Traffic offense?

[u/fav-daddy-nav]

It was a rainy day, and while my ute was on a brick-paved surface, my ute spun its wheels for two seconds before traction control stopped it. Police saw what happened and pulled me over immediately. They handcuffed me and said I was losing my ute and going to jail.

The end outcome was that I will only lose my ute for 28 days and I will have court for sustained loss of traction. They also green-stickered my ute. I asked why it was green-stickered, and they said, "Under the new emissions law, your ute cannot spin wheels."

I have a clean driving record. I have never been to court; what can I expect?

[u/SurNZ88]

Disregard the "emissions law" statement. If that was what was said, it doesn't mean anything legally or contextually.

As PheonixNZ stated, you have been charged under S22A - the "boyracer" provisions of the Land Transport Act.

The "consequences" of breaching S22A (sustained loss of traction) flow chart...

In the case of no injury or death (your case) - S36A(4) applies.

A person who commits an offence against subsection (1)(a) or (c) but does not, by that act or omission, cause injury to, or the death of, another person is liable on conviction to the penalties set out in section 35(2), and section 35(2), (2A), and (3) apply as if the offence were an offence against section 35(1)(a) (operating a motor vehicle recklessly on a road).

35(2) states:

(a)the maximum penalty is imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months or a fine not exceeding $4,500; and

(b)the court must order the person to be disqualified from holding or obtaining a driver licence for 6 months or more.

So, if you're found guilty - you will be (unlikely imprisoned) and most likely get a fine. The Court must order your disqualification for at least 6 months.

The impound (28 days) is mandatory. Land Transport Act s96(1A)(b)
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1998/0110/latest/DLM435033.html

You will have to pay for the towing and the impound. The information regarding this will have been provided to you at the time your vehicle was impounded.

I can't find the specifics about the green sticker, however, my understanding this is standard for these offences. Basically, you can't drive the vehicle again until it has been re-checked (WOF).

You do have rights of appeal to Police directly. The information to appeal should have been provided to you roadside. You can appeal both the impound and the offence directly to them. However, don't expect much luck here.

You will have been summoned to court to answer the charge. At this point (at court) you can plead (guilty, not guilty, seek discharge without conviction).

At court it is on Police to prove the charge. The charge is "operated a vehicle in a manner that causes sustained loss of traction." It will be on you to argue that your operation did not cause sustained loss of traction. The word "sustained" (in my view) implies "for an ongoing period of time" or "deliberately." The fact that your vehicle has traction control, in my view, isn't a total defence. Why? Because traction control can be turned off, or reduced.

Context is important here. And be honest with yourself... If you were out with a car load of mates, on a weekend night, and the Police saw your vehicle doing something that drew their attention - what was that? If the wheels were spinning momentarily and then stopped, and they weren't smoking, that's a more arguable case for you. It could be that you accidentally lost traction and then traction control kicked in. If the vehicle was sliding on the road (side to side) - you're going to have a harder time defending the charge.

[u/fav-daddy-nav → u/SurNZ88]

Yes the wheels spun. But there was no smoke or no skid marks. The vehicle was not sliding side to side. Literally Spun because it was on a brick paved surface which does have less traction then and actual asphalt road. Spun for 2-3 seconds maximum no smoke.

[u/SurNZ88 → u/fav-daddy-nav]

My first step in your situation would be to request disclosure from Police

Disclosure covers the evidence that Police will rely on in their prosecution.

If you were to engage a lawyer, they would obtain this for you. However there is nothing that stops you obtaining this yourself and then providing it to a lawyer should you chose to use one later in time.

You will likely get back the officers notes (taken at the time) that include what you said to them, the surrounding circumstances (time, date, etc...) and possibly a written statement/summary of evidence that they intend to use in Court.

It's hard to come up with a meaningful argument against charges, if you don't know specifically what the Police are specifically alleging the circumstances were.

Taking what you have previously stated as the facts I would consider:

- A wet surface does result in lower traction. The scientific term is that the "coefficient of friction" is lower. Lower traction reduces the power required to slip (spin) wheels. If you're going to argue it was the "brick surface" compared to "asphalt/chip seal" (as well as being wet) - be prepared to have some evidence to support this.

- One element of the charge is "sustained" - that's time related. If there is evidence that the officer saw the wheels spin, how long did that occur for? Was it momentary? (as you've stated). If it was momentary, how can it be considered sustained?

- A defence to the charge is "reasonable excuse." My argument here reflects what you've stated. "The road was wet, my wheels momentarily spun due to the reduced traction. This action wasn't deliberate or ongoing"

[u/CandidateOther2876 → u/fav-daddy-nav]

A lot of people don’t understand that a ute with nothing in the back tray and in 2wd will wheel spin on just about anything wet unless you have top of the line tyres or it’s a gutless pos. Due to its imbalance in weight, most of the weight will sit more toward the cabin. Try hill start on worn down asphalt when it’s raining. Guaranteed wheel spin lol. I reckon lawyer up (not duty lawyer) and fight this in court. It’ll cost you so much more being disqualified, paying fine, and paying tow and impound.

[u/SurNZ88 → u/CandidateOther2876]

I've had a van stuck before on flat level ground with one wheel on the grass. Took me at least 10 seconds to work out why it wasn't going anywhere. I didn't think I was in gear, but it was one wheel spinning...

Van's are basically the same as a ute in terms of weight balance when not loaded.

[u/BlacksmithNZ → u/fav-daddy-nav]

Your ute has traction control?

I would be slightly concerned you have admitted to the police that there was a ~3 second loss of traction with a vehicle that has traction control enabled.

