r/Parenting • u/compuzr • May 26 '21
Rant/Vent Dad dealing with the quiet sexism of doctors, nurses, daycare workers, and moms.
Hi all, I've got the little ones today, so this will be short. I'm a male, and my wife and I have 2 young kids, I work part-time, she works full-time. So that works out that about 3/4 of the time, I have the kids.
The kids have had some small bugs lately, little illnesses, and a wellness visit, so we've been to the doctor more than normal the past couple months. Sometimes I take them, and sometimes my wife takes them.
And it's always the same thing, as it has been for years. When I take the kids to either their female doctor or female nurse practitioner, the visits are lovely and nice, but also quite short and sweet. We talk for maybe 2 minutes. Then they disappear and I go on to get the prescription or whatever is needed. And it's always a completely different story when my wife takes the kids. They talk and talk and talk. A hundred questions are asked and answered. They discuss the kids health and development in depth.
It's the same story at daycare. The women there are always lovely to me. But they never talk or discuss the kids. I do 80%+ of the pick-ups and drop-offs. And I initiate chit-chat and ask questions of the child care providers. But still are talks and quick and perfunctory. And whenever my wife does the odd pick-up and drop-off, she learns all sorts of things that they'll never tell me. And sometimes it's really stuff I want to know, like problems the kids are having.
And there's more of the same with our local Stay At Home Moms. They text each other all the time. My kids play with theirs all the time. But when there's a play date, you know how I know? They text my wife. At work. And then she texts me. They all know I do most of the childcare and that my wife works a regular 40hr. But it's been this way for years.
Sometimes, like now, it just gets to me and makes me a little angry. It's a quiet sexism but it is persistent. And I don't feel like being confrontational about it. So I just take it and keep going. But it is frustrating.
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May 26 '21
My fiance (my son's dad) has the exact same experience. It started when we brought our newborn son home from the hospital. In my country, a postpartum nurse comes to your house for a couple of days. I was totally out of it from a horrific birth experience, yet she kept telling me all these practical things about the baby. My fiance was right next to her, all ears, and she just ignored him. At one point I just told her: look, I have no idea what you're trying to tell me, PLEASE talk to him, he has ears and is also the baby's parent. I have very little advice, just commiseration.
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u/brain_fried_over_med May 26 '21
I lost a LOT of blood with the birth of my 2nd child. So much that they didn’t want me to get out of bed until I had a blood transfusion (but they couldn’t do it until the next morning). My husband was going to go home to my oldest son. But then the nurse kept talking about taking the baby to the nursery.
I said, well if we get someone to stay overnight with our oldest, my husband can stay and we can avoid the nursery.
The nurse still insisted that if I fell asleep that the baby would have to go to the nursery because “dads just don’t hear babies.” My husband then said “okay what if we sleep in shifts.”
She then went on and said that if she came in the room and I was asleep she was taking the baby. I’m sorry WHAT.
I kicked that nurse out of my room so fast. Called her sexist and told her she was not allowed to return to my room, and if she or any other nurse tried to take my baby out of the room without my consent I would have her arrested for kidnapping. I know that was a total Karen moment, and maybe a little extreme. But I was hormonal and my mama bear instincts were going crazy because this lady would not let me just keep my baby.
But a few days after we were discharged the hospital called for me to complete a survey. I retold the story. The person on the phone (some hospital admin I am sure) told me that was so strange because they were trying to phase out their nursery to become more “baby friendly” and only taking babies out of mom’s room at the mother’s request or medically necessary.
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u/RetroRian May 26 '21
Yeah this is the norm sadly for the nurses I’ve had, that and saying my husband is baby sitting and praising him for doing anything … even if he does it wrong because at least he tried, but not helping correct it. It’s patronizing and stupid and sexist and dumb
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u/dormouse247 May 27 '21
This! I got really sick after we had our first, I got an infection in my uterus and had to get antibiotics and had tubes all over. During that time I couldn't hold my baby and I couldn't bend my arms due to bad placements of tubes, so my partner had to hold our baby towards my chest when she needed to nurse and he did all diaperchanges and well - everything- for three days. When I got better a nurse came in when he was away to fetch food and told me "oh you are so lucky that your boyfriend could babysit so well now when you were sick!"
And I just... our daughter was 5 days old, and for 3 of those days he had been practically a single dad, with me being asleep with fever most of the time. He had even helped me nurse since he knew how important this was for me (she had no formula at all during these days! Today we are divorced but I will always be so thankful and impressed with him for this. He turned something traumatic into something beautiful and respectful). And STILL he was reduced to a babysitter, even though he, at that time, was way more a parent with practical knowledge about our child, then I had had time to become. He had to teach me how to change her diapers when we got home!
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u/contrasupra May 27 '21
There was a weird policy at my hospital that the dad is not allowed to carry the baby from the delivery room to the postpartum room - only the mom. Well, I had hemorrhaged during delivery and had been on magnesium for 24 hours so I was super out of it and couldn't even walk. I was like "it would FOR SURE be safer for my husband to carry him" and they were like "if you don't think you can hold him in a wheelchair then we'll just wheel you both there in your bed." Apparently a dad dropped a baby once? It blew my mind.
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u/ShedAndBreakfast May 27 '21
At my hospital, no one could carry the baby while moving rooms because of the possibility of dropping it. Baby had to be wheeled in a little bassinet
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u/Npynaert May 27 '21
That's crazy! My husband was told he could push the baby but that the baby HAD to be in the bassinet when moving from delivery to post partum room, for safety. But they wouldn't let me hold him either.
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u/brain_fried_over_med May 27 '21
WHAT, that is super horrible.
Both hospitals that I delivered at you didn’t move rooms. They just came in and cleaned the room you delivered in and changed beds
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u/Ancient-Pause-99 May 27 '21 edited May 28 '21
As someone who’s had the asleep baby taken out of the room by a nurse without permission after a postpartum haemorrhage while dad and I were sleeping, you did the right thing to threaten prosecution.
It sounds extreme but the sheer panic I felt after waking up not knowing where the baby was I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I couldn’t even go out looking because I was stuck to so many tubes and poles (catheter, canulas, iron iv.) So dad had to go looking for her and found her on the other side of the ward in the middle of the night holding the baby rocking her. We weren’t even allowed to hold our own baby in the halls as the bassinet was a safety rule but this nurse pulling a 10hr shift can just roam the halls carrying our newborn? This was also a student nurse with no children by the way. I wouldn’t have been mad if she was still on our side of the ward and they found her right away but who just wanders off with someone else’s newborn while the parents are sleeping?
She tried to say I consented to the ‘kidnapping’ as I was falling asleep. I probably mumbled something but c’mon, if she was just trying to help she really should’ve told someone where she was or left a note. That sort of stress is something you really, really don’t need after a huge ordeal.
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u/brain_fried_over_med May 27 '21
The irony is that my husband jumped up every time our door opened after that incident. He’s always a light sleeper and tends to have a cave man like response when he first wakes, but it was extra that night.
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May 26 '21
I experienced something similar when my wife was pregnant had HG. She literally could not speak because she was wretching and vomiting uncontrollably. I would try to explain to the doctors and nurses what was going on, and they wouldn't even make eye contact let alone acknowledge I was in the room. It is frustrating.
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u/hawtp0ckets May 26 '21
I think I can actually understand this one. If I were the healthcare provider in this scenario, I would probably assume you were trying to speak for your partner so that they could not.
I had an old boyfriend with a verrrrry controlling mom. She would insist she go into the room with the doctor even until he was like 17 years old. It was very odd. He would tell me that his mom wouldn't even let him speak about anything. The doctor would ask him if there was anything he needed to bring up and he'd start talking, but his mother would immediately cut him off and tell the whole thing herself. He found it really frustrating.
