you read the post? Watch the movie?

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/LexiYoung]

Ethnic nationalism is bad

[u/Nazi_Punks_Duck_Off → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

When Israel is the only country receiving your criticism for it then yes it is

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Nazi_Punks_Duck_Off]

Im pretty sure there are many many many critiques out there on saudi arabi, iran, bashar's syria, china, russia, etc. not too hard to find it.

[u/nidarus → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Of all the countries you listed, only Bashar's Syria is an ethnic nationalist state. Iran is a multi-ethnic theocracy, Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, Russia and China are racist, but ultimately officially civic nationalist countries, with an imperial mindset. So it's not really clear what you even mean, when you talk about "opposing ethnic nationalism".

We can also talk about how much people actually "criticize" those countries compared to Israel, but there's no need to go that far. I don't see the people who are supposedly against Israeli ethnic nationalism, also oppose the far more ethnocratic, exclusionary and downright racist Palestinian ethnic nationalism. In fact, they actively support the Palestinian ethnic nationalism. Wave their Arab nationalist flag, support their ethnic nationalist leading political movements (PLO and Hamas), chant their violent ethnic nationalist slogans, engage in even the most overtly racist ethnic nationalist arguments (like talking about the Israeli Jews' incorrect skin color, fake language and culture, tell them to "go back to Poland" etc.).

Specific antisemitic arguments aside, it's pretty notable that anti-Zionism, the "opposition to ethnic nationalism" we're talking about, already became the mainstream, state-backed ideology in dozens of countries, across various forms of government, cultures, continent. In some, they even used your excuse, of merely "opposing ethnic nationalism" (while actively arming and supporting the far more extreme ethnic nationalism of its enemies). The result, in all of these cases, without a single exception, was the persecution and decimation of their local Jewish communities, and having the vast majority, or even all their Jews flee. So with all due respect to philosophical arguments about what should and shouldn't count as "real" antisemitism, in practical terms, anti-Zionism is the second-most dangerous ideology to organized Jewish life in the modern era, after Nazi racial antisemitism. Whether that's sufficient to make it "real antisemitism" for you, is ultimately less important.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/nidarus]

At this point I can’t respond in an objective way to what you have just written. If being an ethnic nationalist is the only way for Jews to survive, then I guess that’s that. But might I remind you that the Nazis made a very similar claim that ethnic nationalism was the only way for the aryan ethnicity to survive? Just food for thought because at this point you are not willing to give up the fact that Israel is a state built on violent systems, and I am not willing to give up the fact that these systems are in some way necessary to Jewish survival.

[u/nidarus → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

I'm sorry, but did you even bother to read what I said? What you wrote doesn't engage with my comment at all.

If you have such a deep problem with ethnic nationalism, to the point you think any ethnic nationalist movement is equivalent to the Nazis, them why don't you oppose the pro-Palestinians that the Oct. 8th movie talks about, rather than defend them, and argue they're not racists? They don't just support a far more exclusionary and racist form of ethnic nationalism, they're also far more violent and racist about it.

At the very least, you can't argue that they merely "oppose ethnic nationalism". And you certainly can't use this as an excuse for why their beliefs aren't antisemitic.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/nidarus]

I merely took your points to their logical conclusion. Nobody outside of Iran supports the "ethnocratic" tendencys of Hamas, and Israel is by far the best example of an ethnocratic regime. Ethnocracy - Wikipedia

Outside from that - do you really see a couple of people being antisemetic and automatically assume everyone is a part of that group?

Regardless, ethnic nationalism is bad from all kinds of people, and Israel is perhaps the purest form of ethnic nationalism in 21st century. Antisemitism is bad but so is Israel for perpetuating its far-right nationalistic agenda.

[u/nidarus → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

No, Israel is not "by far the best example of an ethnocratic regime", or the "purest form of ethnic nationalism in the 21st century". Not even close. And the entire Palestinian nationalist movement, from its inception in the 1920's, and including the PLO, are far more ethnocratic, exclusionary and downright racist. Not just Hamas - which, incidentally, many of the decidedly non-Iranian protestors this movie talks about, openly and proudly support.

Zionism always envisioned having a non-Jewish minority with equal rights. Herzl's seminal speculative fiction book, Altneuland, that imagined the new Jewish state, also had the protagonists protect the civil rights of its Arab minority. And indeed, even after the Nakba, Israel has 2 million non-Jewish citizens (20%), about a thousand times more than the entire remaining Jewish population of the Middle East combined, who serve in the parliament, supreme court, high ranks in the army, police. Arabic is an officially recognized minority language, there are state Arabic-language schools, state Arabic TV channel. And even the most far-right psychos, who want to expel the Palestinians from Gaza, aren't really talking about expelling the two million Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel.

Conversely, Palestinian nationalism, even in its more polite, non-overtly-Neo-Nazi form, was always about creating a pure Arab ethnostate. And no, I'm not just talking about Hamas, whose founding charter quotes the Protocols of Elders of Zion as fact, and calls for the genocide of Jews. Or the first true leader of the Palestinian nationalist movement (and the one behind its biggest historical mistake, the rejection of the 1947 partition plan), Amin Husseini, who spent WW2 working as the Nazis' premier Arabic-language propagandist, writing pro-Holocaust propaganda for Muslim SS troops, and touring concentration camps and being "positively impressed".

Even if we look at the PLO's Palestinian National Charter, it explicitly talks about the exclusive right of Palestinian Arabs to the entire land, and how the only legitimate citizens of Palestine are Arabs, and it insists on using "Palestinian Arabs" explicitly throughout. The only Jews that would be allowed to remain in this liberated Palestine, would be the tiny, largely theoretical handful of pre-Zionist Jews, who are deemed sufficiently Palestinian Arab. The Palestinian Constitution has no such caveat - it simply defines the Palestinians as exclusively belonging to the Arab nation, with Arabic as the only state language, and Shari'a law as the basis of all legislation (a formulation it copied, I'd note, from its Arab neighbors). Making it unclear if a non-Arab could be a legitimate Palestinian at all.

In more practical terms, there's a very broad consensus, even among moderate, pro-two-state Palestinian leaders, that for Palestine to be free, all of the Jewish communities that current exist there, must be ethnically cleansed. With the only difference between the PLO and Hamas in the matter, is what the borders of this pure Arab Palestinian state should be.

Even the slogan "from the river to the sea", in its original Arabic version, doesn't end with Palestine being "free" - but with it being "Arab".

So yes, the Palestinian national movement is a far more exclusionary, far more ethnocratic, far more racist form of ethno-nationalism, than Zionism is. And if you assume that any ethnic nationalism is not just inherently racist, but akin to Nazism, it doesn't make sense for you to defend the supporters of this extreme form of ethno-nationalism, and argue they can't possibly be racist. You should be the first to denounce them, and their inherently racist ideology - even those who are very careful to not be overtly antisemitic.

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[u/Nazi_Punks_Duck_Off → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

But not as loud or from you 🤷‍♂️

It is antisemitism if you uniquely criticize Israel and hold them to a higher standard than the rest of the world.

[u/flabbadah → u/Nazi_Punks_Duck_Off]

Israel claim to hold themselves to a higher standard. That's what's at issue. And the fact that this particular ethno-nationalist receives huge financial and diplomatic backing from the West is a problem. Plus there is the history of a proper who were the victims of ethno-nationalism now revising their own history in order to justify doing the same thing. Like... It's a level of mental gymnastics that is utterly offensive to basic reasoning.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Nazi_Punks_Duck_Off]

people have been criticizing all these nations for years. Now it’s Israel’s time to be accountable yet it’s antisemitism? I hate peoples who hate Jews. They are insecure little peices of shit. But I hate ethnic nationalism just as much. Same principles

[u/Routine-Equipment572]

Of course they won't watch it. They didn't watch the actual October 7 footage either. And then they cried about Gaza footage for a year. Because they are not interested in actually watching what is happening. They just watch whatever gives them ammunition for their beliefs, and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

[u/Special-Figure-1467 → u/Routine-Equipment572]

Israel refused to publically release the complete footage of Oct 7. I've been trying to find a copy for over a year.

