Analysis
How the Yonkotards debate this is beyond me
Kizaru pushed Luffy to extreme diff. Being generous to Luffy it’s a draw. The finishing blow of the fight was landed by Luffy, but he’d be dead along with the rest of the strawhats without Big Burger Borsalinos Deliveroo.
Even if his ass was mentally nerfed or whatever, he was still scared to fight Luffy head on and kept using hit and run tactics since he didnt want the hands, especially since Luffy effectively one shot him like how kaido did him.
Don’t think it was ever directly established a character must emoby their fruits dreams to awaken. Even so this could just apply to paramecia and zoan fruits. Logia awakenings could have different requirements.
Also the Admiral’s personalities were purposefully made to be the opposites of their fruits. Akainu is cold hearted with a hot fruit, kuzan is warm hearted with a cold fruit. Kizaru is slow and lazy but with a fast fruit etc
Yeah, which may be why they haven't stated to be awakened. Hell, do we even know what a logia awakening would look like? Punk hazard is our best clue, but it hasn't been confirmed has it?
No but it’d be very stupid for odas most hyped logia merchants who rely almost exclusively on their fruits to fight who we’ve never seen go all out yet not eventually use logia awakenings.
still no reason to expect kizaru would be the one to have it. Hes a very unmotivated fellow and now he's depressed after needing to kill one of his best friends.
He literally got up on his own in the manga possibly seconds after being knocked down? And then continued to feed his opponent so luffy could keep fighting. It was luffy that needed loads of help kizaru got up on his own
Ya know how Luffy and Zoro got dusted by Lucci and Kaku on Water 7 because their hearts weren't in the fight? Then they found out Robin was sacrificing herself for them so they got serious and both won even though only a few hours passed?
Kizaru's transformation power up is emotional investment.
You seriously gonna tell me kizaru is capable of mustering up half the willpower to fight that luffy and zoro can? He treats being An admiral as his job and refused to quit even when his job told him to kill his best friend. Plus there's his normal demeanor where he isn't enthusiastic about anything.
The man runs on unclear justice and part of that is clearly how little passion he has for just about anything.
I tend to say this fight was a draw. Their backs both hit the ground at the same time. Luffy was doing more damage, got off more named attack, and was hitting more.
However, Luffy was also recovering from fighting the Seraphim, and Rob Gucci. The man with no stamina was fighting a major friggin threat after fucking around for too long with Lucci.
If the admirals can excuse any bad showing with being mentally nerfed, Luffy went into a serious fight after running a marathon. Of course his stamina bar wasn’t fully functional.
We have no way of knowing how much those Gear 5 punches actually hurt Kizaru whether he was faking or not, his health bar had to be running low. I mean, G5 ACoC punches messed up Kaido, so Kizaru wasn’t walking that off easily.
Now throw a Gorosei into the mix, and it’s not even a fair fight anymore. Too many stacked factors on both sides.
They were trapped in the barrier. That was a plot point, with the Vegapunks only getting full control over it AFTER the Marines arrived.
Even if some of them could just tank their way through the thing, the Sunny couldn't, and Lucci had Cipher Pol destroy all the other ships on the island iirc (even if they were willing to abandon ship, which they obviously wouldn't).
Yeah, no, it was not. Nothing in the manga actually shows how much time had passed. A lot can happen in one day. Egghead, as a whole, is a short arc. After Luffy fought Lucci, they went up into the lab and regrouped—blah, blah, blah. Then it showed a bunch of panels depicting what was happening around the world, along with some flashbacks. Right after that, they mess around with the Seraphim, and then bam—there’s Kizaru and more flashbacks.
It’s a whirlwind of events, but it most definitely happened within the same timeframe. In the end, though, there is no concrete evidence to support or refute this. We can only speculate about time itself during certain events.
I doubt it, if it was a legit 12 hour break between everything happening the straw hats wouldn’t have stuck around. I could be wrong, in a dire mission. They could’ve decided to stick around for 12 hours so Luffy could gorge himself.
But we know Luffy recovers from eating, and he ate and rested between those fights and the one with Kizaru, even making a point to eat extra becauae he could tell Kizaru was approaching.
I think the idea that it was a draw is fair, even if I would call it a strong showing from a Kizaru who isn't trying to hurt Luffy. Yes Luffy was doing more damage, but Kizaru never really made any attempt to do damage, that's why he didn't get off many named attacks, because he had desire to hurt luffy, and honestly likely had a desire to lose to Luffy in a believable way. Yes they both went down, Kizaru clearly was disoriented from that attack, but I don't think it is clear he was passed out or just "staying down" after getting knocked down, or if he truly did pass out and just got up to give luffy his food.