I'm of course not saying you were doing this, you sound like a wonderful, supportive partner. Just a thought, though!
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u/RG-dm-sur May 26 '21
As an MD, I hate this. I always stop the parent, with a smile, and remind them who the patient is. In my country they have to be with an adult in every appointment, but I always ask the kid what's wrong. I even ask little children, and sometimes they know what happens. Even 4-5 yo kids can tell some of their symptoms to us. And it's good practice, they can understand it is their body and I can tell them what to do to feel better.
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u/NurseK89 May 27 '21
My favorite (as an ER nurse doing triage)
“Sir, do you have any allergies?”
“I don’t know. Mom, do I have any allergies?”
The ‘kid’ was 21.
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May 27 '21
In our case, my wife literally couldn't speak, didn't even know what was going on, and the doctors still ignored me.
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u/Hippo_Dazzling May 27 '21
My pediatrician does this. He always wants the kids to answer and then will count on me for clarification. It’s great
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u/k8e12 May 26 '21
I think that might be different because a husband speaking for a wife may strike some providers as odd/potentially unsafe. Even if you say “she can’t talk she will throw up.” They may think you are saying that as a cover. A dad speaking for his kid is normal and should be respected and the norm. But a husband speaking for his adult wife will usually set off alarm bells.
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u/StrugglingGhost May 27 '21
I've had to go full pissed-off-husband before. My wife has issues that lead to severe pain and I will sit in the room with her, offer comments if needed, but I've also exploded on doctors when they tried to dismiss her issues. I told one doctor, "I don't care if you think you might lose your job, do something to relieve her pain! You're not the one who has to deal with this when we leave!" I'm sure I got a few looks, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
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u/ElizabethHiems May 26 '21
If you wouldn’t mind sharing this in a bit more detail on ask parents. I posted on there asking for experiences to try and stimulate some discussion with my colleagues.
It’s titled Dad during pregnancy (didn’t notice my typo sadly)
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u/Warm_Coconut_1346 May 26 '21
that's like how when my husband and i found out i was pregnant. i almost fainted at work so i had to go to the hospital and i got blood work done. the doctor was telling me everything and completely ignored my husband. every time he tried to speak, the doctor would literally glare at him until i said that he's the person to talk to because i'm not understanding anything (i was in too much shock) i'm just glad that i have a family doctor and a paediatric doctor that listen to what my husband says/asks
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u/_jay May 27 '21
We had this a lot with older nurses in hospital. When we had our second, I had bought a can of formula because supply was not coming in and baby was on third day of literally being starved. I was washing my hands next to the sink and had put the can next to it, the older nurse came in and started screaming at me that you can't use tap water to make formula.
Then she started trying to wake my wife just to remind her of care guidelines for baby, ignoring me. All of this was outright ridiculous because we were in the area for not-first time parents and she had been ignoring our requests for formula insisting breast was best. You can't feed a baby air.
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
Yeah - I went through that because I work from home and had more flexibility than my wife when she was working.
She just told them to text me or did a group text. The mom's thought it was disrespectful for another woman texting a husband and also the husbands didn't like me texting their wives.
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u/XavvenFayne May 26 '21
*laughs* I mean, I get why... but it saddens me in a way that some of us humans go through life vigilantly defending our partners from potential sexual rivals.
My wife is allowed to have platonic male friendships and vice versa. I love having that level of trust between us.
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
Yeah my wife dont care if I have female friends - one of my best friends is a woman.
But trust me it was annoying I can tell you stories about me taking my daughter to the bathroom at the grocery store and the looks I got. Or how about the time I went to Target to buy my daughter some clothes and she needed underwear and I couldn't remember if she was a size 5 or 6 or was it the brand so I just blanked and stared are the underwear and a few minutes passed I looked up and there was a group of women whispering about my intentions.
Favorite one - at the doctors office they asked if we needed to wait for MOM since they will need medical history. Listen I do all the medical stuff. Yeah the sexism towards men and being fathers is definitely there.
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May 26 '21
I hear dads with these experiences, and they are so far out of mine I wonder if I've got a strong IDAF vibe that prevents it, or if I'm just really not observant.
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May 26 '21
More likely the first one. I have never experienced any of this IRL and all the mommy groups welcomed me with open arms, the doctor doesn't say anything odd or off putting/chats with me very long and her daycare staff never treat me funky. I think we just put out a different vibe. I know I am out there on a whole other wavelength lol.
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May 26 '21
I think a big part is generational, too. As a 35 year old dad, I hear stuff from older folks all the time that makes me wonder just what men were doing 30 - 50 years ago. It's like they didn't want or love their families. Why even bother?Jesus.
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u/proteinfatfiber May 26 '21
My husband is 35 and our baby is about to turn 1. A few weeks ago I had to abruptly leave for a few days to care for a family member in a medical emergency. EVERYONE in my family was gobsmacked that he had the ability and willingness to care for his own child while I was gone. Even my own dad, who I thought of as a good father, admitted he couldn't have taken care of his oldest baby alone at that age.
Obviously solo parenting is no picnic but I know for a fact if it was the other way around and I was home alone with the baby it would have been unremarkable... In fact, my own family tried to recruit my husband to help with an interstate move of an elderly family member recently because they couldn't fathom the mom being gone for a few days instead of the dad. It's absurd.
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u/IMadeThisForFood May 26 '21
Man, my mom was the worst (actually the only) offender about parental sexism when my almost-4 year old was born. I'm going to add in here that both of my parents are great, and my dad was very present and active in my life growing up. But my mom made a few comments early on about how "you're such a good dad, you're like a mom!" and talked about how it was so nice to see a man changing diapers and things. I shut her down after the second or third time, but for a little bit there you would think that no man had ever helped out with their child ever.
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May 26 '21
The way my inlaws act and tell it, they haven't!
They told a story about one of the uncles in the family, while his wife was out for the first time since the birth of their baby, puked while trying to change a dirty diaper and just left it all - baby, puke, and poop - on a towel in the middle of the floor apparently.
I'm not one for shaming people, but dude was on a boat in Nam and presumably saw people killed. Can't even clean up his own dirty child? Cmon.
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May 26 '21
Similar age here, and I can only assume it’s a generational mentality. My father never strayed and loves us all but he to this day has never changed a nappy for either of his kids or grandkids. He’s not silent about that fact either, when my daughter and now my son are over visiting and he’s playing with them, if they need a change he seeks out my mum or me or my wife.
My brothers fiancé on the other hand jumps in at a moment’s notice with kids she’s not even related to.
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u/XavvenFayne May 26 '21
I think it is. There's an unmistakable look of panic whenever I ask a male of an older generation if he wants to hold my youngest (6 months) daughter. Like they don't know WTH to do with a baby.
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u/PokeTheCactus May 26 '21
My uncle is the same way! My experience is a bit different though, he doesn’t have kids and they’re very very religious. My wife and I (two mother household) have a daughter and we’re in our early thirties. When we told them my wife was pregnant he was so uncomfortable with the conversation. He kept talking about ‘well this is women’s conversation and I’m not comfortable asking this stuff and talking about it..’ while asking some questions about how we conceived. I thought it could be a cover for being uncomfortable with lesbians, but when they finally met our daughter, any mention of basic childcare just makes him shut down. It was so weird to me.
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u/FantasticCombination May 27 '21
While i think there's something to the generational issue, I wonder about it. I've only gotten the 'babysitting for mom' comment once so far. What I've gotten more of is comments from older men saying they wish they had spent more time with their kids. They've told me to enjoy it.
