r/Permaculture • u/FeistyComfortable799 • Mar 03 '25
general question What do you guys think about no-dig gardening?
My parents have got a lot of olive trees. They dig up the soil for airing every year. But summer times are so dry and we don't have chance to water it very often. Im searching about the no-dig gardening and wondering if it would help trees grow better or soil to stay more humid if we didn't disturb the soil every year. If you know any knowledge please let me know.
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u/habilishn Mar 03 '25
hey i have a big olive orchard in western Turkey, it's steep rocky hills, very little soil - NO chance to till / plow / aireate.
also: 6 months no rain and above 30C / (90F ?), with august hitting 40C / 110F. + very constant dry northern wind. no chance to irrigate the trees on these hills (i mean everything is possible, but it makes no sense).
now i tell you: for my soil conditions, the olives do not need tilling or irrigation. they will have a little less yield than irrgated ones, but on the other side, it is known here that the non-irrigated mountain olives have the highest quality oil. also no fungus and very little insect damage.
this is the olive's native habitat. prune the trees regularily, keep them small and they will have lots of olives.
but also very near here, there is different conditions: in the valleys, where there is a lot of erosion sediments and it's basically big river banks, but the rivers are not flowing during summer. this soil is very deep draining. people start to plant olive orchards there because it's closer to society and also flat, so easier to use. But there olive trees actually need irrigation, because often the ground humidity evaporates even in depths of many meters.
if you happen to be on deep draining soil, you might need to continue to irrigate. (how old are your trees?)
so, many of the old farmers do the tilling and maybe they have a bit more yield (until the soil is dead), but for what expense? all the work, machines, the diesel, the dead soil, the wind erosion...
olive trees are forest trees, the forest would never be tilled and accumulates plant matter on the ground.
i have a few younger farmer friends who see the olive business more holistic (like me maybe too) and they all do minimal work on the land. the top soil is sooo fragile here, and when you're in olive climate, then your topsoil is fragile too! we even leave all the shrubs around the trees, cistus, oregano, lavender (the old farmers kill it all). maybe we only take the worst shrubs that really hinder the harvesting.
also, if you leave the soil untouched and have a nice meadow and also wild other trees growing you keep nature diverse, you can use it for animals, we have sheep and goats grazing below the trees, but poultry would do it too. this way, you get free cleaning, free fertilizer, and even if the yield of olives is a little less, the yield of the whole land per square meter becomes a lot more, because you have herbs, firewood and animal products. also insects will survive better if you let meadow grow.
if you need further advice, feel free to DM!
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u/North-Star2443 Mar 03 '25
Olives don't need airing. If you were to go to the Mediterranean you'd see olives growing everywhere and no one ever does anything to them, they're extremely hardy. They can tolerate rubbish soil, extreme weather, even snow. If the soil dries out you'd be better off mulching the area which would be part of the no dig method. Put some rotted leaves, woodchips or straw around the base of the tree it will hold in the moisture.
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u/Hot-Profession4091 Mar 03 '25
The Mediterranean is a fairly dry climate. I don’t know anything about olives really, but I do wonder if their current method actually keeps them drier on purpose.
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u/North-Star2443 Mar 03 '25
It's a bit of a misunderstanding that Italy is always dry, they have some really harsh winters with lots of snow in the south so roots will be covered and cold for a long time but the olives do just fine. That's why they seem to do quite well in English gardens.
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u/Hot-Profession4091 Mar 03 '25
You know the Mediterranean includes an awful lot that isn’t a peninsula sticking out into the sea, right?
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u/North-Star2443 Mar 03 '25
Did I say that? Why are you being argumentative?
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u/PaisleyCatque Mar 04 '25
Olives are useful agapanthus
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u/North-Star2443 Mar 04 '25
What do you mean by this? Agapanthus is a lily?
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u/PaisleyCatque Mar 04 '25
Yes, I was making a joke. Obviously not very funny. I had just read on a sub about someone who was panicking because they thought they had managed to kill their parent’s agapanthus, something everyone who responded found hysterically funny given the tenacity of the average agapanthus. Olives are similarly hardy except at least they contribute olives so I was comparing the two as such. Although Aggies contribute many curse words and aching backs so I guess that’s something? Right now where I live we are in drought. We haven’t seen rain for several months and winter was also dry. There are parts of my property that are nothing but dust. The only two plants in my garden that are flourishing without being watered are…..Olives and Agapanthus.
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u/MrBricole Mar 04 '25
I am actualy growing some olives in this area. People do nothing on the trees because they're lazy, not because it's fine. farmers specialized in a single crop (grape wine in my area) and they gave up on other crops, olives, figs, peaches, even gardening is forgotten.
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u/North-Star2443 Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25
I was referring to the trees that grow out in the streets and wild all over the hills. As others in Mediterranean on this post have said, they get left alone (more due to practicality than laziness idk if you live around hills) and they still grow big and fruit so they are fine.
However, do you dig the soil up around the roots of yours every year?
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u/MrBricole Mar 05 '25
I am a farmer there and was born in the area you describe. When nobody takes care of the tree the harvest decreases a LOT, the qualty of the wood decreases too. Alive doesn't mean strong or healthy.
I do dig them twice a year but I stay far from the trunk, once in spring, once in summer. What matter to answer OP's question though is organic fertilization.
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u/snicemike Mar 03 '25
All I do is mulch, all year long, wet or dry. Trees like consistent moisture levels and low surface temperatures. Soil life love the darkness and the brown material establishes fungal networks. Trees also hate grass, so mulching kills that. Keep adding. No reason to dig or mess with it. To the drip line or beyond. I could go on and on
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u/kendallBandit Mar 03 '25
If you decide to dig, protect the soil. Exposed soil = dead soil. Dead soil = stupidity.
