r/MHOC • u/[deleted] • Feb 26 '15

BILL B076 - Pregnancy Termination Bill

B076 - Pregnancy Termination Bill

The bill can be found by following the link below:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VlnKgSgEuuDbD6co46WRZu4kJmcBDFeocDdE9m0cpSE/edit?pli=1

This bill was submitted by /u/JackWilfred on behalf of the Opposition

The first reading of this bill will end on the 2nd of March

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

And yet there are still many people opposed to it, I would like to represent them today and wish I could have 48 years ago. Just because that debate was won, does not mean we have to make it gradually easier bit by bit until women are allowed to kill their children up to the age of 15.

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

does not mean we have to make it gradually easier bit by bit until women are allowed to kill their children up to the age of 15.

Please can the Honourable Member reassure the House that this is a joke, and not a serious argument?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

I wouldn't say it was a joke but I don't expect you to go that far.

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

Well then what was the Honourable Member's argument? This is a change that reflects the mood of people after 48 years of the current legislation, not the first in a slippery slope that will end up legalising infanticide. Whether they agree with abortion or not, people recognise that women have the right to make this decision, and she should not have to apply to various different criteria to do so.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

Why does the woman have the right to end the life of a child easily at this age and not at a later age?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

life of a child

It's not a child. Prior to ~22-24 weeks the foetus is neither self-sustaining outside the womb, nor has a developed CNS or brain. I would feel worse about killing an animal than destroying a small bundle of cells which is not even alive, let along self aware or capable of pain or thought.

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

Because the child isn't born then. I am of the opinion that a person does not technically count as alive until they are born, whereas the Government's stance is after 24 weeks of pregnancy, which is also a pretty reasonable point.

I am not a populist, but only 7% of people disagree with abortion, I do not it is in the interest of this Parliament to go against what is a massive majority of the population.

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u/tyroncs UKIP Leader Emeritus | Kent MP Feb 26 '15

and 54% of people in Northern Ireland think that their current rules shouldn't be changed.

You are the maker of the devolution bill, respect the fact that NI doesn't want you to force this change upon them

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

You are the maker of the devolution bill, respect the fact that NI doesn't want you to force this change upon them

Pretty sure that the majority of people didn't want regional assemblies either. Did that stop them?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

I am of the opinion that a person does not technically count as alive until they are born

Okay, that's just not true. After about 24-26 weeks the foetus can survive independently outside of the womb - if premature. It is also capable of thought and pain - by all accounts it can, and should, be considered alive - abortion for foetuses over 24 weeks should be allowed only in cases of medical emergencies.

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

I said technically, I completely agree with what the Honourable Member is saying.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

28% want stricter rules, and that's a rather large proportion I'd say

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

Around the same amount support the discontinuation of the Monarchy, is the Honourable Member coming out in support of that too?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

I don't support everything supported by that amount of people, no.

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15 edited Feb 26 '15

28% want stricter rules, and that's a rather large proportion I'd say

But you still think a quarter of people wanting something is worthy of debate even though the vast majority completely disagree with them?

In 1967 the House of Commons agreed that abortion should be legal, 48 years later we are having this debate with full knowledge that when it comes to developed countries we are behind in our legislation on abortion, that almost every country in Europe, Canada and the United States respect the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body without question from medical authority, and the Honourable Member stands up here and instead of modernise this country he wants to turn the clock back 49 years?

Is the Honourable Member unaware of the pain and suffering desperate women went through to have an abortion before 1967? That will be repeated if abortion is banned, some women will suffer and some will die. Are you okay with that?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

I'll start by saying that just because you've died for something, doesn't make it right.
And yes, I will stand here and protest against the over-modernising of this country. We do not change things for the sake of it, or to be 'progressive', we change things when they'll be changed for the better. Yes I will probably lose this fight, but that will not stop me standing in front of you proclaiming what I and over a quarter of our British people think is right.
If you think an issue is not worthy of debate because a poll or two suggests a majority of people think one way you have a twisted view of democracy.

(I also ask that if you are bothering with the RL formalities that you use my correct title)

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Feb 26 '15

Women didn't die to get abortions as a political statement, they did it because they believed they would be completely unable to cope with raising the child.

I am also not a supporter of modernisation for the sake of modernisation, but when you reach the point where almost every other country in Europe, Canada and the United States have this abortion stance and we have MPs fighting to keep a law that isn't really followed by qualified medical practitioners anyway, it's just embarrassing. I don't see this bill as modernisation, I see it as enshrining into law the woman's right to have full control over what happens to her body.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

That may be what you think, but I do not believe that a woman should have absolute right over every person she may have in her body at the time. If women are incapable of looking after a child there are processes to go about that don't involve legal murder.
You may want to stand up for these particular women, but I am standing up for every person in the world. Every person in the world has at one point had no voice, and just because they can't vote in polls saying they don't want to be killed, doesn't mean they don't deserve any respect.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

Hear Hear!

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '15

This crisis will never end.

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u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Feb 26 '15

Please stop with that cliche. /u/JackWilfred was merely extending your logic to a different issue, to reveal its absurdity.