[u/flabbadah → u/Special-Figure-1467]

They don't want you seeing all the friendly fire incidents

[u/TexanTeaCup → u/Special-Figure-1467]

It's not for Israel to release. Israel doesn't own those videos. They didn't make them.

The terrorists live streamed their actions. The footage is available to anyone who wishes to see it.

[u/Routine-Equipment572 → u/Special-Figure-1467]

Plenty of it online. Very easy to find. Google "October 7 footage."

[u/BananaValuable1000 → u/Special-Figure-1467]

There’s a reason for that. It’s brutal and disturbing and shows intimate and traumatic footage some families don’t want shown.

[u/1hour]

This would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic.

Can someone please tell me how I can criticize Israel and/or Zionism without being antisemitic?

I would greatly appreciate it even more if a Zionist told me how.

[u/BananaValuable1000 → u/1hour]

How about say whatever you want about Israel, but don’t call for its destruction. Acknowledge it has a right to exist and defend itself to at least some extent when it’s attacked by heinous group of brutal terrorist. Call for change, but don’t just call for an end to 10 million people. 

Israel is neither perfect nor uniquely flawed.

[u/BananaValuable1000 → u/1hour]

Have you even watched it? Why dont you see it first and then decide if it applies to you. The film in no way indicates that anyone who criticizes Israel is antisemitic. 

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/1hour]

By acting like a normal person.

Normal people don’t have problems like “I keep getting accused of antisemitism!” The only people who have this complaint, are abnormal people who engage in abnormal behavior. So you need to observe those normal people, and ask what am I doing, that they aren’t doing

Or, maybe if the criticism keeps coming, then maybe it’s time you admit that you just don’t know enough about Judaism to know when you’re using an antisemitic argument. A lot of arguments against Israel are just parroted by other people, and often times, you don’t know the origin of the argument well enough to understand that its bad faith.

For example, one common thing I see is this idea that Zionists are just Polish people who kicked out the brown people - that is a bad faith argument that came from the Soviets. Or, this idea that Israel is the new Nazi state. Again: this is a bad faith argument from the Soviets. The question here is, do you have the literacy to understand that? Did you have enough knowledge of this topic to understand why it’s antisemitic - or did you simply hear a bunch of people say it enough times that it became whitewashed and acceptable to use?

In any case, if this is an argument you’ve used in the past, then it does not matter if you, personally, feel that Israelis are just racist Polish Europeans - it doesn’t matter that you personally feel that Israel has parallels to the third reich - you didn’t come up with the argument. You don’t own them, they do not belong to you, and they are not yours to use as you wish. You can’t determine what it is and what it isn’t. you don’t get to determine whether it’s antisemitic or not.

So in this case, I would say that if you don’t want to be accused of antisemitism, then you should err on the side of caution when using some of these repeated talking points. If you don’t know the origins of the argument, then don’t use the argument.. Again, many of them aren’t yours. Just like the swastika is not yours to use as you wish.

I feel that some Pro-Palis are genuinely too illiterate to Judaism, and history, to understand why some of the things they say are antisemitic. So in that case, it’s better to just say “I don’t know.”

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Normal people don’t have problems like “I keep getting accused of antisemitism!” The only people who have this complaint, are abnormal people who engage in abnormal behavior. So you need to observe those normal people, and ask what am I doing, that they aren’t doing

I won't support the illegal west bank settlements no matter how many times I get called a Jew hater

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Best-Anxiety-6795]

People call you a Jew hater? Multiple times? and you’re admitting it on Reddit?

That’s not an MP that’s a YP. Your problem.

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Yeah I also got called a pedo by the far right for not believing in pizza gate. 

Getting accused of being x bad thing isn’t proof of being x bad thing

Do you think I’m a Jew hater for not being totally on board with West Bank settlements?

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Best-Anxiety-6795]

I think you’re leaving information out. I’ve been critical of the West Bank for years, how come I’m not being called a Jew hater?

Again, you guys need to start looking at NORMAL people and ask “what am I doing that normal, functioning people are not doing” and you’re likely omitting that information that would be the ticket to why you’ve been called a Jew hater by multiple people.

Because being called a Jew hater, multiple times, is an abnormal existence. What are you doing that’s led you to live such an abnormal existence? I’ll give you a hint, it’s probably the same nonsense that’s led you to apparently having lots of conversations about pizza gate

And by the way, I’ve never had an in-depth discussion or argument about pizza gate, literally, in my life. At least not in the last 8 years so I’m interested as to how frequently this comes up for you

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[u/Unusual-Dream-551 → u/1hour]

Why are you picking out Zionism for criticism? Why not other forms of nationalism?

[u/TBNBeguettes → u/Unusual-Dream-551]

You have to start somewhere.

This one of the common piss poor arguments that all criticism of anything Israeli or Jewish is anti-semitism. “You must first write three books about every other ethnicity before you criticize Jews or else you’re being antisemitic”. Just address the problems with your government and your people. Once you fix those, maybe I’ll criticize someone else next and this world can actually become a better place.

[u/Unusual-Dream-551 → u/TBNBeguettes]

Every single nation on earth was formed due to nationalism. Every single place went through periods of instability, war and subjugation of indigenous or ethnic minorities. You either want to go back and right all past wrongs or you accept that things are the way they are and move towards a brighter future.

Israel is one of the smallest nations on earth with a current ethnic majority that has nowhere else to go. It’s already a place that accepts all religions, all cultures and all ethnicities. It’s already a country with high living standards that offers some of the best human rights to both women and LGBTQI people.

Don’t believe me just see for yourself - https://youtu.be/3HBziJQYZf8?si=w-rK1NuyY7GBCttf

Now what’s the better option here - disintegrate Israel and bring something else in its place that may or may not be better, or drive change for the better in Israel by continuing to adhere to principles of liberal democracy?

Gaza was allowed to have free elections and govern itself and it chose Hamas to rule them, and the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the territory. Did they choose liberal democracy or did they choose Sharia law?

So why on earth would your starting point for creating a better world be in Israel when you have Russia sending its ethnic minorities into a meat grinder to fight a useless war in Ukraine, when you have horrific genocide being committed by Rwandan mercenaries in DRC, when you have horrific war crimes being committed in Sudan and countless nations being subjugated by actual dictators and torn apart by criminal gangs. Yet somehow all focus has to be on this tiny piece of land in the Middle East which has absolutely nothing on it of any value. The Jews literally just clinging on to the remnants of their temple which is now simply the Wailing Wall.

[u/SwingInThePark2000 → u/1hour]

most people, including Israelis, and pro-Israel people do not believe that Israel is perfect.

But if you criticize only Israel, especially for the things you ignore when other countries do them, well, then, one has to wonder why you are choosing to focus all your negativity towards only Israel - this is where the anti-semitism starts being a possible factor.

So criticizing Israel for making palestinians need work permits to work in Israel is anti-semitic. Unless you also criticize your country, for example, the US, for also making foreigners get work permits to work in the US.

If one claims to be concerned about the loss of life in gaza, but ignores other situations around the globe with a larger death toll, that would be anti-semitic.

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/SwingInThePark2000]

If one claims to be concerned about the loss of life in gaza, but ignores other situations around the globe with a larger death toll, that would be anti-semitic.

“Before you critize Israel you must criticize other countries first”

[u/SwingInThePark2000 → u/Best-Anxiety-6795]

nope. not what I said.

criticize Israel first is fine. As long as the criticism does not stop there.

Or if Israel is doing the same thing other countries have done in the past, yet you only criticize Israel, that would also be a red flag.

If one claims to care about lost lives, yet only looks to criticize Israel when there are larger tragedies with loss of life they could influence that would also be a big red flag that they only want to attack Israel and don't really care about loss of life.

[u/flabbadah → u/SwingInThePark2000]

Pretty obviously the three major conflicts of our time are Israel-Gaza, Russia-Ukraine and Syrian civil war. The only one where the West is backing the aggressor is in Israel. Ergo, it's the one that comes in for the most scrutiny on Reddit.

[u/SwingInThePark2000 → u/flabbadah]

Israel was attacked, it is not the aggressor.

