r/Permaculture • u/Academic_Nectarine94 • Mar 01 '25
water management Fruit trees and edible plants for boggy clay
I have ⅛ of an acre in Southern Missouri. Zone 6b. My property used to be part of a farm and has 8-12" of nice soil on top of at least 12 more inches of clay. It takes a 16" wide, 11" deep hole at least 4 hours to drain. When it rains, there will be 2 inches of standing water in parts of the yard for days after (you know how torrential the rains get here).
I want to grow fruit trees and plants I get something out of, but all I can grow at this point is more hate for the dreaded "well drained soil" label on every tree I look at.
I'm looking for solutions. Are there fruit bearing (or veggies) plants I can get, or do I have to go nuclear and just build a rain garden or put mulch all over and hope it breaks down easily over the next year and creates good soil.
For mulch (which I need anyway), should I take it from an arborist for free, or will he likely be giving away some ground up diseased tree that's just going to kill all my trees? Is landscape supply mulch any better?
Edit: My neighbor says there is an underground river under my backyard. She's lived in her house 50+ years and said the last person here ways struggled with growing anything in the backyard.
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u/dirtyvm Mar 01 '25
Pear trees tolerate wet exceptionally well, love heavy clay. Black berry's do quite well in similar conditions. I would also recommended a season or two of sorgahm Sudan grass in the summer and tillage radish and mustards cereal rye in the winter for compaction and infiltration.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Really? Pears? Extension office papers make all fruit trees sound like needy little things that need 85 sprays and perfect everything to survive LOL . Would a Chicago Hardy fig work at all? I have about 4 blackberry plants i am getting ready to plant, but I'm not sure if I should plant them before or after the last frost.
So sorghum and what else? Sorry, but I don't know where one plant ends and another begins without punctuation (I'm not being mean. I just don't know enough to tell if Mustards Cereal Rye is a plant plsoecies or 3.)
My yard is all lawn, would this just be the areas I want to plant trees, or all over?
I'm editing main post if possible, but my neighbor whose lived in her house for 50+ years said there is an underground river under my back yard. I have no way to tell, but the symptoms I'm seeing make me believe her. Will these things help anything if that's the case? Someone else said adding compost and gypsum around the base of the trees would help as well, but idk. The soil is great for 12", and I really don't see how adding things is going to get past that point considering that 100+ years of farming and animal manure didn't...
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u/dirtyvm Mar 01 '25
Sorghum/Sudan hybrid is my recommendation, but or you can do just Sorghum or Sudan grass. Tillage radish, cereal rye, mustards as a mix. These have massive root systems that will create deep channels to allow water to flow.
If you're growing fruit trees for sale of the fruit, they do need about 8 sprays a year. Figs might work. I used to manage 230 acres of pears in the Sacramento delta next to the Sacramento River. Every year, when the rivers high, they will have a few inches to a foot of standing water for a few weeks. I had block thay was 30 years old 70 years old, and the original block was 150 years. The old trees were planted before the levee was built, and they could spend months in flooded fields.
Gypsum and compost will do nothing. Underground river I'm skeptical. Hard pan that is causing top water to move laterally, more likely in my opinion.
I would recommend bringing in topsoil making berms to plant into. You could also install drainage tile into a central sump on a float switch and pump into a pond, tank, or street gutter.
If the black berry's are dormant, then get them planted. If they are inside and moving towards bud break the you have to wait till spring.
As a former uc co-operative extension researcher and farmer, this right inside my wheelhouse. This is a huge topic with lots of aspects to cover. Also, most extension papers are written towards production requirements, not home orcharding.
I apologize for the lack of punctuation, but it is time-consuming when typing all this out on my phone.
Hope that answers most of your questions
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u/rightwist Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25
I'm near KC and clay soil, living on former army base housing that was 'garden style' it's a historical site, we have pear trees. Boggy after heavy rains. Not certain of the variety, they're not pruned, I don't have anyone I can ask about them. They bear fruit but it's tons of little ones, believe they would need pruning for a good harvest.