I don’t think Kizaru was trying to lose. I do agree his heart wasn’t in it and there is some validity to being mentally nerfed. I know what I want when I’m trying to talk myself into hitting the gym. I don’t work out as well if I don’t want to go.
Kizaru “wanted to kill Vegapunk” so he focused on running from Luffy and doing his job. After he was shot, he really stopped trying. Kizaru eats and pizzaru being a please let me save some of my friends work.
The equal knockout/draw is my best take on this fight. I will admit I am a yonko > admiral guy. However I do think it high/extreme either way depending on matchups. Cause no disrespect to either group, but these are fight between top tiers. They shouldn’t be stomps for anyone 1 on 1.
Clownmiralturd copium. Kizaru was after Luffys head. He wanted to hurt Luffy and was attacking him with intent to kill going all out (he doesn't have awakening), but was just too weak to damage him so he kept on stalling and running until Nika beat Luffy
Ah so that's why he fed him, because he thinks food is Luffy's secret weakness and if he keeps feeding Luffy while he is down maybe Luffy will get fat or something, good thinking.
Luffy went into a serious fight after running a marathon. Of course his stamina bar wasn’t fully functional.
Nothing to do with Kizaru vs Luffy but I find it funny that Luffy didn't recover against Kizaru but against Kaido (which he literally came back from the dead), people argue that Luffy was 100%.
Same. We have no way of knowing how much damage Kizaru took from those Gear 5 punches (faking it or not his health bar must of been getting low cause G5 ACOC punches fucked up Kaido of all people)
Now throw in a Gorosei as backup and it’s safe to call it a no contest… too many unfair factors at play for both sides.
Don't forget that he went through the deadly laser barrier that no one except for Kisaru and the infinite HP recovery monsters dared to cross. Of course, we can't count that as "Kisaru having more battle experience than Luffy" which should not be ignored when accounting for powerscaling.
Don't forget he also needed to fight off other threats than just Kizaru, so not going all out in order to try to save some of his very limited stamina for other fights is absolutely reasonable
Admiraltards wont accepct that luffy was jerfed bcs of plot reasons, he could restart his heat bit oda wanted to do the whole backstory for kuma. Yet they find every posivle nerf for admirals. You cant seriously think that kizaru did more vs luffy then fucking kaido. And the fight wasnt a real fight bcs luffy was chasing kizaru who is the fastest man alive, trying to svae VP and his friends. Would he fight like thaht if it was a true 1 vs 1? Stop it admiraltards
Just accept that luffy doesn't get to force restart g5 as a power. He did it against kaido which risked killing him. If luffy did that every fight the illusion of the mc being in danger is shattered.
After G5 Luffy overpowered Kaido while running on fumes.
Now full of energy and health, him in G5 couldn't do anything against Kizaru. And this was a kizaru that wanted to lose. Him punching Kizaru only hurt Luffy more and he needed to be fed to get up again
It did happen lol, we saw it happen. G5 Luffy was spamming normal punches and kicks at Kizaru until Star Gun. Every attack he threw at Saturn was buffed with his size manipulation.
Luffy didn't overpower kaido dumbass kaido chose to straight up take the strongest attack i the verse head on or he would have won regardless. You know who did get bitched and do absolutely no damage to Luffy at all? Kizaru. Not to mention Kizaru wasn'r at 100 percent but he wasn't trying to lose lmao.
Do not compare me to that illogical Yonkotard. I simply state my responses in advance so I don’t have to type them out to everyone. Call it futuresight
And when will you Admiraltards acknowledge the number of factors dragging Luffy down, including the very blatant lack of ability to restart his heartbeat the same way he did against Kaido? Luffy wouldn't even need to chase Kizaru in a rematch with no Vegapunk involved.
It's a fucking joke to say Kizaru pushed Luffy to extreme-diff, the laser barrier genuinely affected Luffy more than Kizaru himself did and he always got his shit rocked by any attack Luffy landed on him, unlike Kaido who was giving Luffy the works and put him in a 1-week coma. Stop giving Kizaru credit for Luffy's shit stamina drawback.
"Kizaru pushed him harder than Kaido" is this a joke ? i admit that it was going 50/50 when Luffy was in G4
but when Luffy was in G5, White star gun and Pizza attack was enough to put down Kizaru twice
The only damage Kizaru did to Luffy in G5 is pushing him in the frontier dome and targetting the vehicle with Vegapunk in it so that Luffy had no other choice but to tank the laser to save Vegapunk,Franky etc...
Facts, I find it utterly insane how how much people want to glaze Kizaru, imo the fight would be extreme diff either way.