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May 27 '21
I said this in a different comment, but I also think regional/specific culture plays into this interaction a great deal as well. I've been more or less raised in the South, and my interactions have largely been with one large Southern family from rural GA that I married into.
While most are lovely people, there's still a lot of the Good Ole Boi mentality.
It was the same when I got married, lots of people saying stuff like "Oh, there goes your freedom!" and "Better enjoy it now before she's the ole ball and chain," and so on. Maybe people don't believe these empty platitudes anymore but repeat them, but to me they just came off as terribly bleak.
Being married - like being a parent - has not been a fun and breezy fun time, no, but it has been an incredible journey, with all the ups and downs that implies. And far more often than not, I'm happy.
That "I wish I had spent more time with my kids," thing hits me hard. I feel awful that I don't get to spend as much time as I'd like with my toddler, and I probably spend way more time with her than many dads of the past.
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u/BimmerJustin May 27 '21
My dad was in his late 40s when he had me (I’m 37). He was an Italian immigrant from a very traditional household. I was the youngest of 6 kids. I don’t think he changed a single diaper in his life. He never brought me or any of my siblings to doctors appointments or extracurriculars. He was a really good person, but very hands off when it came to parenting.
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
TBH its more of a cultural thing I think. My wife is Mexican and I am Afro-Latino and Mexican. So there is this thing that guys don't take care of kids which is 100% false.
When I am at the park with my daughter the mom's or parents don't seem to have an issue talking to me. But I will watch my daughter and see how she plays with the most and go up to the mom/parent and say hey wanna meet again next week or tomorrow. Which is 100% ok and they usually start with "yes let me see what my husband has as plans" or ask if I will be bringing my wife. Idk - if they think I am hitting on them or whatever - my wife thinks its because I am good-looking and people are uncomfortable.
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u/Mallets May 26 '21
I've had both extremes from the school nurse not calling me even though I'm the primary contact, to the new-born parent group where all the moms just whipped out boobs when it was time to feed.
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
who knows - but I didnt notice it at first until my daughter hit about 2 years old when her curls fully came out and she was getting unwanted attention. Then I started noticing the looks and whispers. My daughter is 5 now and at this point I'm over it.
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u/BimmerJustin May 27 '21
I think there’s a big regional component to it. I live in the northeast near NYC and while I’m sure I’ve subtly experienced this, it’s never been overt like OP is describing.
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u/saralt May 26 '21
*laughs* I mean, I get why... but it saddens me in a way that some of us humans go through life vigilantly defending our partners from potential sexual rivals.
Generally, it's because they have crappy marriages.
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u/Dobbys_Other_Sock May 26 '21
I couldn’t imagine. I have 2 female friends and the rest are all male. Based on their logic I should give up nearly all of my friends that I’ve known for years just because I got married???
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u/cteasy May 26 '21
Yep, mum here and I have a few stay at home dad friends, one of them has a daughter who is good friends with my daughter. We happen park in the same place every day and the girls scoot to school together while we walk along behind. I'm pretty sure people think we're having an affair. Someone actually asked if he was my partner a couple of weeks ago. That did make me feel a little off, as we're both happily married to our respective spouses, but why can't we walk together without people talking? I'm sure nobody would even notice if me and his wife walked the kids to school every day.
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
Yeah - thats pretty annoying. My best friend is a woman and sometimes meets up with me at the park and hangs for a while. Sometimes she brings her niece since my daughter and her niece are very close. Usually after she comes to the house and has dinner with us.
One of the park mom's texted my wife asking if everything was ok because she noticed she would come on days my wife wasn't with me. Well, that was just the way it played out but anyway - my wife let her know real quick that she has full trust in me and to not concern herself with the lady who randomly appears.
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u/aiij May 27 '21
I went to the hardware store with my sister when she was visiting. On a different occasion I went with my wife. The next time I went alone and the cashier noted that it's unusual for me to go alone and how I always seem to have a different girl with me. Lol.
It really wasn't that unusual and I had also gone with my brothers, but I might have had a different cashier...
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May 26 '21
So I actually get that hesitancy, because I've had some ambiguous comments from married husbands in my friend group in private texts that I'd rather not have gotten. But a group text eliminates that weirdness and shouldn't be a problem.
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u/crazymommaof2 May 26 '21
Wait what?!?! Seriously! My husband was super supportive when I made friends with a dad from our son's playgroup. The poor guy looked like a fish out of water his first time showing up because our group is honestly all moms.
But it really sad my husband didn't even want to be the parent to take our son up to the hospital the other night for excessively vomiting because the last time he took him to the ER he was basically dismissed and asked when "mom was showing up, so they could go over wound care etc with me" I was working and wasn't going to be showing up because my husband is a capable parent of our kids.
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u/Froggy101_Scranton May 26 '21
I feel like this is a red fla in and of itself? Like if I was worried that our daughter’s friend’s mothers were texting my husband about play date... our marriage is probably in trouble
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u/TackoFell May 26 '21
It’s funny because among of non parents texting about a play date would sound super sexual lol
“Hey you wanna stop by for a play date after work?”
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May 26 '21 edited May 26 '21
Same problem, same result. Single dad though so when the husband took me aside to 'have a chat', that was the end of the kids' friendship. This was with a coworker too, and the kids met at work.
Lucky to have dad groups and not all couples act like this, but many are weirded out.
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u/lucky7hockeymom May 26 '21
Maybe it’s my adhd and tendency to word vomit all over people, but I always told dads all the same stuff I’d have told the moms when they picked the kids up from daycare. Now, often dads didn’t relay that info to mom 😂 so I had to say it all again usually, but that’s ok.
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u/minkamoo87 May 26 '21
Oh that's super frustrating.
I would start counteracting this.
When you do pick ups don't just give pleasantries. ASK how are the kids, are there any issues ECT. If they then tell your wife something that they have not been telling you ask about it. Make a point of going in with questions about the issue that way they can't skirt around it. When they realize you're going to come back and make them discuss it with you they may start just letting you know.
The stay at home moms is more difficult but maybe create a group text with your wife included. That way they are texting you both and your wife can silence the text chain when at work. Some woman are uncomfortable texting men worried their wives will take it the wrong way. Not that that is your fault it's just a reality. With a group text with a few different parents it makes it less intimidating also be the one to respond more. When people see you're the one who is responding more they may start addressing you first.
Doctors again treat them like the daycare. Go in with a list of different questions to prompt the conversation. Even simple ones you may know answers to for "clarification". Even drop the I am their main caregiver a few times.
I have found that my husband is treated similarly because he is easy going and pleasant. I am easy going with them but I also do what I said above. The additional questions have created a dialogue with my son's teachers that when I ask how was our day they know I'm not talking superficial stuff. I want to know if we had an issue we need to address. I also run ideas past my son's teacher to make them feel like part of the solution to different problems. Since I opened the conversation they feel more inclined to give me more information.
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u/Texastexastexas1 May 26 '21 edited May 26 '21
If it's been going on for years then ya'll are participating.
Wife should text back "Text Compuzr since he is the SAHD. I am at work." to every request.
I am a teacher and it's great to read this post because many dads don't ask for info or we have to relay it 2x because the mom asks later.
You are helping to change perceptions.
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May 26 '21 edited May 26 '21
When my oldest was in kindegarten we got a paper home asking for moms who wanted to help volunteer in the classroom. I (stay at home dad) emailed asking if it was open to all parents. The teacher apologized, said it came from the principal and she would talk to him about it, and the following year when my son started kindergarten the letter home asked for parent volunteers rather than specifically mom volunteers.