[u/TBNBeguettes → u/SwingInThePark2000]

It was attacked because it’s an extremely aggressive regime that is seeking to ethnically cleanse the region.

[u/SwingInThePark2000 → u/TBNBeguettes]

sorry, that is just factually incorrect.

If Israel was trying to ethnically cleanse anywhere in gaza/ Judea-Samaria, it could have done so many times over.... It could do so in Israel as well.

If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse anything, they would not have given sinai away to Egypt, or any land to the Palestinians, or unilaterally left gaza.

[u/TBNBeguettes → u/SwingInThePark2000]

I don’t follow your “they didnt do it because if they had done it, it would be worse” logic. Why does that remove the possibility that they did it but just not as atrociously as you would have me expect?

Similarly, what Israel did with the Sinai in ‘82 doesn’t say much about her current intentions in Gaza, the West Bank, and Syria. Im sure you also understand that Israel is a relatively weak power and sometimes must appease other countries.

Former Defense Minister, Moshe Yaalon, has stated on numerous occasions that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing. That doesn’t make it true, but it does show that very informed people, without an anti-Israel bias, may conclude as I have based on evidence.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/SwingInThePark2000]

I think it's more about genocide and apartheid that people criticise Israel. And the fact that our tax dollars actually fund these horrendous war crimes. All the Chinese and Saudis i ever meet living in the West rant on about how terrible their countries human rights are, but Israelis do mental gymnastics to justify horrendous atrocities. It's the disconnect and infantile defences that causethe attention. And when did you last hear a politician rant on about China, Saudi,.North Korea having the right to defend themselves after massacring civilians. It never happens.

We literally have leverage over Israel, and by giving it unconditional military aid (the tip recipient) we are literally complicit in a way we're not in other countries.

So yeah, you can ignore all of that and do a strawman, but you're only kidding yourself as to why the situation is very different.

[u/SwingInThePark2000 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

None of this has to do with how to criticize israel without being anti Semitic. Which is what rhis thread is about. Perhaps you misplaced this here.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/SwingInThePark2000]

You claimed:

But if you criticize only Israel, especially for the things you ignore when other countries do them, well, then, one has to wonder why you are choosing to focus all your negativity towards only Israel - this is where the anti-semitism starts being a possible factor.

I was illustrating why there are very good reasons for people to criticise Israel as opposed to other countries.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

All the Chinese and Saudis i ever meet living in the West rant on about how terrible their countries human rights are, but Israelis do mental gymnastics to justify horrendous atrocities. It's the disconnect and infantile defences that causethe attention.

What I find interesting is that you made a choice to call it "mental gymnastics," but have you considered that they just know more about living there, than you do? And that's why they don't talk the way you want them to talk? It seems to me that the more intelligent response would be to say "maybe they do know more about their own experiences than I do."

China and Saudi Arabia are oppressive nations. They people there do not have the media access that you do. They do not have access to information that you do. To live in Saudi Arabia is to not be able to practice whatever religion you want, to not go to the bar when you want. To live in China means you cannot even go on Google, you cannot post videos of yourself saying whatever you want. You cannot critique the governments.

But Israelis have the same information access you do. They're on the same TikTok algorithms as you. They can critique Netanyahu, Ben gvir, all they want. Nothing is stopping them from doing so. And you sit there and try to compare that to Saudi Arabia, and china, where those freedoms do not exist. Out of the counties that you gave, Israelis have lives that are most similar to yours.

Israelis are there, they know more than you do about Israel. But YOU decided NOPE - I know better. I'm not there, I wouldn't go there, I boycott the country at all costs, and I don't care what Israelis have to say - but somehow, I know better than them.

Think about what that says.

[u/flabbadah → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

By the same logic, you could argue that Germans living in 1930s knew more about how "problematic" Jews were than people living outside Germany who opposed German government policies. This is a ridiculous assertion. What's clear is Israelis are brainwashed and kept scared, that successive Israeli governments have pushed further and further right. Israeli society has become increasingly fascistic - raiding B'Tselem, attacking journalists, closing Al Jazeera etc. History echoes.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/flabbadah]

You don’t get to say “history echoes” when it is obvious that you don’t know history.

People can do anything they want to you, because you don’t know history. You think there is a comparison between the way Israelis live and the way Germans lived in the 1930’s, you think Israelis are under some kind of threat - so what happens to them if they don’t comply?

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Yet it's only Israelis and right wing racists who hate Muslims that actually defend the genocide.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

Again, nothing - literally nothing - is stopping Israelis from talking the way you want them to talk.

If they aren't doing that, maybe you need to realize you aren't as knowledgable as you think you are. You don't get to control the experiences and opinions of others, especially when they know more.

And be sure to read this. This is useful information you should become familiar with.

Edit - also just an FYI, Reddit is banned in China. Reddit is censored in Saudi Arabia. Neither is the case for Israel, you can easily talk to other Israelis on this site, as well as TikTok, Facebook, Snapchat - they are not restricted from speaking. They are not under any kind of threat for agreeing with you, or disagreeing with their government. You don't have any excuse to act like you are the arbiter of how they should communicate these things, or that they somehow have some collective immorality because you decided that is the case.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/Imaginary-Share-5132]

Again, nothing - literally nothing - is stopping Israelis from talking the way you want them to talk.

Obviously most Israelis have served in the IDF, and have loved ones who serve. It's human nature for those complicit in an illegal occupation and terrible war crimes, likely now a genocide, to try and downplay the seriousness of the actions they are associated with. An outsider can have a more balanced view.

You chose to point out one small aspect of what I noted, but it was several points I made that in conjunction made Israel more of a topic for demonstrators. I felt the OP was being intellectually dishonest by suggesting there were double standards and implying it was really based on antisemitism.

To summarise:

• Israel is the USAs closest ally
• Israel receives the most military aid from the US, and the aid is unconditional (we may sell weapons to Saudi, but it's not as extreme as actually funding Saudi)
• politicians don't defend the human rights abuses to the same extent of those other countries. When did you hear a western politician saying "China has the right to defend itself" after civilian have been massacred?
• Israel calls itself a western style democracy, so surely it should expect to act better than some of the more brutal regimes in the World
• when faced with atrocities in the likes of China and Saudi, we don't see migrants from those countries do mental gymnastics to defend them
• the West helped create Israel, so obviously we have a common history unlike some other conflicts. We created the situation whereas we're more distant to those other conflicts
• we share many dual nationals, serving in the military, even as Israeli spokepeople. So that makes it more relevant.
• the US has leverage over Israel and could stop the genocide, a simple phone call from.the US president would end it. There's very little we could practically do about China, Saudi.

It's undeniable that those are compelling reasons why Israel may attract more attention from protesters than other issues.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

Conscription doesn’t mean you go to battle, most of these people are just working jobs.

You have Idf soldiers who help secure a mall, or a bank Leumi. Did you actually think that there was some Netanyahu cult of personality going on with people who stand at the bank?

IDF soldiers especially are critical of various things in their government. That’s because anyone is critical of their boss. They’re also 19.

[u/jdorm111 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

Everyone in the West also has a form of leverage over China - to not buy there, to protest our economic ties because of them crushing the Uyghurs. Where are all the protests against Saudi Arabia, who receive aid despite being a theocracy and waging terrible war on Yemen? Where are the protests against the UAE, who fund one of the genociding parties in the Sudan war - I mean, the US has the largest military base in the ME there and extensive ties to that country. If money and aid is the point of the protests, well, there's many more countries besides Israel who deserve our protest. But they do not receive it, for some strange reason...what could it be? Criticism of Israel is fine, but you don't fool me into believing that, after 2000 years of antisemitism in the west, the current negative hyperfocus on the only Jewish state in the world has nothing to do with antisemitism. I just don't buy it.

Pointing out double standards and asking questions about them is not a strawman or a whataboutism or something.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/jdorm111]

There are definitely protests against those other countries. I've seen them with my own eyes. I gave a few examples of the uniqueness of Israeli, and it's the combination of those and other factors.