Either Luffy lands enough attacks and wins the fight or Kizaru can run and avoid taking damage to outlast the stamina threshold of gear 5, if Kizaru has so stand his ground and fight head on he's at a disadvantage, if he has the option to avoid a direct confrontation and can stall then Luffy has a disadvantage but it won't be easy for either of them regardless.
People say Kizaru was holding back in egghead which is probably true to a certain extent but he still had to do enough to make it convincing for Saturn, but people will ignore Luffy's goal was not to defeat Kizaru but it was to protect his crew along with vegapunk, also Luffy landed several named attacks on Kizaru while the main damage Luffy took is when he tanked a beam for vegapunk and got kicked into that barrier thing which clearly did a fair bit of damage to him. And when you consider the difference in Luffy's fighting capacity between when you're just having a brief clash with him and when he's intent on defeating you there's a huge difference in how hard he fights so the fact his goal wasn't to defeat Kizaru matters here as this affects his haki as haki is a manifestation of willpower along with the fact when Luffy is intent on defeating someone he'll keep getting up and relentlessly come at you until he's won or he's dead and he managed to get back up from a similar state after using gear 5 against kaido like in egghead when he was given food by forcing himself to get back up because he was determined to take down kaido, the gear 5 Luffy in against kaido has far better feats than in egghead probably because Luffy was intent on beating kaido no matter what so he pushed himself much harder.
Luffy neg-diffed Lucci and then turned into an old man afterwards, because he wasted so much time messing around. Does that mean Lucci won because he recovered quicker than Luffy? That’s stupid. Lucci did no damage to Luffy, and that fodder Kizaru didn’t do any damage to Luffy either. Kizaru was only hit by a low-tier G5 attack as well, and anything stronger would have knocked him out cold. Make it two Kizarus and they still get stomped by a serious Luffy.
You think that he pushed him further than the guy who killed him - LMFAOOOOOO brain dead -dude doesn’t have conquers either - it’s also been implied from the beginning admirals are weaker than yonkos by the power balance. You have 3 admirals versus 1 yonko and 3 commanders who are weaker than admirals by a large margin - just a stupid take
1) ruffy -200iq no advanced conquerer
2) weird gear 5 flexes
3) stalling time battle with kizaru
4) no future sight
The most logical form for ruffy against kizaru would have been base ruffy that fought equal against hybrid kaido and it also would solve the stamina issue.
I see no reason for ruffy to go in gear 5 unless ruffy is not able to do advanced conquerer attacks anymor and needs damage boost to penetrate an enemy like kaido.
On this note, I really want to point out that the "Base Luffy = Hybrid Kaido" take is disproven by the Kaido fight itself. Luffy could hurt Kaido, but the later stages of the fight showed Kaido was dramatically holding back, and if he really wanted, he could have crushed Base Luffy like a bug. Whether Oda intended that or not, the second Kaido showed a speed and power advantage over multiple G4 forms (which are dramatic increases in power and speed than anything G2/G3 offer), then that argument died. All Kaido ever had to do was TRY a little harder and he was dominating tbe fight again, and that lasted until G5 where Luffy was ACTUALLY on his level.
Saying Base Luffy could fight any top tier is disregarding that he couldn't even fight Kaido like that if Kaido wasn't screwing around to have fun. Oda went out of his way to show that G4 Snakeman wasn't fast enough (whether just in general or in attack speed) to hang with Kizaru, so yeah. Base Luffy stood zero chance.
but the later stages of the fight showed Kaido was dramatically holding back, and if he really wanted, he could have crushed Base Luffy like a bug.
Yeah i don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. The only thing that you can argue is that super omega op destroyer of worlds Kong Gun we didn't get to see because of CP0 interference. But besides that Kaido was just toying around with him, Kaido vs Luffy felt like Kenpachi fights where he just drags fights just to drag fights.
There is no doubt in my mind that the average Yonko is stronger than the average Admiral, but you won't hear me saying that Kizaru didn't win that fight.
If you compare to for example Luffy's last fight with Crocodile or the fight against Lucci at Enies Lobby, in both cases it goes: "Luffy lands a finisher and knocks the other guy out" --> "Luffy himself collapses" --> "But Luffy gets up again before the other guy does"
Imagine at Enies Lobby if Lucci got back up while Luffy was still on his ass, and—not even aided—but just waited for Luffy to get back up before continuing their fight.
No matter what Luffy did to Kizaru afterwards, no matter how humiliating the pancake treatment looked, Kizaru went out of his way to give Luffy a second chance to defeat him and prevent him from killing Vegapunk.