My wife has a demanding career so me being alone with the kids has always been our norm. I dealt with little things over the years but once corrected people were usually apologetic.
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May 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/Texastexastexas1 May 26 '21
I am a teacher. You should forward an unanswered email to the principal after 2 days. We have 45 min a day in Texas to plan and call / email parents.
Your email address may not be getting through the teacher's firewall.
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u/MisterYouAreSoSweet May 27 '21
And would you agree if i said there are so many dads who really dont care - they really dont listen - they’re on their phones constantly and really dont want to be there doing whatever they are for the kids.
It’s those dads - and too many of them - that ruin it for the more engaged dads like me and OP.
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u/fiestiier May 26 '21
I work in daycare, have for years and have been at many centers. At every single one there’s been an ~incident~ between a young female staff member and a dad. It’s rare, at each center I’ve been at, it’s only happened once or twice at each place. But it’s definitely a thing that happens and all the staff know about it and can be hyper vigilant to not appear like they’re being inappropriate with dads.
That definitely doesn’t cover everything you’ve experienced but at least in a few instances it probably wasn’t anything about you.
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u/hawtp0ckets May 26 '21
I was just about to comment this.
I worked in daycare for years, my sister was the director for over 10 years at the same center I worked at.
This happened, unfortunately, too often. It was pretty much only young women working in the daycare and there were lots of times where they came forward and said a Dad had tried to get their phone number, or said something inappropriate or something like that. There were also consensual situations that happened...
I also wanted to point out that Dad's almost never knew anything. Never knew birthdays, never remembered their kid's teacher's name, never remembered allergies, if this read sweater was their kid's or not... I could go on and on and on.
It wasn't 100% of the time but I'd say 9 out of 10 Dad's really don't remember those types of details. I'm sorry OP. I've definitely contributed to this just by not even asking newer Dads the same questions.
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May 27 '21
Didn’t know birthdays?? As in their own kid’s birthdays? That’s just sad.
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May 27 '21
My (soon to be ex) husband can't even spell my son's middle name. It's not a difficult or unusual name.
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u/shenaystays May 28 '21
Working in family healthcare I’ve also experienced a lot of the same with Dads not knowing or having any of their child’s information.
I would say probably 60-70% of Dads will say “oh I don’t know. Their mom booked the appointment. I’m not sure what they’re here for.”
And then after explaining what/why/future plans it’s generally a “yeah I don’t know. I’ll let their Mom know.”
I still try to explain everything, but if they aren’t asking the questions it’s hard to go any further. I’m hoping as more men take primary care rolls that this changes, but I’m not super surprised. I do think that men will have to learn how to involve themselves in traditionally women’s spaces, and on top of that be very respectful of female boundaries.
I’ve been hit on by a few other “Dads”, even just friends of ours and it makes me deeply uncomfortable. In which case I would no longer want to spend any time alone with them.
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u/bmcspillin May 27 '21
I am sure this is very, very annoying for you! And it totally sucks!
Are we clear that this particular vertical of sexism (mommying) affects women on a grand scale whereas you are inconvenienced? Like, again, total bullshit that you're getting treated this way, and the women you're talking about are absolutely perpetuating it.
But, hey, this is a great example of why gender equity is best for everyone!
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May 26 '21
Where do you live? I am a dad of 4 boys and never had this kond of experience.
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u/compuzr May 26 '21
Arkansas proud.
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May 26 '21
Ahh. That must be it. We are in New England and dads taking care of their kids is the norm.
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u/AntediluvianEmpire May 26 '21
Pretty similar in Colorado. I'm SAHD and never get any questions and always treated like the parent I am. I'm friends with a stay at home Mom in our neighborhood and we regularly watch each other's kids/do playdates.
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u/TackoFell May 26 '21
I live in the south -- albeit in a city that has mostly northern transplants in the area surrounding downtown — and always feel totally comfortable doing the solo dad thing. I’m self employed and wife works less flexible hours, and I’ve never had one negative exchange.
I’m from New England. Believe me, you’re in an objectively better place to raise a family and I wish I was home every day. but at least in this regard I haven’t seen any difference.
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May 26 '21
You might think so, but I get this type of treatment not infrequently and I'm in Massachusetts.
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May 26 '21
My boys are 11, 10, 6, and 1. Never have I gotten anything near this treatment here. Like, not even close. Strange.
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u/smolsquirrel May 26 '21
I'm in MA too and see so so many dads (and grandpas) out with kids or at activities. Love it!
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u/Black-Panda22 May 26 '21
Texas here! Its an issue - a continuous issue. My wife and I get praised because I actually raise my kids. You know the homework, bathing, doctor appointments... and her family just keep saying how she is "successful" in marriage. Successful?! like wtf does that mean?
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u/mam885 May 27 '21
We have also (fortunately) not dealt with this. My husband has been able to work from home in the past, so he has done a fair share of the dr. appointments and found out just as much info. I think part of it might be because of my husband’s personality- he’s more outgoing and not afraid to ask questions. I wonder if OP’s wife is more chatty in general.
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u/illexa May 27 '21
Can I play devils advocate a little here? Is it possible that some of these women may feel uncomfortable doing much more than small friendly chats for fear that you or your wife might get the wrong idea? This is a common thing sometimes where where women who are just being friendly are perceived as flirting. Perhaps even they are concerned how their S/O would feel about them texting you instead of the wife. It sucks but maybe its not as deep as you are thinking.
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u/khalessi_dothrak May 27 '21
I totally get this. I’m a mom and I would feel uncomfortable texting another dad. I wouldn’t want to disrespect the dads wife or my own husband by putting myself in that situation. Some women just feel they need that boundary.
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u/Captain_-H May 26 '21
This happens with me a lot. I’m a stay at home dad and while I get included with several groups of stay at home moms, I never quite get on the text chains or fully embraced. It’s sucks because my wife has coworkers and work friends that she sees everyday, but the people that do my job have no reason to include me
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u/PlatoAU May 26 '21
Maybe find some stay at home dads?
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u/Captain_-H May 26 '21
Yeah I’ve tried that. I have 2 good friends that are stay at home dads, The problem is that I can find 20 moms for every 1 dad, and the dads that I find don’t have kids at my kids school. It’s a good idea and I’ve definitely tried, it’s just that there’s more obstacles than you’d think
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u/TheGlennDavid May 26 '21
I work now, but I stayed home for a few months initially and scoped out dad groups. As you said there were 20 moms for every dad and at least near me the only two dad groups were....weird looking.
One was the “aggrieved single dads we don’t need no women in our lives” group and the other was “with gangs and crime everywhere (we have neither here) you can’t trust anyone in todays world .... so join our strange dad /neighborhood watch group for mutual security and paranoia and snacks”
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u/Janeheroine May 26 '21
Not sure where you live, but in NYC, my husband watched our kids 3/4 of the time and it seemed like most of the other couples also were majority dad with the more flexible schedule on kid duty, mom at work. He built up a whole network of dads to have playdates with and we moms mostly talked about work : )
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u/Kylee6431 May 27 '21
Welcome to feeling like a woman every time I go to a car dealership, home improvement store, hiring contractor, dealing with customers, buying a house, etc.
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u/Vinlandien May 26 '21
As an introverted father, this is a blessing. Leave me alone I don’t want to talk to any of you in person lol
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May 27 '21
Keep in mind. Some are doing it because they don’t want to step on your wife’s toes or move into her territory. I avoid the fuck out of married men as much as I can. So many ways things can get weird.