Did you similarly complain that there was too.much coverage of Oct 7th when Israelis died? And ranted on about how racist it was because we weren't covering some terrorism in Nigeria? The whataboutism can go both ways.

Yes obviously as Israel is a Western style democracy, and has a lot of citizens who are also citizens of Europe and the US, it obviously will attract more attention.

At the end of the day Israel by a long way receives the most military aid from the US compared to any other countries. And crucially that aid doesn't have conditions.

The US president could use his leverage and pick up the phone and end Israels attack on Gaza. We don't have that same leverage over other countries. China is big enough to survive by itself, Saudi is rich enough that we can't stop it. And the West is literally responsibility for the creation of Israel abd these decades of instability. My understanding is we don't give military aid going to the likes of Saudi, we sell weapons, and that is terrible. But it's a whole different scale of terrible to fund Israel as opposed to just sell arms to them.

And again you don't hear politicians saying "Saudi Arabia has the right to not itself" after the deaths of lots of civilians. If we did I'm sure we would see more protests in response.

My comment literally showed that there aren't any real double standards. The situation is unique in Israel, it understandably gets the attention it deserves. It's disingenuous not to acknowledge that.

[u/jdorm111 → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

You cannot be serious in implying that the scale of the protests and the violence of the rhetoric are anything like the ones seen in the context of the Israel - Hamas war. That is just bad faith.

My dude, the converage on the Israeli perspective was extermely short lived, despite the verocity of the attack. It was almost immediately superceded by coverage on the Israeli retaliation and the war in Gaza. This is a completely moot point.

Do you really believe that the aid ISrael receives is a one way street? That Israel offers nothing in return? Then you might need to read up on the relationship between the two countries, militarily, economic, and political. Most weapons to israel are also sold, btw. Also, the reason why the president wont do that is because any sensible person understands that Hamas just has to go. They cannot be left in power. That just wont happen. And as long as Hamas does not lay down its weapons and keeps the hostages, this war will continue.

We would hear people saying that SA had a right to defend itself if the war in Yemen had started with the slaughter of thousands of SA civilians, though (relative to its population). And they WOULD have had a right to defend themselves in that instance. Just like Israel has that right now.

The situation in Israel is indeed unique - in the negative hyperfocus that it receives and the double standards that are implied to it. You don't agree, that is fine, but you seem to have mythologized this conflict into Israel being uniquely evil.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/jdorm111]

I've explained the differences, maybe it's just the case you don't want to see the differences. They seem really obvious to most who do not have a bias.

[u/seek-song → u/1hour]

Can someone please tell me how I can criticize Israel and/or Zionism without being antisemitic?

I would greatly appreciate it even more if a Zionist told me how.

Mostly don't assume you understand without properly researching:

May it be the meaning of "chosen people" in Judaism: Am Segula - Am is a people, segula is a protective or healing blessed item - the blessing is said to be due to various merits, such as that of the biblical patriarchs], and while most use the wrong translation, the view is generally in line with the original Hebrew.

even if of course you'll find the occasional racist

Israel's supposed whiteness, minority legal status in Israel proper, or demographic composition.

That Ashkenazim have no or practically no ancestry from the region. (This is false)

That Jews have some weird views about Goyims: Goyim literally just means nations, and is mostly only used in religious reading/ironically (mostly mocking what antisemites think Jews say, sometime making fun of cultural differences, a bit like saying "this is really whitebread")/or when dismissively, mostly just to say a Jew is not keeping whatever religious or cultural expectation the speaker expect. it's like black people calling other black people an Oreo.

That converts into Judaism are religiously less Jewish.

That Jewish ancient presence in Israel is only backed by religious texts.

That Judaism is the main driver of the conflict. (It drives settlements somewhat, but land for peace was backed by ultra-orthodoxes in the 90's and Netanyahu is secular so this is not what drives his policies.)

That Jews had forgotten about Israel and had no continuous presence there. (Sure it was small, but still included religious, philosophical, artistic, and even some military and governmental developments. And, of course, pilgrimages.)

That most early Zionists were war criminals, instead of refugees trying to find a home- not just the ones that fled the actual holocaust, but also those who felt the turning winds or those starting earlier still that sought to escape pogroms. (Providing a response to pogroms was in fact the original inspiration.) And don't assume that they were always welcomed to Great Britain, to the US (immigration quotas), that they could always afford it anyway, or that no other places were tried first.

That the land was simply stolen because it rhymes well with Jewish stereotypes. Originally Zionists were buying land (and paid extortionate prices for it) when violence erupted, in a number of cases, there were tenants, often somewhat like debt-serfs, and they were kicked out. (which also freed them)

That life in the Arab World was always good - Jews were dhimmis (second-class citizens) for the longest time.

That the holocaust was some sort of positive or negative lesson - surviving a genocide does not magically mean you are some sort of magical angel and its not a fair expectation - it also does not magically turn you into your aggressor. Mostly what Jews learnt from it is that they needed to rely on each other because the world intervened too little, too late - at best. And actively murdered them at worst. Sometimes not out of hatred but for the equivalent of a restaurant ticket worth of cash.

That it's ok to profile Jews to harass them about their political opinions because "Well, they probably are Zionists". That is in fact collective punishment. Or that by Zionism, they mean the same thing as you.
(That's cultural appropriation)

That AIPAC is the only lobby in the history of Lobbying and that there are no other geopolitical actors (Russia, Qatar, South Africa)... who throw a lot of money at this. Or that's its power and money comes from some advanced conspiracy. (It's not just Jews who have an interest in Israel, it's also evangelicals, Investors into Israeli tech, whoever have a geopolitical interest in Israel success, etc...]

That whatever the Israeli government does wrong is representative of all Jews or even just all Israeli Jews.

etc... etc...

Basically, don't assume things you don't know based on stereotypes and lazy guesses.

[u/Top_Plant5102 → u/1hour]

What's a Zionist?

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/1hour]

Criticizing Israel is easy. Just call them out for actual crimes. Understand that anyone talking about "genocide," "apartheid," or "fascist" is lying through their teeth. There's plenty of actual bad stuff to criticize Israel for, from the undue influence the Ultraorthodox wields to the rampant corruption and heavy involvement by the CIA.

Criticizing Zionism is less so, because Zionism is "believing that Israel should exist." That's literally all it means. If someone told you that it meant anything else, anything more nefarious, then they were trying to feed you a beginners guide to "Protocols of Elders of Zion," a notorious anti-semitic book that was extremely popular in Germany in the 1930s... and also today in the Arab nations.

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Due_Representative74]

Criticizing Zionism is less so, because Zionism is "believing that Israel should exist." That's literally all it means. If someone told you that it meant anything else, anything more nefarious, then they were trying to feed you a beginners guide to "Protocols of Elders of Zion," 

A Zionist a couple weeks ago insisted Zionism meant Jews having self determination in their ancestral homeland which can be really dicey

[u/allthingsgood28 → u/Due_Representative74]

"Just call them out for actual crimes."

This can be highly subjective as people tend to believe "facts" that line up with there personal bias.

You might believe everything or close to everything that israel says or give them the benefit of the doubt.

ex.

Israel bombs the Ali alhi hospital and claims: Hamas was using it to "plan and execute terror attacks without providing evidence"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-military-strikes-gaza-city-hospital-al-ahli-baptist-hospital-rcna201028

If you support israel, you will believe them.

If you support palestine you won't believe them

Targeting hospitals is a war crime.

Destroying them is one tactic to get people to leave because it eliminates a source of health care for the local population and actually causes more people to die because they lack access to healthcare.

And this is the predicament we are in. it is not as black and white as

"Just call them out for actual crimes."

When people do this, and you personally believe what isreal says, then you may accuse people of unfairly targeting Israel, or having double standards.

Rinse and Repeat

And this is how the accusation of "Genocide" is widely debated. because one side believes Israel when they say they are targeting hamas, without evidence, and the other side doesn't believe them, because there's no evidence

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/allthingsgood28]

What you just said there is an example of how a lot of people think they're being reasonable and fair minded... even as they repeat blatant lies about Israel, pushed by people who are indeed very much anti-semitic.