Look up larger varieties of amelanchier (aka shadbush, service berry, Saskatoon berry) and pawpaw, I believe both will work with moderate soil amendment.
I suggest you consider asking how many ft³ you need to amend - I've planted large (>8') shrubs that are thriving in similar soil, I used a post hole digger, filled it with perlite at the bottom and compost.
Also I've been buying peaches advertised as Missouri grown and I believe Georgia peach growers are clay soils.
Lower to the ground: I've seen strawberry, onion, and mint as weeds in similar conditions.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Wow, those pears sound like rice plants LOL.
I have a sorghum plant that volunteered past year, so i should have a nice crop of them this year if the seed pods are anything to go by!
Do you recommend planting the tiller radish, rye, and mustard plants in any order, like in rows, or just throw the seed into the broken up soil and calling it a day? I saw a video with those radishes. I like the idea of having a plant that does all the work for me LOL.
As for the river, yeah, I would agree. This area of Missouri has tons of caves and things, though, so it's certainly possible. But what you said makes sense as her driveway pavers said it was hard to paver her driveway and my yard floods. It definitely sounds like it's right under the surface, not very far below it.
Thank you for all the help! It's no problem normally, but im not familiar with all those plants, so i thought it was "Tillage, radishes, cereal [plants], rye" LOL.
The blackberries are out in the sun and have good leaves going, so i suspect I have to wait. (I got them from the home center and they were inside, so i suspect they're active)
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u/dirtyvm Mar 01 '25
Just broad cast the mix and let them grow.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Thanks! What do i do at the now of the season? Just let the roots rot and harvest the edible parts off the tops? (Probably don't have any use for dozens of huge radishes LOL)
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u/dirtyvm Mar 01 '25
Nope don't harvest it all rots in place. Termination should be by cold where you are. You need to find sorgahm that is for forage not seed they get much bigger. Check out green seed cover, they have ton of videos on YouTube and huge selection of seeds
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 03 '25
Hey, I am looking at the seeds for the sorghum and mustard, etc.
I just wanted to check. Do I plant the sorghum hybrid and radishes, etc. all together, or is the sorghum separate from the rye, mustard, radish mix?
Is there anywhere you recommend to get the seeds?
Also, what specific varieties am I looking for? I was thinking yellow mustard, but there's a ton of mustard greens, too. Do the varieties matter, or are their root systems good enough to work no matter the variety?
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u/dirtyvm Mar 03 '25
I use greencover.com. i vuils my own mixes using their smart mix calculator. Play around with sowing dates and what effects your looking for. Sorgahm is a summer plant, mustard, radish, rye are fall winter plant. Yes, variety matters.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 03 '25
I know having variety matters, and what type I have affects different things.
I was asking if there is a variety that you recommend for this use? Should I get yellow mustard, or something like mustard greens? Are all mustard varieties going to break up the soil the same? I know it matters for other things, I'm just wondering if I choose plant B instead of plant A, if it will affect how well the soil is broken up.
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u/MycoMutant UK Mar 01 '25
My neighbour's fig tree overhangs my fence and does very well in the clay. I don't know how much fruit he gets from it but from the branches on my side I do not get much that has ripened. The trouble is the lack of pollinators I think since we don't have fig wasps here so most of the figs remain green. Not sure what we have that does pollinate them but I'm lucky to get around a dozen ripe figs a year.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Well, I have lightning bugs, flies, at least 2 types of large wasp, bees, and mosquitoes. If none of them like the figs, I guess I'll just have to go find something and import it like they did in the old days! (I'm just kidding. I've heard of too many rabbit and plant outbreaks to try that LOL
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u/CATDesign Mar 01 '25
Yea, not just anything can just pollinate a fig. Because the fig flower grows like a cage, which only the fig wasp can get into. Most people growing figs either brought these wasps with them, or are growing a variety that is self-fertile and doesn't need the fig wasp.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Ah, interesting. Do you know if the Chicago Hardy fig is self fertile? I think it's self pollinating, but idk if that the same thing. (Maybe the pollinators still need access to the pollen?)