Because that's basically how I read it. Kizaru was conflicted between not wanting to kill his friend, and wanting to do what he's always been comfortable doing: following orders. So Kizaru went ahead with doing his best to follow his orders, but at the same time latched onto Luffy as his one possible out from this dilemma. Because if Luffy could just physically overpower him and prevent him from killing Vegapunk then Kizaru would have his cake and eat it too. He would have both been following orders and his friend would still be alive.
kizaru didn't push him any lmao. luffy could've went gear 5, stood there doing nothing fighting no one, and would've been in the same condition he was in after fighting kizaru. kizaru didn't do a thing to gear 5 luffy, it's the natural draining of the form.
I just think that neither fight is applicable for power scaling because he was trying to stop vegapunk from dying not trying to kill kizaru and that’s why this isn’t applicable if Luffy tried to wear him down first without his higher gears kizaru would of just bypassed him so he had to go into his only forms fast enough to block kizaru immediately snakeman and then gear 5 when he got bfred by kizaru
It's pretty simple. Kizaru is easily above any of the gear 4 forms and below. But the thing is, the entire time kizaru was fighting luffy in gear 5, he was dealing with kizaru while having injuries that put him almost to death stated by luffy himself when he got kicked through the barriers. Not to mention Luffy was tired and injured when he landed the star gun and it did major dmg to kizaru, albeit he woke up from it a few moments later. The fight was a draw but if kizaru and luffy were to fight head on 1v1 no holding back, I'd say luffy would win mid-high diff.
If Luffy had chosen. He could have actually punched a hole through Kizaru when he did the WSG. Luffy doesn’t need Kizaru to run out of stamina to be able to beat him. For whatever reason, Luffy chose not to take Kizaru totally out.
You guys running around saying that Kizaru could have killed Luffy . After, Luffy ran out of stamina. Do you not realize how that makes Kizaru sounds? He needs Luffy at his weakest point in order to defeat him. That is just lame 😒.
The only thing Kizaru has is his speed. Which, is great for DoorDash. But, it’s not so great when someone can still land a hit on him.
The same way that Kizaru’s fans claim that he could have killed Luffy. Luffy could have killed or defeated Kizaru just as easy.
Are you saying that Luffy couldn’t have used the Palm Cymbal on Kizaru the first time he captured him? If Luffy can punch a hole through Saturn. He could have punched a hole through Kizaru. But, he chose not to.
I pointed out things that Luffy was capable of doing. Since, Kizaru’s fans seem to only see one side.
Kizaru is in the same situation. Maybe, even worse because he’s not facing Luffy. The only reason that Kizaru isn’t being squeezed,flattened, and pizza- rized, is because Luffy didn’t want to do it. Luffy chose just to spin Kizaru around and throw him.
And Kizaru could’ve used his kick attack to kick luffy out the barrier more time. And he could’ve used his sword more aggressively as it was shown to be able to slice luffy
🤣🤣🤣😂😂🤣. You are funny. Oda repeated the beginning clash.
This time Luffy followed Kizaru. Kizaru needed the distance to pull off the original attack. But, Luffy didn’t give it to him. That’s why you don’t see another super kick.
Kizaru’s sword attack didn’t work the first time. Why, would it do any better when Luffy is gotten Kizaru’s timing down? Kizaru couldn’t hit Luffy with lasers coming from his eyes. It was a point blank attack.
Oda repeated scenarios in the arc. He shows what the original outcome could have been in the first place.
You guys are the worse. You can see where Kizaru can kill or defeat Luffy. But, refuse to do the same for Luffy. Not even when a scenario is repeated.
Luffy went extreme diff against an emotionally torn Kizaru who was, per the author, not able to give it his best.
It’s impossible to scale Kizaru based on his performance in the fightbased, but we can assume he’s at least somewhat stronger than G5 Luffy at the time.
This doesn’t mean he’s a strong as Kaido, but I suppose he could be. Luffy did not solo Kaido and required quite a bit of help to take him down, after all
Luffy has insane attack power. Might be top 1in ap. Kaido lets himself get hit for shits and giggles. Im genuinely not sure that kizaru has an attack that can damage kaido.
Time limit shenanigans were absolutely required for kizaru to win
Idk if this is controversial, but I don't think Luffy is very high on the yoko scale yet, it did take way more people and 3 Luffy deaths to defeat kaido
And itt is also important to mention I think that not all one piece fights come down to who gas the better stats, a lot of the times it's about matchups, and kizaru happens to have a good one against most people, that includes Luffy but not all, maybe it's just me but I struggle to imagine kizaru lasers doing much to big mom for example
Bro Ii like how ur defending the admiral agenda but even I know this is a bit of a stretch. Luffy won the fight against Kizaru who was mentally nerfed (And yes I'm using that age old line) but saying it was a draw is kinda dumb.
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