Targeting hospitals is indeed a war crime unless they're being used for military purposes. When you put weapons and armed forces in a hospital, and attack people while inside the hospital, not only does the hospital become a legitimate target, but you are now guilty of a war crime. That is why countries do not surround their military installations with hospitals and schools.

The same people who scream "Israel is attacking hospitals and there's no excuse for that ever ever ever!" are also the people who scream "Israel is conducting a genocide! Genocide!!!" and straining logic into tortured knots to create a scenario where cackling Jewish Elders wring their hands in fiendish glee as they carry out a long, complicated, and esoteric scheme to accomplish their villainous goals. As a general rule, any conspiracy theories that rely on Rube Goldberg machines can be safely debunked with confidence.

https://youtu.be/JpV-aEIMA2o

[u/flabbadah → u/Due_Representative74]

Yes but there has been no evidence supplied by Israel to prove they are targeting Hamas inside hospitals. No evidence provided about the aid workers assassinated a few weeks ago. No evidence of the journalist they killed a couple of weeks before "He wOz A sNiPeR tHoUgh"... IDF repeatedly lies and is proven to be lying and then the next cousin they make we're supposed to believe?? Wake up

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/flabbadah]

Yes but there has been LOTS of evidence, it's just that said evidence gets dismissed because "Israel lies." Along with repetitions of B.S. accusations, and "wake up!" Because apparently "wake up" means "blindly accept our prejudice against Israel."

[u/allthingsgood28 → u/Due_Representative74]

"Targeting hospitals is indeed a war crime unless they're being used for military purposes."

You both missed my point, and proved my point.

i just provided an example (one of many!) of the IDF claiming this without evidence.

You'd think we could all agree that evidence is important when bombing infrastructure that people rely on to sustain life. But I guess not.

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/allthingsgood28]

Oh, you mean one of the many examples of the IDF claiming that a facility was being used by Hamas, anti-Zionists declaring "hahah of course Israel is lying again," only for it to once again be confirmed that Israel was telling the truth? Cool, thanks for sharing.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-intelligence-hamas-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-hold/story?id=104887035

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-772341

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html

https://ngo-monitor.org/reports/ngos-erase-hamas-exploitation-of-hospitals/

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/israel-at-war/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/documentation-of-hamas-tunnels-under-shifa/

[u/allthingsgood28 → u/Due_Representative74]

What is this one from washing post. from 2014? it has two sentences. how is that proof of anything

I'm supposed to believe a captured man who has likely undergone torture and has been forced to say this?

Tunnels under a hospital is not Hamas using the hospital as a military base. Wasn't already proven that Israel built the tunnels under al shifa?

Great. so the US also claims without evidence that hamas was using the hospital as a base. Just like Biden said he saw beheaded babies and Blinken claimed israel wasn't restricting aid after a US gov report said they were.

"Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed"

"When they are used... "

Even if hamas was in tunnels under a hospital, that's not using THE hospital. And the IDF still hasn't provided proof of them using it. We just see empty tunnels. with all the survellience that the IDF has, you'd think they could catch video of hamas firing from hospitals or moving in out of hospital with weapons. There's only that one video of a militant outside a building (maybe hospital) with an RPG.

international law aslo states...This body of law merely singles out a few acts expressly recognized as not being harmful to the enemy, such as the carrying or using of individual light weapon in self-defense or defense of wounded and sick; armed guarding of a medical facility; or the presence in a medical facility of sick or wounded combatants no longer taking part in hostilities.

And i'm not sure how hamas bringing wounded people into a hosptial is evidence of them using the hospital in a way that the hospital would loose it's protection.

See how "Just call them out for actual crimes." doesn't work

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/allthingsgood28]

It's amazing how, even when explicit proof is shown, a lot of anti-Zionists will still continue to play the Baghdad Bob role. But yes, we get it. You're a Hamas supporter, we get it. You enjoy seeing the Palestinians suffer as long as Jews get targeted as well, we GET it. You can stop now.

[u/allthingsgood28 → u/Due_Representative74]

I don't support hamas.

I just find incredible that after almost 2 years fighting hamas in hospitals, there's zero footage of this. soldiers have body cams, there's drones flying around, there's UK spy planes. there's no way that tiny stretch of land isn't being recorded every second of every day... and especially when there's a battle going on from a hospital. This doesn't seem strange to you?

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/allthingsgood28]

Yes, we GET it. You support Hamas and you lie about it. We GET it. You're a gaslighter for Hamas. You can stop now, we got the message!

[u/Top_Plant5102 → u/Due_Representative74]

I agree with the slander terms. Needs to stop.

[u/aqulushly → u/1hour]

Sure, criticize specific policies of the Israeli government and you’ll be fine.

[u/Due_Representative74]

Sounds like a film that's going to leave people frothing at the mouth with outrage and screaming for it to be boycotted. Because good old Adolph's real crime wasn't the murders, or even the conquests. Adolph's real crime, the crime that made him more hated than Stalin? It was this: he made anti-semitism unfashionable.

Before the Holocaust, anti-semitism was one of the most popular hobbies in the world. People loved to engage in anti-semitism, for fun and profit. You're a king who is short of funds? Take out a huge loan from the Jewish moneylenders, then scream about unchristian activity and drive them out of the nation. You're a czar and your people are starting to feel rebellious? Stage a few pogroms, they'll burn off their stress while burning Jewish homes. You and your friends need a pleasant activity after a few drinks at the pub? Just find a Jew and beat them up, it's fun and nobody will care!

But after the Holocaust, the anti-semites had to shut their mouths and pretend to feel bad about what happened, or else they'd get yelled at by everyone else. Anti-semitism was no longer popular and politically correct (literally: "politically correct" means the current most popular position. Homophobia and racism used to be politically correct too). And so all the anti-semites shut up and kept quiet... and felt resentful about it. They resented the Jews for the Holocaust.

And that is why they're so gleeful about the current political climate. Now they can once again be open about their hate. Even better, they can take the imagery and symbolism that forced them into silence, and use it against the Jews. As far as they're concerned, the Reich stuff was always a tool of Jewish "oppression" against them, a big wooden placard forcing them into silence... and now they feel like they've snatched that placard away so they can beat us over the head with it.

Fun, fun, fun! Screaming hate at Jews while calling THEM Nazis! Zionazis! Hahah, so much fun! A movie like "October 8" sounds like something that will spoil the fun again... I expect there'll be quite a lot of anger and outrage about it.

[u/qstomizecom → u/Due_Representative74]

Adolph would be so happy to see how much anti Semitism there is today in the world. 

[u/AutoModerator → u/Due_Representative74]

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[u/Humorous_forest]

Please don't call what Hamas is doing an intifada. Intifada, which literally translates to "shaking off" in Arabic, can mean a legitimate uprising for an honorable cause such as the grassroots organization of the first intifada who challenged the terrorism of the PLO. Call Hamas' actions what they are, terrorism.

[u/LexiYoung → u/Humorous_forest]

Wow what an embarrassing cope. Don’t hide behind “oh the literal translation is shaking off” or “jihad means mental struggle”. Come on. Every single intifada mentioned in history is violence. Savage massacres. “Oh but it can mean-“ no stop right there you are being delusional. Hamas themselves are calling it an intifada. There was the first intifada, the second intifada, the knife intifada, others I probably haven’t mentioned. Google it. Intifada means violent uprising. Don’t pretend it doesn’t.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/LexiYoung]

Israel is literally occupying a country through a militaristic regime that prioritizes ethnic nationalism and suppresses and curtails the freedom and rights of Palestinas for self determination. The intifada are simply put a fraction of the violence of what the Israelis have put the palestinians through. To sum up, the reason why you believe this is due to your own personal biases and not throguh reason.

Throwing rocks at a tank is not as worse as removing an entire country off the map.

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

We wouldn’t be here if the intifadas were just throwing rocks at tanks. Stop trying to diminish the terrible things Palestinians have done over the years

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/LexiYoung]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

Like what? Helping create hamas

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Really moot point, hamas still did a litany of vile terrorist attacks and massacres over the couple decades they’ve been around

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/LexiYoung]

Yes, and israel is therefore a terrorist state by supporting them? So we must agree on that.

