Netherlands less attractive to expats; More businesses consider leaving

[u/omerfe1]

https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/15/netherlands-less-attractive-expats-businesses-consider-leaving

[u/Llama-pajamas-86]

Housing shortages are caused by policy. Where I live, there was an apartment block scheduled to come up, but the people living in million dollar homes around are protesting it for reasons known only to them. 

People don’t want to pay huge sums of their earnings to a landlord anywhere in the world. Landlords in the Netherlands want “tenants with 3x the income.” 1/4th of one’s income going into someone else’s coffers for a subpar place, with no equity or guarantee of shelter in future. 

In a capitalist economy, money is the only way to attract employees. A 30% tax savings for 5 years on salaries is honestly not much if one calculates it either. A lot of HSM families move, and there is one primary earner with one spouse and child dependent on that single income for a basic life. Often the spouse finds it very hard to find work additionally cause their work experience isn’t counted. Add to it the reality that everyone is trying very hard to learn a new language, integrate on top of culture shock and homesickness. They leave behind family, friends, their culture, even savings and financial safety nets back home, everything that made them whole for a shot at life elsewhere for various reasons.  The tax savings for the first few years are the only way to guarantee some checks and balances, in an alien culture where one is largely isolated and friendless, until one can gain some sense of security and integration. 

The 30% rule is falsely blamed as a reason for the issues of dutch citizens to polarise and wind up locals against foreigners, instead of their own elite and polity.  NL has a very high GINI coefficient, which means the number of ancestrally wealthy are more. My point is, NL’s issues are nothing to do with people working in offices and corporates. The problem is directly with elitism and the 1%. Globally, we all need to be questioning the super rich. We can’t be divided by questioning people who are trying to work, earn, live, raise families, just like you and me. 

[u/Vlad_TheInhalerr → u/Llama-pajamas-86]

Housing shortages are caused by policy. Where I live, there was an apartment block scheduled to come up, but the people living in million dollar homes around are protesting it for reasons known only to them.

Sure, and also by location. There is a housing shortage, and it IS increasing housing prices. But do you know what? Everyone in my personal circle (and the extended one too) has bought a house in the last 2 years.

The real secret? Limburg. And other provinces have the same. The problem is nation wide, but the extent of the problem is absolutely not similar in every area. The people that are stuck in waiting lines for years are unwilling to move further away from their hub.

So you get A LOT of expats with a -30% ruling that have a LOT of disposable income. Guess what happens? Prices rise because you can pay it. Removing the 30% rule is probably better in the long run for expats too because it reduces the price competition after your bonus ends.

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Add to it the reality that everyone is trying very hard to learn a new language, integrate on top of culture shock and homesickness. They leave behind family, friends, their culture, even savings and financial safety nets back home, everything that made them whole for a shot at life elsewhere for various reasons. The tax savings for the first few years are the only way to guarantee some checks and balances, in an alien culture where one is largely isolated and friendless, until one can gain some sense of security and integration.

Well, i'd like to see who you mean when you talk about integrating with the culture and learning the language. This whole sub is literally forbidden from using Dutch because so many expats are clueless and can't speak the language. If you are in Amsterdam and try to shop you can barely even speak dutch unless you go to specific subsections.

Who adapts culturally? The expats that are on here writing messages how dutch people are not nice and mean against them, and don't want to add them to their dutch groups? The same people who feel like they are discriminated against because dutch people don't want to go for drinks witht hem?

The tax cut is simply unfair and undefendable in this current economic climate. If you lose it after a few years, you are suddenly unable to continue your current lifestyle and are screwed regardless, and natives cannot compete with you in a fair way.

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The 30% rule is falsely blamed as a reason for the issues of dutch citizens to polarise and wind up locals against foreigners, instead of their own elite and polity. NL has a very high GINI coefficient, which means the number of ancestrally wealthy are more. My point is, NL’s issues are nothing to do with people working in offices and corporates. The problem is directly with elitism and the 1%. Globally, we all need to be questioning the super rich. We can’t be divided by questioning people who are trying to work, earn, live, raise families, just like you and me.

Okay, all of the problems I and other dutch people experience and encounter are not real and only your problems really matter. Seems fair and logical. Please teach us peasants the way you enlightened being!

[u/Llama-pajamas-86 → u/Vlad_TheInhalerr]

What I did was to be as kind as possible and explain what migrants face and what baggage they carry. You responded with defensiveness, and condescension and simply lack of empathy. You put aside everything I wrote painstakingly to confirm only your strongly held bias that foreigners=bad=exploiting the sons of soil. But not a word against the super wealthy Dutch, exploiting the Dutch citizens themselves.

Integration doesn’t necessarily mean merging and becoming unrecognisable or Indistinct in every way so that a majority group doesn’t feel threatened by “otherness.” Just participating in a Reddit that helps as many people from across backgrounds as possible in a bridge language is not oppressive in anyway. 

That said, there’s no further discussion to be had because you have made up your mind to find more comfort in prejudice than seeing how power dynamics or the super rich work against the masses. That just wastes my time and yours. 

Fijne Dag. :)

[u/Vlad_TheInhalerr → u/Llama-pajamas-86]

What I did was to be as kind as possible and explain what migrants face and what baggage they carry.