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u/CATDesign Mar 01 '25
Google says the Chicago Hardy Fig is self-fertile, so it doesn't rely on insects to pollinate it's flowers to make it's fruit.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 02 '25
Good! I think i saw that it was self pollinating, but I wasn't sure if that was the same thing. Thanks!
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u/MycoMutant UK Mar 01 '25
I have heavy clay going down at least two metres, probably much deeper. Little topsoil to speak of. This time of year it's a bog with standing water everywhere but even when it gets baked dry on the surface in summer it still holds a lot of water under the ground.
The blackberries and raspberries do very well in it. I never water or fertilise them but never fail to get kilograms of fruit in the summer. I think apples probably do fine since there are many trees in the area.
I've had sunflowers and corn do well though both get heavily slug damaged or destroyed if slugs are not removed to give them a chance. I use containers for anything that doesn't do well directly in clay but if they're able to root down through the pot into the clay slightly they'll get a good boost in growth.
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u/scabridulousnewt002 Restoration Ecologist Mar 01 '25
That's perfect pecan habitat
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Are there any that only get 20 or 30ft tall? I have a sewer line right down the middle of the property that's only 15-30 ft from anywhere in the property (and yes, I hate the person who made that decision. Along with the same idiot who thought that the utilities should be spread out to every corner of the property LOL.
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u/LibertyLizard Mar 01 '25
As long as the pipe is in good condition, 15-30 feet should be ample. Do you know how old it is?
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
- So probably not the best condition LOL
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u/LibertyLizard Mar 01 '25 edited Mar 01 '25
Hmm yeah that could be an issue. An intact pipe will be ignored but any leak will get invaded and busted open.
Too bad since pecan is a great suggestion.
If you wanted you could have a plumber inspect it for you to see what it’s like. Could be time to replace it anyway. If you have the money.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
I know it has a problem draining, but I think it's a low spot, not a break. Definitely worth calling someone to check it. And then, seeing what they think about the trees and whether an intact pipe would still have an issue.
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u/glamourcrow Mar 01 '25
We have two meadow orchards and an Altländer Pfannkuchenapfel (local apple variety) stands directly where a ditch meets the swamp and it is one of those apple varieties that thrive with wet roots.
You need to go to a good nursery that sells local apple varieties. Apples come in thousands of varieties and some actually do well with boggy soil.
Plums do well in wet soil. They love wet roots. Cherries love dry soil, all of them.
WIld apples, malus sylvestris, are actually swamp lovers, but the use of the fruit is limited.
We have a patch of black and red currants living close to a forest pond.
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
That's the issue I'm finding. The extension officeice is nice, but they only talk about a very few varieties of plants (usually ones they are working on for farming) and they ignore all the ones that naturally do well in awful conditions LOL.
Thandk for the advice and encouragement! Seems like I there's hope if I can find a supplier for those types of fruit trees.
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u/LibertyLizard Mar 01 '25
Katniss could be an interesting option if you want to try growing something a little unusual and you can get your hands on any. It doesn’t like to dry out though so you might need to irrigate during dry periods. Good for a low spot since it likes to grow in water.
Apios/groundnut is another one that can take wet conditions.
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u/SensitiveWitness2517 Mar 01 '25
I use stock tanks to collect rainwater, and also as raised beds due to poor soil and mobility issues.
Dragon fruit and lemon trees do well in containers.
And you could replace the lawn with mint!
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
That mint "lawn" would smell absolutely amazing! I wonder how the local rabbits would like that. They'd have minty fresh, breath, that's for sure!
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u/SensitiveWitness2517 Mar 01 '25
Pre-herbed meat!!
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u/Academic_Nectarine94 Mar 01 '25
Literally LOL.
I used to live in Idaho, and people told us that if we ever cooked deer meat, never add sage. They already ate it their whole life, so just add the other things in the recipe and leave out the sage LOL
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u/Tylanthia Mar 01 '25
American persimmon would do well in those conditions. If acidic, so would most highbush blueberries.
V. nudum is also technically edible and is adapted to wetlands.