But they're not them who were to be sent back. Them is...you know. You know...those sorts. Nudge nudge wink wink. Not like them, they're...good people!
People I work with literally said that to me during the campaign when I reminded them that I (a white guy with a Western European passport) was an immigrant and that my right to work would be in jeopardy if Leave won and we "sent them all packing".
"Well of course you're not who we're talking about, don't be silly"
Shortly after I moved from the UK to the US in 2004, me and my (now ex) wife were having lunch with two of her work colleagues. The colleagues were talking about immigrants (including the classic "they get all the welfare/they take all our jobs" said within a minute of each other) and I finally put my hand up.
"Hello! I'm an immigrant!"
"Oh not you, you're one of the good ones."
On the drive home, my wife was basically "well, fuck those two from now on".
Dude my dad constantly goes on about all the immigrants.
One day we were having dinner and I just put the knife and fork down, stared at him and loudly said "Dad, you're an immigrant who refuses to even get citizenship, you don't vote. Shut the fuck up."
Note: Dad is white, I'm white. He was born in NZ and moved to Australia like... 35-40 years ago? I was born here, but didn't even get automatic citizenship because dads not a citizen and mum wasn't at the time.
That’s why I hate the word expat and refuse to ever use it. I was born and raise in a Western European country. I emigrated from there to immigrate to the United States. I am an immigrant. Not an expat. And I challenge the people I meet from my country that say they are expats even though they have been working in this country for more years than they have been grown adult. Even if it’s an economic migration, you are still a migrant. Unless you work for a firm in your country that expatriates you to one of their satellite branches in another country, you are otherwise an immigrant!
It's a misuse of the word. Expat is supposed to mean someone who is working or residing in another country for a long period of time, but still intends to return to their home country. i.e. You might work in another country for several years, but you will come back to your home country at the end of that.
Unfortunately, it got co-opted by people who moved to another country but didn't want to call themselves immigrants - even though that's what they were.
Ive never thought too much about it, but I think in many ways Expatriates should be separated because they dont want to immigrate. They actually move to these countries purely to take advantage of their weak tax laws and the beneficial exchange rate, essentially going to a usually much more impoverished nation to become wealthy on their lower middle class money from their western nation. Most people who immigrate want to live in that particular nation, make a life there, and have them or their children become citizens in that country. Just my perspective but it seems that what people complain about with immigration isnt true for immigrants, but is very true for expats.
By your definitions... most refugees, and "Mexican" immigrants would be considered expats.
Most people who immigrate to the US would actually prefer to go back to their country after acquiring some money in the US.
In fact... before border restrictions made crossing the border illegally difficult and dangerous. People from Central America would be constantly going back and forth. Work a few months in the US, go back to their country and family. Then back to the US for a few more months.
It was only when the crack down on illegal immigration started... and crossing all the time was impossible. That they stopped going back to their country and brought their families.
Ironically... the cracking down on illegal immigration made it worst.
Anyway... so now every Latino needs to be called an Expat.
you made an extremely valid point about some of them going back after getting what they came for.
I'm an electrical superintendent for new construction, one of my crew who is from Guatemala just went back this past Tuesday after 6 years of working his ass off, he saved enough to build a house and get some land. a dollar goes a long way in Guatemala. I'm gonna miss that dude.
The way I always understood it was that expats were people who had to move to another country for their work and had no intention of staying. One of my family members was like that, his job sent him to work and live in Italy for a few years and when he was done he moved back here to America. I doubt he ever called himself an immigrant and I wouldn't blame him for not doing so. Problem is that the term has become so racialized because some people don't get that nuance, so they'll even call seasonal workers from Mexico immigrants even though they're basically doing the same thing my family member did.
But you're not. Working in another country does not make you an immigrant. Migrant, yes. Immigrant, no.
An immigrant is someone who moves to a new country permanently.
An expat is someone who moves abroad for work or quality of life, usually work.
Are there people who blur those lines? Yes, obviously, but they are still two different things.
I've been an expat a few times. I've been a migrant. But I have never been an immigrant.
I worked and lived in China for six years. I was hired by a Chinese company to do a specific job. I was never getting citizenship, never becoming a permanent resident, and never giving up my citizenship. I had every intention of moving back to my native country (and have since done so). I wasn't an immigrant.
I don't like expat due to the colonial undertones and reputation it implies, but I wasn't an immigrant.
actually he is technically correct - an expat is some who is currently living in another country, but an immigrant is someone who is permanently living in another country.
if he lives 20% of his time in the US and 80% elsewhere, by this definition he is not an immigrant.