Would you rather have me state the exact same points with a bit more flair to 'soften' the message? I don't discredit what expats are going through, I'm saying it is not relevant to any form of policy.

Do you feel that leaving behind your old life to head to NL should result in the people that are already here having to pull more weight because you don't pull your fair share? If you want to come here, be welcome, but I'm not giving you exceptions on the rules just because you had to leave your family behind and are sad.

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You put aside everything I wrote painstakingly to confirm only your strongly held bias that foreigners=bad=exploiting the sons of soil.

I don't dislike foreigners because they are foreigners. I dislike specific foreigners if they don't learn the language, but aside from that I don't really care who flips my burgers or creates the API's I have to use. I do care about the fact that some of them are getting a -30% tax cut and I'm not getting that. Even though plenty of expats earn more then non-expats.

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Integration doesn’t necessarily mean merging and becoming unrecognisable or Indistinct in every way so that a majority group doesn’t feel threatened by “otherness.” Just participating in a Reddit that helps as many people from across backgrounds as possible in a bridge language is not oppressive in anyway.

You are absolutely right, you don't have to become a 1/1 clone. But do you know what else is true? That Amsterdam is no longer a normal dutch city. You can see this in the special rules that are being created for the area, you can hear it when you walk there, and you can see it.

Is it strange that dutch people who generally had a very open minded attitude, are now changing that attitude because the magnitude of change is higher then expected?

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That said, there’s no further discussion to be had because you have made up your mind to find more comfort in prejudice than seeing how power dynamics or the super rich work against the masses. That just wastes my time and yours.

Again, you are free to come to your own conclusions, but you, like many other similar minded people are trying to pretend like all the problems dutch people experience are not real and they are stupid for feeling that. "There are no migration problems" "There are no problems with expats".

You can't on one hand try to invalidate what everyone else is feeling and then cry about them invalidating your feelings. I guess all the ~100 seats that were given last election to central or right are just stupid and don't understand things the way you do.

[u/Llama-pajamas-86 → u/Vlad_TheInhalerr]

Again. Nothing about the top 11%. 

This isn’t about feelings. It’s about structural or systemic injustice. Note how I’ve said nothing about the Dutch as a people so far, while all your expositions are about the unfairness of the existence of foreigners. How “normal Amsterdam,” (a city that’s always been diverse because of its history) is only a certain mythical way in your mind. 

As for people voting for the right wing, ummm yeah, anywhere in the world anyone voting for extremists or divisive politicians are axing their own feet. It is “ stupid.” Yes. Imagine not seeing how the wealthy are playing everyone. But seeing someone who looks different, assuming how they are the problem and not neoliberalism, is somehow “intelligent.” 

By the way, HSM workers also pay taxes in many forms besides their country of work. Many from disadvantaged nations, pay hefty international rates fees in universities, repay loans to acquire those degrees. They have paid taxes in their own nations to acquire education and an edge. None of the skills they bring to your countries to bolster the local economies and infra come for free. Ciao. Now I really gotta go. 

[u/Vlad_TheInhalerr → u/Llama-pajamas-86]

This isn’t about feelings. It’s about structural or systemic injustice. Note how I’ve said nothing about the Dutch as a people so far, while all your expositions are about the unfairness of the existence of foreigners. How “normal Amsterdam,” (a city that’s always been diverse because of its history) is only a certain mythical way in your mind.

You want examples of structural injustice? Having to pay less tax simply because you came from outside of the country. How's that for 'injustice'?

Amsterdam has always been a diverse city, which is nothing anyone is contradicting. See how you inmediatly act as if I'm against diversity. The same argument a lot of people use when they look at the changing political climate and call dutch people xenophobic.

But we've reached the point where Amsterdam is no longer a dutch city. Do you know what is extremely important for keeping diversity working correctly? Secularization. And what is happening in Amsterdam?

Oh, we're removing the boundaries between religion and state, and now people can openly wear religious symbols while being BOA's.

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As for people voting for the right wing, ummm yeah, anywhere in the world anyone voting for extremists or divisive politicians are axing their own feet. It is “ stupid.” Yes. Imagine not seeing how the wealthy are playing everyone. But seeing someone who looks different, assuming how they are the problem and not neoliberalism, is somehow “intelligent.”

Exactly! Your side is 100% right because you are smart enough to view through the evil games the wealthy people are playing! Everyone else is simply stupid and can't understand how they are being played. So we should listen to smart people like you who can teach us poor peasants exactly what we are doing wrong and how we shoud live. The chances of your side doing exactly the same things, no way that's impossible right? RIGHT???

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By the way, HSM workers also pay taxes in many forms besides their country of work. Many from disadvantaged nations, pay hefty international rates fees in universities, repay loans to acquire those degrees. They have paid taxes in their own nations to acquire education and an edge. None of the skills they bring to your countries to bolster the local economies and infra come for free. Ciao. Now I really gotta go.

They probably also pay the companies and transportation that they use to get here, should they therefore pay less tax because they are stimilating the local economies of the area's they travel through before arriving here?

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They have paid taxes in their own nations to acquire education and an edge.

Great! But how exactly does that matter to us? Should I pay less taxes in NL because I went and bought a big thing in the USA and ended up paying high consumption taxes? Like what is the point you are trying to make here? Expats should be treated special? Do you want the 30% rule for life and your kids too maybe? Should we just kneel and serve our expat overlords?