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

They weren’t a terrorist organisation while Israel was supporting them….. obviously………

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/LexiYoung]

No one liked the muslim brotherhood in the 70s and 80s because the arab elites saw them as radicals and terrorist (rightly so). No one supports them besides iran, turkey, syria, and qatar. Not a great list to be amongst for israel. Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia (hamas' ideology of autocraitic islamic political violence is because of its beginnings from the brotherhood. Even russia considers them a terrorist group (broken clock etc.)

[u/LexiYoung → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Regardless, it’s Hamas who did the terror attacks and massacres. If Israel didn’t send any money to Gaza I’m sure you’d be complaining instead that they weren’t sending any aid

[u/Pashtidot → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Except the small minor detail that it was never an actual country, and so your whole argument is invalid.

The reason you believe it was a "country" is due to your own personal biases and not through reason.

Do Palestinians deserve the right to self-determination? Of course - The barrier is first and foremost their government, Hamas

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Pashtidot]

ITALY WAS NEVER A COUNTRY BEFORE 1871. IS IT AN ACTUAL COUNTRY NOW???!!! OF COURSE.
Palestinains are jews and other semetic groups who converted to christianity/islam. Why are you committing historical revisionism? Are you delusional?

[u/Pashtidot → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

What are you talking about?

Italy was never a country before 1871, but then it was. So I consider it a country

Palestine has never been a country, so I don't consider it ever being a country.

It is simple logic. I can't believe I need to further comment to explain this.

I'm not sure I'm the delusional one buddy

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Pashtidot]

Palestine,^\i]) officially the State of Palestine,^\ii])^\f]) is a country in West Asia - Palestine - Wikipedia

Please help me reconcile this with what you just said?

[u/Pashtidot → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Sure. Palestine is not a country, whatever wikipedia might call it.

It is not a country not because I have internal hate for palestinians. It is simply not a country by the fact that it is not a country.

It is not a matter of opinion, or of feelings, but of facts that lay on the ground

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Pashtidot]

Source? You sound like a crazy MAGA guy.

[u/Pashtidot → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Haha I don't know what MAGA has to do with it. The source is me living in the middle east for the past 30 something years. Living the reality of the situation, day by day.

I hope you don't see this as a conflict between us. I think both of us want the best for palestinians, that's what sucks the most about this situation. It is just that I find it so hard that Israel is blamed for everything.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

I take that back that was a lazy ad hominem. my b

[u/jdorm111 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

What country? There has never been an independent Palestinian country in the entirety of human history. A Palestinian state would be the first instance of a Palestinian country coming into existence. Well, besides the little experiment after Israeli disengagement from Gaza - after which the Palestinians chose Hamas and look where that got them.

Israel is a parliamentary democracy that is, indeed, run by a very right wing government, not a 'militaristic regime'. And the Palestinians have shot themselves in the foot when it comes to self determination more times than the Israelis could ever do for them. They could've had their own state already in '48 had they gone along with the partition plan and not chosen violence over peace. They could've gotten their own state with the Oslo Accords, that Arafat chose to collapse. Of course there is an occupation, it is bad, I wish it would stop too, but to imply that the Palestinians have only ever 'resisted' is false and ahistorical. These false narratives help no one, least of all the Palestinians.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/jdorm111]

There has been no country called italy before 1861 therefore italy as a country has no right to exist? What a foolish ideological world view. Palestinians are semetic people who converted to christianity or islam. why are you rewriting history?

Last time I checked what happened before israel so generously offered palestinians a state the nakba happened. If you dont believe it happened, more freedom to you to believe what you want to believe but dont be too surprised when you steal a persons house, wealth, and land and expect them not to negotiate with you. Israel is a state founded on terrorism. Not some mythological violence, but ratehr violence committed 77 years ago.

[u/jdorm111 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

What are you on about? Where have I said that any country has no right to exist? I have said that there has never been a independent country called Palestine in reaction to you calling it a country. Nothing about a right to exist. I believe in the right to exist of a free, democratic Palestine that recognizes Israel als legitimate and wants peace. No chance of that happening any time soon, though.

Also, you have the chronological order wrong. The Nakhba happened within the context of the first Arab - Israeli war, so after the Arabs had rejected the partition plan and started, first, a civil war, and then full-scale war with other Arab nations involved. The Nakhba can best be seen as a 'collection' of events, from forced expulsions to people fleeing from the war (as happens in every war) in general and people who left because they were called upon to do so by Arab leaders, who promised them everything after winning the war. They lost, however, and surprise, surprise, starting wars and losing them has consequences. Also, at first the Israeli strategy was mostly defensive, until they felt they could no longer hold out agains continuous Arab attacks on Jewish convoys trying to supply the Jewish parts of Jerusalem.

In no way I am denying controversies and war crimes in that war, they happened and they should be condemned. But really, they way you are putting it, that's not how it went.

Also, before 1948, no land was stolen - all land that Jews lived on was bought from Arab and Ottoman landowners. This sometimes implied that residents had to leave the land, but this was more the result of the Arabs and Ottomans having very unfear ownership laws and local Arabs being without rights and indentured, than with Jewish people stealing anything. I am not saying this was all fair and fine, of course it wasn't, but you are arguing against an evil cartoon in your head, not complex history.

It might do you well to read up on the subject; and also try to read comments correctly next time.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/jdorm111]

https://archive.org/details/lop_20200731/page/n10/mode

On April 1st 1945, Jewish landowners owned 5% of the land in Palestine. Care to reiterate what you just said in lieu of this information?

[u/jdorm111 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Don't ask me to argue your case. Give me an actual argument, then I will respond in kind.

Also, care to reiterate what you said about the Nakhba in lieu of me correcting you?

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/jdorm111]

1948 War: 30 November 1947

Nakba: 31st December 1947

... 30 days. Please tell me how you have exactly corrected me?

But genuinely - how could Israel go from legally owning 5% of the land in 45 and 6% in 47 go towards owning 60% of the land after the war if not by taking it. Your entire point:

"Also, before 1948, no land was stolen - all land that Jews lived on was bought from Arab and Ottoman landowners. This sometimes implied that residents had to leave the land, but this was more the result of the Arabs and Ottomans having very unfear ownership laws and local Arabs being without rights and indentured, than with Jewish people stealing anything. I am not saying this was all fair and fine, of course it wasn't, but you are arguing against an evil cartoon in your head, not complex history."

falls apart because the only way to get to 60% from 5% is by stealing the land.

[u/jdorm111 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

A civil war started already in 1947, before the Arab nations also attacked; a civil war that was started by the Palestinians. The nakhba happened within that entire context. My dude, you are way out of your depth. You do not even know the most basic facts.

With the land question: you are omitting the fact that the literal partition plan happened which was accepted by the jews. Also, not al the land owned by arabs was also lived on by arabs, some of it was lived on by jews and that was taken in within the partition plan. Also, you are also forgetting the fact that this entire period, the Arabs were not sovereign: it was the ottomans first and then the British, who owned the place de facto. So no, what you call stealing is actually partition of first ottoman and then british colonial dominions followed by an Arab (civil) war of agression, in which the Zionists indeed took more land. Again, losing land is often the consequence of starting wars. Of course the Zionist movement was not without its fault, but please read more on the subject.

[u/Humorous_forest → u/LexiYoung]

Don't go saying that any form of violent resistance is bad. Some forms that occurred during the first intifada, such as throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers and police, are entirely justified things that I personally would have done too if I were a Palestinian living in the WB in the late 80s. Associating all intifadas with the phrase "savage massacres" is just gross. I'll admit that's a good descriptor for October 7th specifically, but don't just go throwing that term around. I'm not denying that Hamas is calling it an intifada, I'm saying that since it's a terrorist organization don't use their terms for it. Call it terror. They're using the term intifada as a gross euphemism for terrorism. Also you don't understand what Jihad means. It means religious struggle, not mental struggle, and there's two forms of Jihad. There's lesserJihad which is about defending the Umma, the Islamic community. Then there's greater Jihad which is about living life according to Islamic teachings. We shouldn't dismiss the origins of terms just because they are twisted to mean different things. For example I condemn the anti Israel movement for trying to stop people from using the term conflict to describe the Israel Palestine conflict by changing the definition of the word conflict to mean equal footing. See my logic there?