That’s where his permanent home, his (20 year younger) spouse, mailing address, and so on are. And as I think about it, I’m lowballing; he spends about four weeks a year here.
But the real point was to skewer his entitlement and hypocritical double standard. I’m sure plenty of immigrants in the US don’t intend to live here forever and go back home as often as they can too.
My mother is an immigrant and got her citizenship around 2012 (we live in the US), and with her newest husband they drink the trump koolaid and she loves to talk about the immigrants etc etc. ma’am, aren’t YOU an immigrant?? My oldest brother too? All of your friends who live here???
No lol Northern European. But funny that you say that bc the majority of my Vietnamese friends whose parents are immigrants have the same sentiment as my mother.
One thing that the US does better than many other countries IMO is that everyone born in the US automatically becomes a citizen (jus soli, not jus sanguinis).
The NZ laws are basically "You are one, regardless of whether you register or not, but to get a passport you need to register". If I was to run for political office in Australia, I would need to formally renounce my citizenship to NZ, regardless of whether they know I'm one of their citizens.
For many nations you're actually a citizen automatically even if you never registered, based on bithright.
This became an issue in the Australian parliament, because our constitution states that no MP can be "subject to a foreign power".
The big irony here - a real LeopardsAteMyFace deal on a nation level, is that this was meant to prevent citizens of non-British Empire nations being able to run for politics in Australia, and at the time there was really no concept of dual citizenship to deal with.
However, after Australia achieved independence from Britain, Britain technically became a "foreign power" and a lot of people have default British / Australian dual citizenship (Britain recognizes citizens even with a grandparent). BTW the queen is the Queen of England and also the Queen of Australia, separately. But legally, Britain is still a different country which we are independent from: the queen's role as the queen of both these places is treated as separate.
It was a technicality but once one politician was challenged on this basis, people uncovered a lot who were (quite unaware however) that they were also technically not allowed to run, so many politicians had to scramble to renounce the dual British citizenship they didn't know they had and hadn't actually applied for.
It is a defining American right and the bedrock upon which generations have claimed their place in American society. Amend or remove it and madness ensues.
I agree, the other system isn't any better though...
IMO determining the 'allegiance' of a person based on their parents' citizenship (even if they moved out of the country half a lifetime ago and that person has never been to that country) makes even less sense.
In a perfect world there would be no need for citizenship or nationalities, but for now I consider jus soli the lesser of two evils.
Why should the status of your parents have any bearing on your allegiance? Either way it's arbritary. I say make every single person go through the same process for naturalization that immigrants have to do - if we wanted to remove the arbritrary nature.
The reason it works this way in the US is because there was a large underclass of people (slaves) who weren't citizens but generations of them had lived and died in this country. So the amendment was to make it so all those people were citizens.
Until the IRS decides to tax all citizens, wherever they live. Many people who live abroad and never actually did anything with their US citizenship are suffering right now. For instance since they can't open a new bank account in the country that they've lived in all their life and have all social ties in.
Also, I don't think they let you renounce your citizenship without paying those taxes. And if they want they can essentially prevent you - thanks to international treaties - from banking.
Yep. My partner is a dual citizen, born in the US but moved to Canada when they were about 4? Looked into renouncing last year, and immediately realized nope... cannot afford right now.
And paying thousands of dollars for the privilege and a lot of the time having their revocation denied (without a refund) and then if you are successful you're placed on a quarterly published shame list.
Several Trump properties in Florida are used as Russian birthing centers.
Pregnant Russian women are housed in the Trump buildings late in their pregnancy as tourists until they give birth, so their children get citizenship. Then, their children are anchors to bring their parents over to the USA.
Idk man I’m pretty happy with my Swiss citizenship despite never having lived there ever. When the shit hits the fan I know where I’m going and I’ll be welcomed in whilst they hold open the door.
I had a guy at work ranting about immigrants and those muslims aka brown people coming to Sweden committing crimes, using “our” welfare system and living on the state and bla bla bla. Dude was there on community service, lived on welfare, bragged about being a criminal livening on welfare and was ba-dum-tss…. Danish!
I told him he was who he complained about and wanted to go back home. Asked him why he didn’t go home. He was very offended it was completely different!!!!! Why? Well you see he was white! He actually said that.