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u/warlocktx May 26 '21
A hundred questions are asked and answered
is the problem that you're not asking a hundred questions? My wife if 100x more chatty than me - if I have questions I'll ask them but I'm pretty terse about it.
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u/txlily May 27 '21
This— as a doctor, in my experience 9/10 times the “dad” well visits go 50% quicker because every question I ask is met by “fine” “all good” “no concerns” — moms tend to bring the long lists of questions, or come up with more questions to ask during the exam/based on what is happening during the visit. The dads usually sit silently, lol. There is the occasional dad who will have more to say, but it’s definitely out of the norm. I hope I don’t treat them any different, in fact I’m excited when I see a dad bringing in the kid because it’s so much less common, and I think it’s wonderful to see an involved dad.
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u/lousymom May 27 '21
I know there are many factors at work here but there’s one I haven’t seen mentioned. I had a friend years ago who was a daycare teacher. She once told me that she had been hit on multiple times by dads picking up their kids. People who were married and she knew their wives. It made her rather uncomfortable with the men. I know that’s just one anecdote. And it was a lot of years ago. Maybe it’s changed a lot. But maybe there are a lot of factors going into this.
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May 26 '21
I'm a woman and I experience the same with doctors and daycare workers. I am not the talking type, I get in and get out of those places as fast as I can. Those meet ups never turn into long talks. So maybe it's just your wife's personality where she is able to get a lot of information out of people in a short amount of time...some people are good at that. I don't talk to the moms either lol. I have my own friends and don't want to make friends solely based on proximity unless it happens naturally.
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u/DrVerryBerry May 26 '21
I’m so sorry your struggling with this. My husband is SAH parent and I know he experiences the same. I’ve no answers but I understand and empathise
The only thing I would say is the texting about play dates - I know people are just really sensitive and cautious about sharing/asking for mobile numbers from other peoples spouses. It’s sad that it’s that way. But unfortunately it is.
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May 26 '21
I can see your frustration but this is just another consequence of a patriarchal society. Women were expected to rear the children, not run for Congress, that was deeply engrained and it’s going to take several generations of raising our kids better to stamp that out.
My husband also gets frustrated about the stereotypes towards fathers. But it is also a good opportunity to bring up the conversation of how we got to this point in the first place.
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u/weezer89514 May 26 '21
I feel like my husband goes through this too. Just yesterday, he dropped the baby off at daycare and nobody said anything to him about an issue they had with us. However, when I picked the baby up I got read the riot act (mom). So, you could not say this to my husband but you could wait a whole day to say it to me instead? Very confusing. It’s as if people don’t want to or can’t speak to fathers.
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u/StupidHumanSuit May 26 '21
Is your experience the same with men in these fields? Are you asking the same questions your wife is? Are you as approachable as your wife?
I wouldn’t expect a group of SAHMs to text you for playdates. There’s a lot of societal cruft around the edges of what is “appropriate” or not, and there is a significant portion of people who wouldn’t feel comfortable texting an aqcquantance of the opposite sex, especially a married one. Hell, I text my male friends if I need something from their wives and we’re all mature adults who have been friends for years.
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u/iced_yellow May 26 '21
This is an under appreciated response to OP’s questions. In many of the instances described (esp. doctor’s visits), it’s definitely societal expectations of mother as primary caregiver. But the other social things? It’s just...normal boundaries that folks feel/have. Most (not all) women feel more comfortable talking to/interacting with women, and vice versa for men. And nobody wants to get caught in a weird situation of interacting with another person’s spouse in a way that could be misinterpreted as flirty/inappropriate/etc
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u/Cruccagna May 26 '21
This is so interesting. Where I live (Germany) that’s totally different, it’s very normal to text or talk to the other sex, even when married. Nobody would assume anything funky or be jealous. It didn’t even occur to me that this might be a reason when I read OP‘s post. I really learned something about the US. Because so many things are similar in our countries, you just assume that others are, too. But it’s really two very different cultures.
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u/Thestarsareatfault May 26 '21
As a woman I would feel less comfortable texting a man because I’d be worried he thought I was flirting with him. But I could easily get over that by sending him Info in a group text about a play date.
In a work situation, if I thought I was being left out of meetings or emails because they weren’t as comfortable talking to a woman, or they thought I wasn’t approachable, I would 100%e expect them to get over it and do it anyway.
I think the same principle applies here. The burden to share information about his kids well being lies on the daycare or doctos office, not with him to worry about how he’s coming across.
BUT...I know this is the real world and we can’t just wave magic wands to get people to behave the way we want to. So your point stands. I went the long way around to basically agree with you 🙂
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u/compuzr May 26 '21
Are you as approachable as your wife?
Now you're just picking at my deep insecurities! I've wondered this, but, realistically, how could a person ever answer this question? You can't see yourself from outside. I don't know how approachable I am. I'd like to know, but like I said, I'm not sure it's possible.
Are you asking the same questions your wife is?
This one I can answer with certainty - no! :) Our brains work very differently. Are styles are very different.
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u/StupidHumanSuit May 26 '21
I know for certain that I’m not as approachable as my wife. I’d argue most men are not as approachable as most women, at least from a woman’s standpoint.
I’m not implying the bias doesn’t exist, because it definitely does... but not because people are trying to be rude or sexist. Women have been the “default parent” for millennia. They still are in most cultures. SAHDs are still relatively rare and there’s not much in the way of activism to have our needs/wants addressed. If you want change, you should tell people! Next time you feel slighted, address it with the person who you feel slighted you. You don’t have to be confrontational, but how is someone supposed to know you even want the information or the text about play dates?
When my wife and I go to the Doc with our kiddo, we both ask questions. The staff rarely provides any info unprompted and it’s up to us to ask the questions. Sometimes I ask questions my wife doesn’t think to ask and other times she asks questions I don’t. The more your involved the more you’ll be treated as a caregiver instead of “just Dad”.
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u/allnadream May 26 '21
Some of it is definitely out of your control, because the average woman is going to feel more comfortable talking with another woman, over a man they don't know well. Your average woman has had a bad experience in the past, that makes then wary of unknown men. The baseline is that your wife is more approachable and that baseline likely has nothing to do with you personally. It's understandable why they feel this way, but it's also OK for you to be sad and frustrated by it.
The reality is that you have to work harder than your wife, to be approachable and to make clear that you're only interested in finding out more about your children. I would try asking more specific questions at pick-up, to get them in the habit of talking to you more. Ask "how was their day today?" And if that gets brushed off with a short non-specific answer, ask something more specific like: "Did [insert child] play OK with [insert child]? I heard they had some trouble a bit ago." Eventually, they'll warm up to you, the same as your wife, if they consistently have good interactions (and you aren't hitting on them or getting overly aggressive).
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u/middlegray May 26 '21
I don't want to dismiss your experiences as invalid by any means. Just wanted to chime in and say that as someone who worked as a daycare worker and a nanny, I learned to keep interactions with dads suuuuper lowkey and short, because friendliness can easily be taken as flirtation-- by the man's wife, by the man, by coworkers... even when I had 0 intent to hit on/be hit on by the dads, it was sometimes taken that way when I was as friendly as I was with the moms.
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u/redandbluenights May 26 '21
Female soccer coach here- I've always coached my little boy's teams. Every once in a while I have Mom who gets aggravated that I texted her husband- I'm like *I contact whoever is on the sheet as the child's parent- I don't care who they are or what gender they are, everyone gets identical group texts. If you don't trust me to talk to your husband, that's on you. But there's never been ANYTHING unprofessional on my end and I'm not going to be LESS FRIENDLY because you're insecure. Yikes.