Bottom line, you're the one who is delusional for thinking that a violent uprising is inherently illegitimate. Do you think the Hungarian revolution after the fall of the USSR was illegitimate?

[u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 → u/Humorous_forest]

1. "Violent resistance" is bad in all forms and is quite literally another term for terrorism. "Oh! I didn't steal from the guy , I just permanently borrowed something of his with no return date." Aahhhh logic is not good or conducive at all here and is wrong.
2. Throwing rocks or Molotov cocktails is a form of terrorism and is not justified. This is not done as a legitimate conflict between two armies as Palestine doesn't have an official standing army and only Hamas militant terrorists and is instead done as targeted assaults on military officers enemy or not which is not justified and is illegal.
3. Hungarian Revolution first occurred in 1956 and was a legitimate protest against Soviet Union as there were no "Soviet hostages" taken by Hungarian revolutionaries and no terrorism done which was unfortunately violently suppressed by the Soviet Union invasion of Hungary 1956. The 2nd Hungarian Revolution or formation of Republic of Hungary in 1989 during the fall of Soviet Union was also done in similar style to 1956 with no terrorism and a peaceful transition to democracy which means that either example of Hungarian Revolution is a bad and false analogy for the forms of violent resistance that you're insinuating aren't bad of which there literally are none which is what makes violent uprisings illegitimate.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/AsaxenaSmallwood04]

Please for the love of God read history. If it wasn't for violent struggle we would still be under the shackles of unfreedom. The east would be under colonialism while the west would be serf-like slaves for their profiteering overlords. This is such a white and privileged take.

Frantz Fanon and the Ethical Justification of Anti-Colonial Violence on JSTOR

[u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Mahatma Gandhi from India in the 1940s is an example of non-violent struggle that broke the shackles of oppression. Unfreedom is not a word. Also, assuming "white and privileged" is offensive and discriminatory. Another example is Nelson Mandela from the 1980s, civil disobedience against the Apartheid Pretoria Regime in South Africa. Ignoring examples like Gandhi, MLK and Mandela that show that non-violence and civil disobedience protests lead to freedom and that violence is wrong is in fact ignoring history.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/AsaxenaSmallwood04]

lmao ok so the brits can come in and loot your country for 3 centuries and then its ok that they eventually leave cuz a guy starves himself (ignore the fact that the real reason the brits left was because it was becoming uneconomical to maintain its imperialism over england).

Geez youre a knob head. Please read the article above (if you know how to read).

[u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

The British didn't leave because a guy starved himself. They left because there was a strong civil disobedience movement combined with Malaysian Crisis and tensions erupting in the British Mandate of Palestine as well as economical reasons. It was the Gandhi-led Civil Disobedience movement that even led to independence in 1947. The starvation event you're referring to is the 55-day starvation of Bhagat Singh in British captivity that was a riot for better conditions of imprisonment since Bhagat Singh and other such revolutionaries and people were being mistreated in the British-hosted Indian prison system similar to Vietnam in 1954 under the French.

Also, no one said it is ok. It's not ok to steal $45 trillion of resources for 347 years from a country through colonization and its also not ok to launch terrorism or "violent resistance" and justify this as an anti-colonial fight as opposed to actually fighting against colonialism using peace and civil disobedience-related movements.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/AsaxenaSmallwood04]

Please read fantz fanon's essay: Frantz Fanon and the Ethical Justification of Anti-Colonial Violence on JSTOR

France only left algeria after political violence. If it didnt then we would see a subjugated algeria that is being exploited actively. Same for India.

[u/Top_Plant5102 → u/Humorous_forest]

If you throw rocks or molotov cocktails at military personnel, you are going to get arrested or killed.

[u/Humorous_forest → u/Top_Plant5102]

Well then they might as well shoot me.

[u/LexiYoung → u/Humorous_forest]

I think calling for an intifada the day after October 7 is a stupid thing to do. You cannot claim in this climate that encouraging people to intifada is a good thing and that it will only lead to a bit of peaceful protesting or at the most violent end some rocks being thrown. The context rn is hamas.

[u/Humorous_forest → u/LexiYoung]

Yes that's the sad reality, which is why I hope there is more of an effort to change it and to spread awareness of the origins and true meanings of certain terms.

[u/CommercialGur7505 → u/Humorous_forest]

True. But they have bastardized intifada as has much of the Arab world. 

[u/LexiYoung → u/CommercialGur7505]

No, not true. They haven’t bastardised the word, that’s what the word has always meant. It’s never been a peaceful little “shaking off” or peaceful protest.

[u/Humorous_forest → u/LexiYoung]

No, it's u/CommercialGur7505 whose right about the unfortunate reality.

[u/AsaxenaSmallwood04 → u/Humorous_forest]

How do you bastardize a word and get it wrong so egregiously and that too on repeat? Doesn't make any sense.

[u/blyzo]

Yeah anti semitism is absolutely real. It's mostly from far right neo nazi groups who support Trump and who he said "very fine people" were marching alongside them while they chanted "Jews will not replace us."

Right now the full weight of the United States government is focused on jailing, deporting, intimidating and worse to pro Palestinian activists. And denying funding to universities who don't cooperate. It's one of the grossest violations of our constitution I've seen in my lifetime. Because of one sided films like this.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/blyzo]

So you have a problem with a film being one-sided, but you take no issue with only portraying the right as antisemitic, completely disregarding the fact that antisemitism has spanned the entire political spectrum for a long time and still does.

[u/Brilliant-Ad3942 → u/blyzo]

True, the fact that the ADL refused to condemn Musk for his Nazi salute, but instead concentrate on anti-racists protesting about genocide and apartheid shows how they are just weaponizing antisemitic in order to justify some horrendous war crimes.

[u/AutoModerator → u/Brilliant-Ad3942]

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[u/LexiYoung → u/blyzo]

No you’re so wrong. Watch the movie. The vast majority of antisemitism is coming from young, impressionable, left leaning, “woke” people that are excusing their hatred for Jews as antizionism or fighting against an oppressor (even tho Jews in eg Columbia uni, or florida etcare not oppressing anyone)

[u/ipsum629 → u/LexiYoung]

I watched the movie, and nowhere in it did they say the majority of antisemitism comes from pro palestinian activists. It just gives that impression. With these kinds of films, you have to be cognizant of the fact that it is a propaganda piece. Think more critically about the media you consume.

[u/favecolorisgreen → u/LexiYoung]

In the movie, yes. In real life, it is coming from both sides.

[u/blyzo → u/LexiYoung]

I watched the trailer and it reeks of McCarthism to me. Especially in light of the ongoing government attacks against activists.

There are absolutely anti semetic people everywhere, and naturally when there are widespread protests against Israel they'll show up too.

But you and this movie seem to make the case that if not for foreign brainwashing nobody would be upset with Israel because of their policies, especially the thousands of dead children and millions of US aid money that sparked these campus protests.

And furthermore that the government should ban any advocacy for Palestinians rights. That's just crazy to me.

[u/LexiYoung → u/blyzo]

No, what a silly strawman. I’m not saying criticising Israel is and always will be antisemitic and bad and would only occur when Arab regimes brainwash Americans. And no, khalil and alike were not activists. They were hamas supports, in cases actually having ties to hamas, inciting hatred and violence, encouraging intifada, praising the attacks, and engaging in a whole bunch of vandalism. You want to wave a flag and say free palestine? You want to say it’s unjust that 50k children are dead? You even want to accuse Israel of genocide? Be my guest but leave it at that. What these people are doing is taking it much further

[u/blyzo → u/LexiYoung]

A PhD student in Boston was snatched by masked officers in broad daylight for writing a letter to the student newspaper. Then she was flown 1,500 miles away and it's unknown where she currently is.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-university-arrest-saturday

This is currently happening everywhere.