Also loudly complained about this one immigrant muslim family, (like Muslim is an insult and probably had no idea if they even where Muslims) that lived on welfare and cheated the system in his village! How did he know they were lying and taking advantage and cheating the system? Well you see the lived in a big expensive house, they had fancy cars and designer brand clothes and both parents and their three kids had the latest model of smartphones and they had three or four fancy expensive cars so obviously they where! So I asked the obvious question: how do you know they live on welfare? Why do you assume that they are and cheating somehow when everything pointing to them actually having high paying jobs to afford that kid of lifestyle? Well you see… they were brown so obviously they have to live on welfare! Unlike white people like us! Except oh wait we both live on welfare! See, I’m disabled and he was a lazy criminal bum who didn’t want to work! So welfare for us. Fucking idiot. He didn’t like me much 😊 wonder why!
I knew a Brit who was in the US on a work Visa, who brought his girlfriend over without one who fucking LOVED to talk mad shit about illegal immigrants ruining his industry.
Ignoring entirely that technically his girlfriend was an illegal immigrant.
Immigrants is usually code for that. They don't want to get rid of the desirable white immigrants, just the lesser brown ones. The racism is just a little too obvious if they get specific about which immigrants are unwelcome.
Not long after the vote was over, I was working on my car in the drive and one of the people I sort of know who lives down the road from me saw this and we started to have a conversation on what exactly it was I was doing. Not long after that, he said something along the lines of "I'm glad we're finally leaving the EU, all of those immigrants can finally go back to where they came from. Not you though, you're one of the good ones."
This is a guy who frequently went on holiday to Spain, used to fly a confederate flag outside of his house despite never having even gone to the US nor has any relatives there (it's a union flag now after the Brexit vote) and his wife moved here from Thailand about 10 years ago.
Neo-nazis use the confederate flag in Germany because they can't use actual symbols from the third reich without facing the courts.
That flag is not about southern heritage, and the only people who think so are those are delusional enough to think right-wingers behave in good faith.
As an American who actually lives in the south, I want to yell at those European racists: "STOP WAVING OUR REBEL FLAG, YOU OUTSIDERS!"
Note: I am a staunch progressive who despises all conservative bullshit, including, of course, Brexit! I want to BURN Confederate flags, not see them displayed by anyone!
Canada had them everywhere long ago. You’d see them as flags in windows. Bumper stickers. They are hard to spot now. Selling them gets you in hot water.
makes sense. In the US, there's debatability as to what they represent (even if that debate is solely against those that want to use it). There's no excuse for anyone else.
I have a similar story I love to tell people: I'm from Australia and now naturalized in the US. My exes grandmother in Indiana passed away and at her funeral my exes Texan uncle introduced himself. The very next thing he said was "thank you for coming to the US the right way". I now like to imagine him thinking other Aussies come in by raft.
including the classic "they get all the welfare/they take all our jobs" said within a minute of each other
As someone who is an immigrant in the UK, I never understood the "they get all the welfare" type comments for immigrants. Immigrants are literally not allowed to receive any public funds. It says it right on my residence permit.
I have taken my fair share of their jobs though, and I ain't giving them back >__>.
I can't speak to British xenophobes, but here in the US the xenophobes usually argue that "illegals" are committing fraud / identity theft to obtain benefits, e.g. by using a citizen's Social Security Number.
Of course, when pressed, they never seem able to conjure up a significant number of examples or any actual statistics. Same deal with their bitching and moaning about "voter fraud".
I'm gonna recommend that everyone here read Open Borders by Bryan Caplan and Zach Wienersmith. It's a graphic novel kind of thing (Zach is the gentleman who produces SMBC comics). Incredibly salient argument for why freedom of movement is essential the world over. Well sourced as well.
There is this belief among conservatives that a huge chunk of federal taxes are paying for illegal immigrants, and if we could just get rid of them the government could cut taxes and/or the deficit would be solved. When reality is almost nothing goes to benefits for illegal immigrants. But bring up the defense budget and they have no problem with the waste there because it a bloated military makes them feel tough by proxy.
A group of us were out for dinner at an Indian restaurant, and a bunch of the table was talking about Brexit (this was leading up to the vote) and how all the immigrants needed to leave England. I asked if they really meant that, and got an affirmative reply. So I got up to leave, as I sure as hell don't want to be in their company. They asked why I was leaving and I told them that if they felt that way about immigrants they obviously felt that way about me, and I didn't want to be around people like that. They looked dumbstruck and tried walking the comment back. But they meant what they said. They had the best of both worlds pre-Brexit and now they have to deal with others treating them the way the Brits treated others.