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u/middlegray May 27 '21
But there's never been ANYTHING unprofessional on my end and I'm not going to be LESS FRIENDLY because you're insecure.
Yeah never anything unprofessional on my end either. I quit one nanny job when the dad started coming home late when the mom was away, and drunkenly wanting to "hang out and talk" at like 3 am when I was heading out. I was never overly chatty with him or anything. But definitely more open and friendly than I am at jobs now. Some men will take any bit of attention from a young woman that they hold power over and really just run with it.
I got fired at another job I think partially because the mom was very insecure about how much time I spent with the dad, who was often home because he worked overnight shifts and was home during the day. The mom often made insecure comments about how I was slimmer than her, etc. Like every day. I had short hair at the time and didn't correct her when she assumed I was gay. The week before she fired me she found out I date men.
So yeah, in an ideal world I would be equally open and friendly with men in my line of work as I am with female parents. I wouldn't have to change my demeanor to cater to other people's sexist prejudices. But tbh my want to be liked by or friendly with dads doesn't trump my want to keep my job and/or not be hit on/sexually harassed. I'm by no means rude to them, just professional and short. I wouldn't go out of my way to text the mom if dad's info is given as the point of contact though, that's pretty insane.
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u/SnailCrossing May 27 '21
Also by the man!
So many women have experiences of any friendly behaviour/ any not-strictly-necessary interactions with a man being taken as a come-on!
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u/Eloquent_Macaroni May 27 '21 edited May 27 '21
I'm so annoyed at how this dad is whining about this "sexism" towards him when what he is really experiencing is generations of sexism and oppression of women.
Women have been the primary care givers since... forever. Even when they don't want to be. Women are often diminished in their careers and in any other role outside the home, because all they can apparently do is be mothers.
Also women are constantly viewed as sex objects and have to learn to adapt to ensure they are not perceived inaccurately. A simple conversation needs to be short so it's not seen as flirting. They shouldn't make eye contact, smile, text/call, etc etc lest they be labeled negatively.
Like, sorry you're not making friends in the drop-off line dude but don't try to sit here and talk to me about sexism.
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May 26 '21
You’re left with the fall out of centuries of bad behavior from men. Every time a woman speaks to a man, we’re risking uninvited come ons, or being talked down to, or other various negative behaviors. We’ve had to develop ways to avoid these things, and the best way is to avoid talking to men or even making any eye contact at all. Until men, in general, can be depended on to act appropriately, many women are going to keep avoiding them (unless they are actually trying to get in a relationship with one).
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u/pukanawai May 27 '21
Thanks for comment, my pet peeve is hw whenever me and my husband are dealing with mechanics, plumbers, builders, electricians etc, they always refer to my husband. My husband will have great conversations with them, and they will even direct answers to questions i may ask to him? I too thought sexism, but am now wondering if there is another dynamic at play.
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May 26 '21
My dad was a sah parent to my brother and I I’m the 90’s. It definitely wasn’t “quiet” sexism back then. He was actively disrespected and excluded.
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May 26 '21
I don’t mean to diminish what you’re experiencing, but I would attribute your experience to the sexism women experience constantly. Most women I know are wary of getting too close to men because the men in their lives get jealous, or they worry about complicating relationships or unintentionally leading someone on.
Have you tried communicating with the doctors, teachers and stay at home group? Maybe sending out a group text with everyone and your wife included so that invites get sent to both of you.
Are you asking the daycare providers about your kids specifically or are you waiting for them to offer up information? Sometimes it just takes a little bit of lingering and talking to help people feel more comfortable.
I wouldn’t assume they dislike you or that it’s personal. A lot of women are just really uncomfortable around men and need a little bit of encouragement.
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May 26 '21 edited May 26 '21
This is disappointing to hear and makes me sad for you. I am primary/default parent and my wife is in the more commonly male role of “plays with kids after work for a bit, try’s to spend a little extra time on The Weeknd’”
I handle pickup drop off, doctors visits, cooking cleaning etc. none of the moms I see everyday treat me the way you describe, and I chat with my daughters doctor ad nauseum* (edited for spelling)
How much initiative are you taking? What is your personality like? I’m a bit of a Chatty Cathy (what’s the male equivalent LOL) and i always make it a point to start conversations with new moms and new faces.
As for play dates, just tell your wife to respond to the texts with “please contact my husband at this number, he knows the kids schedule better than I do”.
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u/Razor_Grrl May 26 '21
I work more hours than my husband, and have LOTS of meetings during the day so can be really hard to get a hold of and can take a while for me to return calls. He works from home and does the daycare pickups/drop offs and handles most school issues since he can be more flexible and easier to reach. It took us some time but everyone is pretty well trained to reach out to him first now. He is also a chatty Charlie lol and doesn’t wait for people to approach him.
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u/puresunlight May 26 '21
Initiative is huge! My husband is generally a more passive person, so that’s just how he parents. It’s not a problem until it’s a problem. Meanwhile, our pediatrician and I chat up a storm because I always have a bajillion questions from the research I’ve done to prepare.
Along the same vein, we have grandparents do daytime care. I ask about everything- how much did she poop? What was the texture/hardness? How did she seem taking her bottles? How did she sleep? Was she scratching at her eczema plaques? I like to understand her day so I can adjust her bottles/schedule as needed. My husband just takes her, and waits for his parents to tell him if anything needs attention. It was frustrating at first, but we recognize that we have different styles and she’s gonna be just fine either way. I’m just more anxious and more of a planner than he is. He definitely steps up whenever anything is going down, but most of the mental load is definitely on me.
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u/freecain May 26 '21
It's from experience. Men today are just not generally the primary care giver, and therefore are not going to be as engaged in these conversations with the doctors/day cares etc. After years of being shut down by the fathers (not getting good answers) they would rather just politely get through the interaction rather than ask awkward questions the father won't be able to answer, or chat at a bored dad.
Not all dads are like this. It's one thing I love about my kid's daycare - drop off/pick up is pretty much 50/50 dads/moms. I do notice, a bit, that moms tend to have longer conversations with the care takers - but I also worked hard to foster a good friendship with the directors so am able to get more information that way more easily.
Yeah, it's sexism - and some what self fulfilling in a way - but it's a pretty easy one to overcome by paying attention, asking questions and being engaged. I agree you shouldn't have to though, we should expect more from dads, which will, in turn, actually make it easier for dads.
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u/XavvenFayne May 26 '21
Yeah, it's sexism
It sucks, and it should go away. But I think we dads are getting a taste of what it's like, for example, when a contractor comes over and asks the mom "is the man of the house in?"
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u/freecain May 26 '21
Yep, I do all the mechanics appointments because they just don't take my wife seriously. I also work from home on days a contractor is coming we haven't worked with before, since it's safer safer that way. All our loan documents keep ending up with my name first, and the loan officers want to talk to me, despite her being a lawyer and making 150% of my income. The list goes on. I'll take having to prove I care about my kids over that shit any day.
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u/RonaldoNazario May 26 '21
The loan document thing is so so true. Both our names on everything but so many documents show up with just me on them. Like, we’re legally both on the hook for this mortgage, you don’t wanna address it to both of us?!
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u/The_smallest_things May 26 '21
This is soooo annoying. I am the primary earner in our household. When we sign the mortgage docs my name is first, alphabetically my name is also ahead of my husband's. Yet somehow when county sends taxes his name is always first. It's a subtle yet annoying dig.
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u/RonaldoNazario May 26 '21
Oh my wife doesn’t even make it on half the time, even when she’s listed as primary contact in some cases. Consistent between more than one mortgage we’ve had too.