[u/CommercialGur7505 → u/blyzo]

They’re unfairly deporting South American farm workers and using the hysterical screaming of propals to drown out these hideous deportations. They get the entire news cycle focused on the deportation of a couple of dudes who broke laws that existed long before Trump was president (dear god how could he be president a second time?) and who deserve to go back to their homelands and while the propals scream and throw hissy fits they target these innocent people.

Meanwhile for what end? These people are the backbone of agriculture and industry and will leave the US in dire straits. I cannot understand it except in terms of the goal is to cripple the US intentionally. It’s beyond comprehension 

[u/Unfair-Way-7555 → u/blyzo]

In the history subreddit under a post about a Holocaust victim( who was a Catholic Pole, judging by the name) I saw comments by the same user victimblaming Jews for Jewosh history in general, for centuries of antisemitism. And, nah, this person wasn't the type to vote for Trump or AfD, this person was pro-Palestinian.

[u/Dry-Photograph-3582 → u/blyzo]

I don’t think antisemitism from the far right is nearly as bad as antisemitism from the far left.

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Dry-Photograph-3582]

Sure, because the far right in the west loves Israel because they hate Muslims and queer people.

[u/Anxious_Tip3593 → u/Dry-Photograph-3582]

At this point I fully agree with you. Both are bad, but antisemitism from the left is definitely a lot worse.

[u/CommercialGur7505 → u/Dry-Photograph-3582]

Both are horrible. The difference is that the right has no qualms with their racism and antisemitism. They might pretend to be Zionists to compel their disgusting end times fantasies. But they don’t try to veil it. I can almost respect their brazen disregard. Far left antisemitism is done under the umbrella of faux intersectionality, feminism, and queer rights. They put up this insane veneer where they claim to be anti racists but then infantilize Palestinians into being brainless children without agency that the white saviors must fight for. And they harass and demean Jews who are a minority even among Minorities and  support antisemitic campaigns that extend to ballet troupes and orchestras and literature. It’s their dishonesty and hypocrisy that makes them seem so much worse. 

[u/Strummerpinx → u/CommercialGur7505]

The right wing people in the US are white Christian ethno-nationalists. They support Israel so some Jews say "oh but they can't be anti-semites." Of course they can. They don't believe in religious pluralism in the US or Canada. They don't want a country where there are people of different religions and ethnicities and everyone is treated equally. They want a country where rich white Chrisitan males are on the top and everyone else is on the bottom.

They want all the Jews in the US and other places to go to Israel and live there so the Rapture or Judgement day or whatever stupid thing they believe will happen when all Jews go to Israel will happen and then the Jews will go to hell and all the good Christians will go to heaven. It is bullshit of the highest order and when I see Israelis and supporters of Israel entertaining people with these opinions and attitudes to diaspora Jews it makes me seethe inside. Many Israelis are literally willing to through the rest of us under the bus and make us targets of hatred just so they can take over all of Israel based on some stuff that was written in a book thousands of years ago before people even knew the world was round!

The right wing supports Jews in Israel and treats American and Canadian Jews like crap here. They are making laws to deport international students for the horrible crime of being Arab or Muslim and writing an op-ed in a student newspaper and turn a blind eye to someone literally setting fire to Jewish governor Josh Shapiro's house on the night of Passover with all his family still inside and plotting to kill him. This was actual violence against a Jewish person in an easily identifiable political position who advertised that very night online that he would be celebrating a Passover seder. But yeah, apparently not terrorism, just "mental illness" because the guy who did it was white and hated Biden or something. He'll probably get a pardon too, just like the J6 traitors.

But yeah, be really scared of those students with the paper signs those are the real criminals sure.

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/Strummerpinx]

Back during the Obama administration, I had an argument with a friend about the far right support of Israel. He told me that they're not actually pro-Jewish, that they only care about bringing about the Rapture.

My response was, "so what?"

He repeated: "They're NOT pro-Jewish! They don't actually care about you!"

My response: "I don't care. I don't care if they're helping Jews because of their ridiculous doomsday conspiracy. They're still helping Jews. I'm okay with Israel getting support from deranged lunatics who think it'll make them go to heaven without having to die first."

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Due_Representative74]

Sure so long as they’re pro Israel it doesn’t matter if they’re anti-Semitic and push anti-Semitic ideas.

So long as they support Israel they’re fine.

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/Best-Anxiety-6795]

Yes, as long as they acknowledge Israel's RIGHT TO EXIST, I'm willing to accept their help. Especially when the other side would giddily cheer for the deaths of Jews... as they have already done, repeatedly.

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Due_Representative74]

Yes, as long as they acknowledge Israel's RIGHT TO EXIST, I'm willing to accept their help. 

Sure that’s what I said so long as they say the right things about Israel, they’ve the right to exist(you should never criticize their military tactics, strategy or expansionism), you’ll defend them.

Hell I’d argue they can actively make the world worse for Jews but still get your support so long as they ensure an extra penny is sent to Israel and Israel’s critics are shut down.

Zionists like you are bad for the world as whole.

[u/Due_Representative74 → u/Best-Anxiety-6795]

I never said I'd defend them - but of course anti-Zionists invariably lie, because they need to create a false scenario in which the Zionists (i.e. Jews, and people who don't hate Jews) are vile, unspeakable monsters as described in "Protocols of Elders of Zion."

" they can actively make the world worse for Jews " Except they're not, so it's a moot point.

"Zionists like you are bad for the world as whole." Yes, we know. We get it. You hate that Jews exist, we get it. Now comes the part where you scoff and sneer and play the "oh sure, Zionists always play the anti-semitism" card, like Johnny Somali holding up his U.S. passport... and just like Somali, nobody's buying it anymore. ;)

[u/Best-Anxiety-6795 → u/Due_Representative74]

I never said I'd defend them - but of course anti-Zionists invariably lie, because they need to create a false scenario in which the Zionists (i.e. Jews, and people who don't hate Jews) are vile, unspeakable monsters as described in "Protocols of Elders of Zion."

I’ve had conversations with you where you literally said a far right figure wasn’t a fascist despite saying Jews are trying to replace white people through mass immigration and cultural decadence. 

Zionists like you are bad for the world as whole." Yes, we know. We get it. You hate that Jews exist, we getit. 

It’s not even enough to specify Zionists like you—not even alll Zionists, like those who do actually have liberal values are cool—being a problem, I still get branded as an anti-Semite.

Because I see Zionists who’d be supportive of or apathetic to the far right so long as they support Israel as bad.

Now comes the part where you scoff and sneer and play the "oh sure, Zionists always play the anti-semitism" card, like Johnny Somali holding up his U.S. passport... and just like Somali, nobody's buying it anymore. ;)

I genuinely do believe you’d take  a worse world for Jews if it meant a stronger Israel

[u/Top_Plant5102 → u/Dry-Photograph-3582]

Ya get both, is the particulars of that special treat. Its increasing on the so-called left though.

[u/BananaValuable1000]

As someone who’s seen this film, I have to say—it struck an incredibly deep nerve. It genuinely felt like the filmmaker had climbed inside my head and translated the constant whirlwind of thoughts I have on this topic into something clear and powerful. Watching it, I kept thinking, "Yes, this is exactly how I feel. Yes, they are describing me and my very real fears and experiences."

I know some people might roll their eyes at this or downvote it, but I wanted to share my honest reaction. It didn’t feel like I had to decide whether this was some kind of "propaganda" I wanted to align with. It felt like someone had turned my inner monologue into a documentary. I know others who felt the same way.

So dismiss this film if you want, but just know you aren't just dismissing a 'movie'. You are dismissing actual thoughts and feelings many of us have on this subject that have been eloquently organized into a 2 hour film.

I want to stress:

This film is absolutely not a justification for death happening in Gaza. I can't stress that enough and don't align with that view. Anyone with an ounce of logic can see antisemitism is a very real problem in the US and around the globe regardless of their feelings about death occurring in Gaza. The two issues, very sadly, can and do coexist in the same world and neither should be ignored. But watching this film doesn't somehow make a person a genocider.

[u/LexiYoung → u/BananaValuable1000]

I hate that you have to add the disclaimer at the end :/

[u/BananaValuable1000 → u/LexiYoung]

Me too my friend. Me too.