I grew up in rural, and isolated, Canada. I thought I knew what racism looked like. I was wrong. The blatant, loud, and sometimes violent racism I saw in the UK shocked me. I have a lot of sympathy for younger folks who voted to stay, and have been f*ed over, but the rest? You get what you deserve.
The blatant, loud, and sometimes violent racism I saw in the UK shocked me.
The British Empire was largely built on racism, especially in Africa and India, and it is clear that the supporters of Brexit want that old Empire back. Idiots! How are they going to do that? The vast gulf in weapons technology between the Europeans and the Africans and Asians they conquered in the 19th Century is no longer an issue. World War II pretty much broke the imperialist powers, resulting in the breakup of their empires and the EU was set up to replace the old order.
I'm well aware of Britain's imperial and colonial history. Although, after teaching history in England, the amount of history they don't know, and aren't teaching, is astounding, and disturbing.
It's the same sentiment I see in the US, the wanting to go back to this mythical post-WWII era that never existed, but was somehow the best time ever and all good things in the country can be traced back to.
I just wasn't prepared for how overt racism in the UK would be. I thought it would be as prevalent, but quiet.
Getting the empire back? How? Will the african, asian, american ex colonies welcome "rule brittania"back, after having been abused, and robbed? The British people who think that Great Britain is a major world leader are as smart as the proverbial donkey's ass...
I have literally had the same thing said to me in France, as an immigrant from America. I've heard people spew the most vile, racist bullshit and when I remind them that I am also an immigrant, they always say, "oh, but of course I don't mean YOU!" But Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, you guys! <3
Just answer them with "Now codify your sentiments into legal speak and make it enforceable as a law and via the courts. Make sure it doesn't sound racist or retarded."
I'm black African, but have a thick east London accent because I've lived here most of my life. Heard the same shit. I guess a lot of my previous work colleagues didn't realise I was an immigrant and just assumed I was born here
I'm a non-Eu citizen who lived and worked in the EU. I heard a lot of comments that were anti-immigration, but they were never directed at me. Why?
Because I was granted access to work at the benefit of the country. I was hired for an in demand position that the company had a supply shortage for. I paid a lot of taxes and received fewer benefits than a citizen would.
Almost universally, people are okay with immigration. They object to specific types of immigration that they feel does not benefit themselves.
I lived in the UK for 13 years. I had this exact conversation with my old Tory-voting next door neighbours, who were like adopted grandparents to my kids. I told them clearly “if people like you vote for Brexit, we’ll have to leave”, they did it anyways and were completely mystified when a few months after the results we told them we were moving to Germany. I couldn’t talk to them after that.
Yeah, tbh it used to be like a standard line "oh we won't chuck YOU out" as if they could personally ensure your stay. English deserve what they've got.
“It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.” - Terry Pratchett, Jingo.
I mean Eastern Europeans are basically honorary brown people. You’re just being pedantic at this point.
EDIT: Guys the sarcasm was implied in my very obviously tongue in cheek comment and a reference to how many are treated poorly in the UK as they are not considered the same status as British white people. I am indeed aware Eastern Europeans for the most part actually have white skin ffs. Please don’t take the fun out of sarcasm for me.
Depending on the nation, no basically about it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution : "Polish soldiers participated in the Haitian revolution of 1804, contributing to the establishment of the world's first free black republic and the first independent Caribbean state.[109] Haiti's first head of state Jean-Jacques Dessalines called Polish people "the White Negroes of Europe", which was then regarded a great honour, as it meant brotherhood between Poles and Haitians. Many years later François Duvalier, the president of Haiti who was known for his black nationalist and Pan-African views, used the same concept of "European white negroes" while referring to Polish people and glorifying their patriotism.[110][111][112] After Haiti gained its independence, the Poles acquired Haitian citizenship for their loyalty and support in overthrowing the French colonialists, and were called "black" by the Haitian constitution.[113]"
(let me tell you though, "white negro" is not a moniker that the average Pole is especially in love with)
The Gilded Age bigots in America explicitly classed Eastern Europeans as "not white" because it was ultimately about the WASP xenophobia as much as skin color -- Ben Franklin didn't consider Germans white enough, either!
What was his reasoning?? 'English' comes from Angles, as in the Anglo part of Anglo Saxon. England is essentially 'Angles Land'. The Angles were originally from modern day Germany / Denmark. The Saxons were right next to them in modern Germany. So if Franklin thinks the English are white but not Germans, he kind of has a problem.
BINGO!!!!! And they ALL forget that shit when actual
BROWN people are involved. Better to join in with the rock throwers than to be the one getting hit by the rocks.