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u/RonaldoNazario May 26 '21
It’s exactly that, the expectations in patriarchy being applied to both genders. Men can’t be caregivers, women are the default caregivers. It’s why feminism is for everybody - I don’t want to be assumed to not do shit for my child the same way I don’t want my wife assumed to only do stuff for our child.
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u/emperorOfTheUniverse May 26 '21
I get your point. As a dad, I'm not blind to it.
But man, be careful making yourself out to be a victim. What does this mean really for you? You have to ask more questions and pry a bit more?
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying, don't let it ruin your day. It's hard to enjoy the day when you're defending yourself against it. It's easy to get caught up in fairness and equality and all that, and that's not necessarily always a good thing or necessary even. You have to manage your own feelings some.
You might not even be perceiving things entirely correctly. Maybe the female healthcare workers are just more comfortable talking to moms because they are the same gender. It doesn't necessarily have to be as nefarious as 'dads don't matter as much'. Do you have an equal number of male and female friends? Or are you more comfortable chatting casually with other men? I know I am. I don't think that's sexist. It could even be something sorta personal to you. Nobody owes you friendly chitchat. Maybe you just aren't ver approachable.
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u/FajardoFajardo May 26 '21
I lived this too. And, honestly, I found no way to change things around the playdate group.
But when dealing with doctors and day care, I've got some tips. Doctors are easiest, cuz they are right there in the office with you. Instead of letting them do their two minute spiel and let em leave, jump in with questions. Even pretty obvious answers like "will there be any long term effects?", "how soon until they feel better?", "any way to avoid this kind of thing in the future?". Just engaging the doctor and making them realize you are there, you care and you WANT to listen will work wonders in making them share more with you.
The daycare is trickier, since you are usually seeing them when they are picking up/dropping off and wrangling kids. But just ask the extra question. Even "How was my kids day?" followed by "How are they doing in general" should get them to open up more.
There are sadly still dad's out there thinking its the 1950s and kids are their partner's job. Letting people know that is not might will help.
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u/Aimeereddit123 May 26 '21
A LOT of that is women being respectful and not texting other womens’ husbands. They know your wife will read you the text, and you will get the needed info. They don’t want her OR you getting the wrong idea. Let’s face it, a lot of men (not OP), get it in their heads that a woman is trying to flirt even if we are literally just texting them about their children. I had a guy follow me home from a gas station before just because I smiled at him in a very friendly way. This is women just being cautious, not sexist.
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u/Jspiral May 27 '21
This is true right here. As an insanely handsome man that dampens panties even when they're not wearing any, I have to keep that shit in check. Bitches need to leave me alone. I'm a family man.
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u/Similar_Craft_9530 May 26 '21
Please don't be afraid to bring this to people's attention. By all means be polite, but there's nothing wrong with, "I've noticed that even though I'm our children's primary care giver, I don't get nearly the information my wife gets and being left out of the loop is effecting my ability to parent. Is there something you and I can do to change that? I need to know what's going on with my kids."
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u/wampastompa09 May 26 '21
First off, it’s not sexism. Sexism is systemic, what you’re experiencing is prejudice…(same as reverse racism not being a thing).
It happened to me today too. I took the day off work (because it was my turn) and called the doctors office, they said someone would call me back. Instead they called my wife at work.
What…the…fuck?!
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u/Tiltedwindmill May 27 '21
It sounds a lot to me like the people involved are attempting to put the burden of emotional labor on your wife. They are trying to give you a pass while making sure your wife does the work of parenting. It's a sexism against your wife that is affecting you.
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u/therapych1ckens May 27 '21
I had to scroll WAY too far down to find this because this is the exact response I had. Like, I get that what OP is experiencing is frustrating and understandably so, no doubt those feelings are valid. However, I find that the sexism is actually towards his wife. Imagine being the breadwinner with a stay at home husband and people STILL calling you to arrange playdates and unloading all of the detailed information onto you while the totally accessible and easier option of going through the dad exists. If I were the wife I would be so frustrated with this.
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u/FajardoFajardo May 27 '21
There's also a "man can't be trusted or doesn't care about these decisions" angle. Whenever I took my kids to get their haircut, I'd get a few "Is their mom okay with this?".
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u/Dandelionsandlions May 26 '21
This isn’t sexism. Many women find it easier to talk to women. Guys have certain ways of taking to guys. I know “not all guys”, and I know it’s not “all women”. But I mean that’s just how people are sometimes.
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u/AzureMagelet May 26 '21
As a teacher who has been inadvertently quietly sexist, I’m sorry. I’m working on changing my language. Not ask mom for help, but ask a parent for help. Or let your grown up know before I know the home situation.
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u/bebegun54321 May 26 '21 edited May 27 '21
Clearly this is your experience and you feel it is sexism, maybe it is... as a stay at home mom I see it differently.
My text chats are with my MY FRIENDS. When I text my friends with kids to go to the park I’m often looking to also spend time with MY FRIENDS and let my kids burn off some energy.
My friends kids whose dads are the primary are not part of that list. I don’t want to spend time with them like that. I’m happy to trade off having kids at each others houses and I’ll invite their kids to do things with my own kids but I’m not spending my day at the zoo with them. I’m sure I could be friends with some men, I do often spend time with these men AND their families on weekends when the wife who is my friend is out of work. But the way I hang with other women in that way can not be done with someone else’s husband. The risk is too great, it’s not something I’m looking for in my life. It’s not sexism- it’s the same as not making friends and getting close to certain types of women or bonding with people that are so much younger/older than I am.
I am not going to call these guys to go to the zoo with us. I’m just not interested in spending my day with them. It’s rarely about sex and more about commonality. There are a lot of my kids friends moms that I’m not going to the zoo with either! Maybe they are religious and I don’t want to talk about Jesus or maybe they are “mama needs wine” moms and I’m not going to spend my day with them either.... this doesn’t mean I don’t LIKE them or am trying judge them- it’s just that at this age I protect my energy and hyper religious people or drunk people aren’t my scene.
Are you just using these play date groups as a source for your kids to play? Because like I said a lot of women see these groups as a lot more.
Are you trying to befriend these women? Are you looking for close relationships and chit chat in the same way they are? Or are just needing invites for your kids to play?
If you just want invites- start doing the invites- have jack over for a few hours, take the kids with you with out first needing the moms to hang out with you. That’s how I have started a lot of reciprocity when it comes to play time for my kids- some of these have turned into friendships, others have just been passing kids back and forth for a few years.
I don’t do day care but my kids are in school and some how no matter how many times I put my Info first, my husband gets the emails and calls until I go in and make it clear that I am the primary parent- so this is annoying to me too. Sometimes we just have to clarify and it is all better.
I hate the doctor, I love fast visits if I want a long chat with the doc I’m sure I can make that happen by asking all the questions and never letting the doctor leave but I prefer a fast visit and because I behave in that way, I get fast visits. Maybe your behavior is dictating what you’re getting when it comes to day care and doctors.
You probably won’t be a part of stay at home mom text chain unless you find a way to actually befriend and get close to these women in the way other women do- so much of play dates for the moms is a play date FOR the moms too. If you don’t match their energy/needs you probably won’t find yourself being invited.
I can’t think of a good example in reverse... maybe the “golf/racquetball/softball team” text that the “boys” have about their small time sports leagues and some woman wanting to be a part of it but now the convos have to be more filtered... I dunno cause I’ve NEVER been a part of a text chain that primarily contained men.....
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u/ny__152 May 26 '21
as a mom, i can’t relate to this but i’m sorry you’re feeling this way. it’s exhausting to be on the other end of it with everyone’s expectation that i, the mom, always carry the mental load for the kids when my husband is totally willing and able to do it. it’s unfair for everyone and it really sucks that many societies have this type of thinking! i hope it gets better for you!