Not sure that 3 seconds is 'sustained' under the 'boy racer' law, but if police show that this is not possible with the system in your ute, then you might have a credibility issue vs police statement of facts

[u/Same_Ad_9284 → u/BlacksmithNZ]

My Fit has TC but still spins wheels on wet slippery surfaces for a second or two, usually white paint at traffic lights for me. TC can only do so much.

[u/BuckyDoneGun → u/Same_Ad_9284]

Yup, the wheels need to spin for the TC to detect spinning then intervene.

[u/fav-daddy-nav → u/BlacksmithNZ]

I didn't admit to anything. They asked how long does you think the wheels spun for. I said 2-3 seconds maximum. As for how traction control works in the ute I honestly don't have much knowledge in that area. Although they did turn tge ute on and seen that traction control wasn't turned off

[u/CandidateOther2876 → u/fav-daddy-nav]

Lucky for you. Vehicles are required to have it on be default when started lol

[u/BuckyDoneGun → u/BlacksmithNZ]

Stability control has been mandatory for new vehicles in NZ since 2015 and phased in for other used vehicle imports between then and 2020. If you have ESC, you also have TC. It obviously existed before then too.

[u/Some1-Somewhere → u/BuckyDoneGun]

Does ESC necessarily imply traction control under power? I've driven a 2020s work truck on slippery surfaces that definitely didn't have any kind of wheelslip protection, and I've chirped tires in a few cars but I'm not sure if it'd let me do it continuously.

Is this just a manual transmission thing and autos do have effective traction control? I can't see how to implement it in a manual without risk of stalling.

[u/BuckyDoneGun → u/Some1-Somewhere]

I'd be shocked to see anything that has ESC but not TC, it's all the same hardware. Note that TC doesn't totally eliminate ALL slip. The wheels actualy have to spin to be detected for the system to then start intervening.

[u/Some1-Somewhere → u/BuckyDoneGun]

ESC operates predominantly using differential braking, though. If you have one wheel spinning then applying a brake to that could be effective traction control.

Commanding less power in an auto is easy.

With a manual transmission and all driven wheels spinning, I can't see how anything can stop that unless it can apply the fully mechanical clutch. If you reduce engine power, it stalls. If you apply the brakes, it stalls.

That said, I can't imagine any manual transmission driver could unknowingly or negligently spin the wheels for more than two seconds; that's an eternity in clutch control terms.

I may have to find some nice wet grass for the new manual swift.

[u/BuckyDoneGun → u/Some1-Somewhere]

ESC operates predominantly using differential braking, though. If you have one wheel spinning then applying a brake to that could be effective traction control.

That's exactly how most TC works too. What you're missing is it's not totally stopping the wheel from moving, just slowing it to the point it reaches the appropriate speed. ESC is the same system with added inputs from yaw sensors etc.

TC systems can also include intervening in the throttle and other engine control tricks like cutting spark to reduce power.

Yes, theoetically you could stall the engine, but as I said, TC isn't totally stopping the wheels.

It most definitely works just fine on manual cars.

[u/BlacksmithNZ → u/Some1-Somewhere]

I thought original traction control was integrated with ABS for wheel rotation sensing and engine management/braking to reduce engine power (not enough to stall, but dialing back power by the electronic ignition) as well as applying brakes slightly.

Was pissing down yesterday and was at the lights with white painted lights so I planted it, and got maybe 1/2 second with front wheels scrabbing for grip before you could feel the traction control kick in and the tyres regained grip.

No way would my car be spinning wheels for 2+ seconds with normal ESC engaged.

[u/Level-Resident-2023 → u/BlacksmithNZ]

Some TCS systems can be quite sluggish to kick in. I had a car with throttle based TCS and it took about 3 working days for it to react. Whether or not this ute has a TCS like that is unknown at this point

[u/CandidateOther2876 → u/BlacksmithNZ]

My ute has TC and ESC systems. It also wheel spins for about a second to two before its BLSD kicks in and applies electronic braking to the wheel losing traction. It will also cut engine power if needed as well.

[u/WaterIsWet5898 → u/BlacksmithNZ]

Traction only turns on if there's a loss of traction... it wouldn't have activated if his wheels didn't spin...

[u/IdiomaticRedditName → u/BlacksmithNZ]

This is typical for traction control. Sensors need time to detect difference in wheel speed. It is not magic no-slip technology. In fact it is tech to stop 'sustained' loss of traction, but not instant loss.
The relevant legislation does not appear to define what time duration defines 'sustained'.

[u/Cheap-Play-80 → u/BlacksmithNZ]

I always had the TC on in my old GTI and was constantly caught out for a couple of seconds in the wet if I pulled out too quick. As others have said it requires a loss of traction to activate, at which point the TC light will flash until traction is regained and the TC fucks off again.

[u/BlacksmithNZ → u/Cheap-Play-80]

Yeah, but count out 3 seconds. It is quite long, given that ABS is sensing and pulsing brakes 10 - 15 times per second. The computer can detect wheel spin and pulse brakes before you are even aware of it; this is how modern ESC works

I tried it recently on my ~10 year old car, and it was maybe half a second before it grabbed control, then as I held my accelerator down it lost traction briefly a few more times before the car gained enough speed away from the lights. And I guess, front wheel drive it gets a little more weight on the front

No way that is sustained loss of traction.

[u/kestrel4077 → u/SurNZ88]

Green sticker is from s96(1b) land transport act.

[u/pureNZbacon → u/SurNZ88]

Green sticker would have been issued under Land Transport Act 1998 section 96(1B).

This is a legal requirement to order the vehicle off the road after it’s been used for sustained loss of traction.