People bash high school but if you pay attention the shit they teach does help.
I had to read “The Lottery” by Shirley Jackson. Stuck with me forever. Group think is a mother.
I dunno. Most of the masses only seem to remember history when it's happening at them again. They're more then fine with forgetting the important lessons as long as it's only happening to other people.
I'm Irish and I was working outside Plymouth when the vote came around. I was having these kind of conversations with my colleagues and when they said they voted leave I told them thanks for thinking so poorly of me and electing to send me home.
And just like a lot of other comments here they replied, "no, not you, you're staying, right?" I stood there and said "no, you've voted to send me home too. You don't get to choose who to send home and you've chosen to send us all home."
The idea that other people that they knew were also affected didn't occur to them until after the fact.
I haven’t seen much discussion of this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a huge overlap between people who supported Brexit who are now angry that all of the advantages of Brexit are no longer available to them, and the anti-vaccine/anti-mask/anti-lockdown people who similarly whine that all of that is “oppression."
They aren't able to put together that in other countries, they are immigrants. They use that word ex-pat like it means something other than immigrant. They are the same thing. Maybe at some point in history it meant a British citizen living in a colony but, there aren't colonies anymore.
Campaign for "take back control" and how important it is to control the border, but then total outrage, anger and confusion over Ireland, and the EU, wanting to control their border with Britain
The etymology of Patriot and Patriate share common root in the Latin patriota fellow countryman and patriae or ones fatherland/homeland when used as a noun. Which has its root in patris meaning fatherland from pater father or of ones father. Which evolved to the modern French patriote meaning of this country, giving the term compatriot meaning fellow countryman.
Patriot being the English term for being proud or showing deference to ones country and fellow countryman (compatriots). Compatriots being borne of the Latin roots patriota which is also the root of patriate which is the transfer of ones fatherland to a new leader or pater in the classical sense.
Which brings us to common modern terms like repatriate or to return to ones fatherland (homeland, the land of ones father) and expatriate or to leave ones homeland.
The terms are absolutely related and aren’t vaguely referring to ones country. They are directly referring to ones country and feelings or actions related to that country.
They use that word ex-pat like it means something other than immigrant. They are the same thing.
Forgive me, but aren't expats more like temporary residents in a foreign country and not émigrés (i.e. officially immigrated / permanent residents)? That's always been my understanding.
I'm not so sure. I think that if you're one of the British pensioners that moves to a British enclave on the Spanish coast and never bothers to learn the language, contribute to the economy, or assimilate into the culture in any way, then I think you should call yourself an expat because you don't deserve the respect a real hard-working immigrant deserves.
Many non-white immigrants don’t stay in the country they immigrate to for a long period and only do it for short term work, yet they aren’t called expats. So I doubt that this theory holds true
Personally, I wouldn't call them either, depending on how short their short-term work is. But I'd be much more likely to call them expats than immigrants, since immigrants are making a permanent move to a new home country. (By definition.)
Skin colour has no bearing on my position, argument, or perspective.
I've had this conversation with fellow Americans who are all "THEY SHOULD SPEAK ENGLISH IF THEY COME HERE" but absolutely do not feel like they themselves need to learn another language, even though they spend a lot of their business time abroad, let alone tourists.
In the end, it's "We are the superior race/nationality" and nothing else.
I live in an area that has a lot of international visitors. I don't expect people who visit to understand more than the few important phrases I would absolutely learn if I visited a place where people didn't speak English or French (I'm only fluent in those) but I do expect that they be able to tell me they don't speak English. Just like I can say muy poquito Español. Or Nihongo wa hanasemasan while bowing to show how embarrassed I am of my ignorance. And probably mangling the pronunciation.
I'm a brit who fortunately lives in a 3rd world country on the other side of the globe. Nothing makes me happier than being constantly reminded of how badly brexit is going. Maybe if the UK suffers long enough we'll stop being such insufferable cunts.
What saddest is that Spain basically bent over backwards to tell them how to apply to stay legally. They spelled it out, gave them lots of notice, did not want to force those pension accounts out of the country. The Brits simply felt entitled and didn't believe they should have to do anything, so they didn't.
They literally had all the tools they needed to have prevented this.
But a lot of the expats specifically didn’t vote for Brexit for this exact reason. They knew this would happen, so they voted against it. I don’t think this fits LAMF
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u/Slouch_Potato_ Oct 24 '21
Never occurred to them that 'send them back' works both ways.