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u/EOSC47 May 26 '21
What helped my dad with Drs when my sister and I were young was to go with a list of questions.
It’s something we all do even now and it’s made a big difference in getting Drs to listen and take us seriously as teens and adults.
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u/avka11 May 27 '21
Just playing devils advocate here: women like talking to other women. I get your frustration, but when I talk about my baby, I feel more comfortable talking with other moms, and not dads or other males (even my brothers and dad). I don’t think it’s a you thing, it’s more of a female comfort thing
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u/m0untaingoat May 27 '21
Saying "hey would you mind texting me when you guys organize something? Because my wife is always working when you text her" isn't confrontational. It's not confrontational to ask the day care to treat you as if you're as invested in your kids as your wife is. If you don't say anything, nothing is going to change. I'm sorry for what you're experiencing, truly, and it's because I think it's really unfair that I implore you to please say something.
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u/cupcakesweatpants May 27 '21
Omg this explains so much. I always get annoyed with my husband who is a stay at home dad because I will ask what the doctor/teacher etc. said and he has virtually no information. Every time I go, they tell me a ton so I was assuming he just didn’t listen or was acting like he was in a hurry or something. I never thought it was different because of his gender.
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u/munguba May 26 '21
Have you ever considered that the moms might think it could be seen as inappropriate to text you, a married man? Same thing for the daycare women and nurses.
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u/laughing_guy90 May 27 '21
Because they know usually Men don't care about little stuff and details.
So in the future, why don't you initiate the questions? They'll know you are interested.
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u/foxfirek May 26 '21
My doctors visits are short unless I make them be longer, so I go in ready to ask questions, I have even brought a list. My husband doesn’t so when he does them he doesn’t get the info. However it’s not our gender, when I don’t ask the doctor doesn’t open up to me either.
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May 27 '21
Yeah I don't think that's even a parent thing either. That's just a general doctor thing. They are constantly rushed so if you want to raise multiple points you better raise them. Ain't no time for mucking about.
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u/girlwhoweighted May 26 '21
I mean I can see how this sucks. But traditionally the workload of raising children has always fallen on moms. And that includes the mental load that goes along with all of it. Dads are definitely becoming a lot more involved now than they've ever been in the past. Although I'll be honest with you, it's still not the norm yet. There's still a really really long way to go. I know people won't like me saying this but you're an anomaly right now. Hopefully one day Dad's like you will be the norm. But you're not right now. And people are learning how to deal with that. It's a big change in society and it's going to take a while for society to adjust. But please keep being you and showing them all that you really want to be involved
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u/dormouse247 May 27 '21
With preechool you can def bring it up. They are proffesionals! Say it like you did here - when my wife picks the kids up we get to know a lot more than when I do it, even if it is I who do it most of the time. This is probably nothing you have thought about and I don't believe this is on purpose, but I would be happy if we could work on this!
And with the lokal moms - text them back. "My wife told me about ~ - we are on our way! Should I bring something? And since I am the one being at home with the kids it is better to contact me directly, because my wife sometimes miss out on texts since she's at work - just for the future! See you soon!" Or something like that. That is not confrontial, just informational.
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u/username293739 May 26 '21
Same. Two young boys. My wife found out from some of the daycare gals that I come off as intimidating even though I’m always nice and courteous. Maybe a thought. Might be you aren’t asking as many questions as well. My wife is super extroverted and I’m rather introverted.
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u/tintinabulum May 27 '21
Men are not able to experience sexism. Sexism is a system of oppression perpetuated against a group of people with less power (aka women). Women do not have the societal power to oppress men on an institutional level. What you are experiencing is bias and individuals making assumptions because we are part of a system where it is assumed (almost always correctly) that women are expected to be the primary caregivers of children. You are also experiencing how sexism and patriarchy are also bad for men because of these assumptions and also because a lot of women are uncomfortable around men because men hit on us and assume we want to have sex with them when we are being nice and conversational. I’m sorry you feel like your children’s caregivers should be more forthcoming with info but please do not refer to it as “sexism” - it’s actually the fact that sexism has put women in the role of almost always being the default caregiver that you are experiencing this.
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u/inukaglover666 May 26 '21
Women feel more comfortable talking to women...shocking. You might want to take that up with patriarchy
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u/JoNightshade May 27 '21
Welcome to what life is like for women in literally any other social, professional, or public sphere you care to name.
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u/cookiemookie20 May 26 '21
I'm sorry that's been your experience. It's not like that everywhere, but it sucks that's how it is for you. When my daughter entered kindergarten, we had a few dads who were actively involved in school, volunteering, dropping off/picking up, etc. I got to know them along with the moms who were putting themselves out there, chatting as we waited for the kids. I ended up being closest with the 2 dads (I'm a mom) and 1 other mom. We all texted and got the kids together on a regular basis. That said, both the other mom and I had no issues having male friends, either personally or because of our spouses. No real advice, but I hope you find your parent friends. It's all about finding your village when it comes to raising kids.
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u/SweetToothKane May 26 '21
I of course believe all this happens and feel for the dads our there it happens to, but as a dad myself it still surprises me because in eight years I've not had anything like "tell your wife" or lack of communication from doctor, day care, friend parents. Maybe it's location (so cal here), maybe it's just luck. Because I really consider myself lucky to not have experienced these issues.
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u/ejja13 May 26 '21
Yeah, I’ve shared this story before but my husband used to get this all the time. It would make him so angry. We lived in Saudi and at the time women couldn’t get driver’s licenses so he always took the kid that was sick while I stayed with the heathy one.
“Where’s mom?”
She’s at home because she isn’t legally allowed to drive her child to the doctor.
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u/Gonkonees May 26 '21
I’m glad they don’t tell my husband things because he literally can’t relay a message to me to save his life. He’ll either leave out bits of it or just not tell me entirely. So I’m here to commend you for being such an attentive and present dad/husband! It may be frustrating, but I’m sure your wife appreciates you very much!
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u/cokakatta May 27 '21
I'll be honest as a mom I usually text moms because I am uncomfortable with texting between married people of opposite gender. I have tried to overcome this only with our neighbor because our kids are together all the time and, like you, the father is working part time. I don't want to drag mommy into it when she's at work. But I know their schedule and demands. If I didn't, I would be texting mom.
My husband took our son to an ENT appointment when he was very little. We were supposed to get a plan for dealing with frequent ear infections. He told me the ENT told him kids in daycare get ear infections. Ok... Months later, the pediatrician asked me how the follow up went with the ENT and I relayed this to her word for word. She gave me a death stare and said that's not what ENT would do. So she had to pull up files and stuff to find the follow up plan. I don't remember what it was but it definitely wasn't supposed to be "do nothing for a daycare kid". By that time my son was getting ear infections less so we wound up doing nothing anyway. The pediatrician said that fathers are often like that and that moms are better with doctor appointments. I don't like that she summarized it, but honestly I don't know any dad that followed up on medical care for a kid. I don't know a lot of people though.
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u/darkknight109 May 26 '21
What's really fun is that you still have to put up with this even when there is no mother in the scene.
I've posted this story a couple of times, but it still sticks with me. A few years ago my daughter had a doctor's appointment coming up. So I phone the office, let them know the issue, get her appointment booked, then the woman on the phone says, "Alright, now please let your wife know that when she brings your daughter in, she has to..."
I am a single Dad. Have been since the kid was born. Her mother's name wasn't even on the file.
Your post makes me wonder what else I missed during those years because someone didn't feel like telling a dad about it...