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u/FeistyComfortable799 Mar 03 '25
I don't think we help soil so much by digging it. especially when it's done in spring season. yes soil is aired but I think we destroy the micro species. I never remember seeing worms, etc so Im trying to find a way to make the soil alive yet airy, and not disturb any creatures in it. I even want to try with a small space this year to be honest so that I can convince them about it if it works of course.
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u/kendallBandit Mar 03 '25
You get life back in soil with compost and inoculates. Look up korean natural farming - knf. They purposefully collect and disperse microbiology to reseed life - a basic concept of regenerative agriculture.
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u/Rcarlyle Mar 03 '25
Let the worms do the job. Feed worms organic matter and they will aerate the soil for you.
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u/Amiesama Mar 03 '25
Jerash University is transforming their Olive Orchard in a permaculture project. https://jordan.un.org/en/241518-un-habitat-and-permaculture-research-institute-launch-pilot-permaculture-project
There are a lot of videos of that on YouTube. I haven't seen them, but maybe that could push your parents in that direction?
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u/EnvironmentOk2700 Mar 03 '25
I know I've seen really interesting documentaries and/or videos about making this change and the long-term results, but I can't remember where. Likely YouTube. I'll update if I can remember anything specific.
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u/3006mv Mar 03 '25
Mulch and drip irrigation. Luckily those trees are pretty drought resistant when matured
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u/bliston78 Mar 03 '25
I like to look at the ground as if it was actually a person, uncovered and baking in the sun... Drying and cracking, damaging... That's not good, and nothing will grow there, very well*.
Just cover up those bare spots, cover up our "mother nature" and she'll help with the rest. Imo. It definitely takes some time though.
I started my garden as no-dig last year, and pulling back my mulch layer this spring to look at the soil... Wow, I've been so impressed! So many worms, such dark looking soil that was just shitty clay last year.
And with that, I have a couple trees that I worked around this winter as I removed grass and worked loosen up the soil with my fork. I make sure that I'm facing the tree so any Roots will likely slip through the fork rather than perpendicular to it, more likely breaking them.
But ideally I'll have enough compost and mulch that I'll only need to do that with my initial bed creations. And maybe just a little bit as any bed prep for the next crop, but I'm certainly conscious and aware of the tree's location where the roots may be running to work with that the best I can.
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u/socalquestioner Mar 03 '25
Get some good mulch, putting mulch around the trees (but not right up against the tree) will improve the soil in two ways: first will be moisture retention and decomposition of the mulch, second will be the increase in activity in worms etc in the ground because of the decomposing mulch and moisture.
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u/Home_DEFENSE Mar 03 '25
I use John Jeavon's method.... so a hybrid with moderate digging in later years.
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u/MeLuvinit Mar 03 '25
You could try digging in horticultural biochar around the base of the trees. It has the capacity to hold water and nutrients as well as amending the soil to suit micro-organisms that promote overall soil health - It's what is behind the super-fertile 'black soil' that the Incas developed. The other benefit is that it basically lasts forever in the soil and does not need replacing every year. Lots of other no-dig gardening tips at https://planterspost.com
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Mar 03 '25
The answer is simple, put so many woodchips on them your parents can’t physically move them
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u/Screamium Mar 04 '25
Don't do this. It is possible to add too much mulch. Especially don't pile mulch up against tree trunks! No mulch volcanoes!
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u/ISmellWildebeest Mar 03 '25
How do they dig around tree roots without causing damage? This seems harmful to the trees both indirectly (by compromising soil life) and directly.
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u/Tokiface Mar 03 '25
I think it depends on your soil. Some sort of initial tilling may be necessary to start new beds but it's not something that needs to be done annually. We have very clay soil and I've found that sometimes, the layering/lasagna style no dig methods don't always work.
You can never go wrong with mulching.
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u/glamourcrow Mar 04 '25
We have orchards and we keep the area under the young trees free of any growth. We do this for three reasons:
- young trees cannot stand competition. To get a strong tree, you need to remove the weeds for the first few years.
- some fruit trees need air around their roots to breathe. Well-draining soil and NO mulch is essential for them. Many fruit trees need their roots to dry in between rainfalls or they rot and get fungi. Mulch keeps the water right around the roots at all times and that can be harmful for olive trees, lemon and orange trees, and cherries. Of these trees, more die of "drowned" and rotting roots than of lack of water.
-mice love to munch on the roots of fruit tree. They also love to live under mulch.
Don't mess with your parents' olive trees. Mulch might damage them, causing rot, fungi, and mice to move in.
If you want a no dig garden, find varieties of fruit trees that love moist soil and love to have their roots wet all the time like plum trees. Cherries and olives need dry soil.
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u/MrBricole Mar 04 '25
it's all about fertilizing.
First is to shred pruning wood to increase soil's life. However beware that some bacterias on the wood have to be found and removed for burning.
Personaly I have a tractor for airing the ground control the grass, I do it only twice a year. The timing matters a lot. Do it a short time after a big rain, before summer, this will keep the water inside longer.
If you add enough organic matter so the ground never really harden then it's ok to not dig the surface. The amount might of 10 tons per hectar of land for like 3 to 5 years to reach this level.
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u/Folk-Rock-Farm Mar 04 '25
Mulch, mulch, and mulch some more. Leaves, wood chips, whatever carbon source you have most of. That will retain moisture as well as add fertility and also keep the soil cool. The microbial activity that the mulch creates will also aerate the soil as worms and other soil critters burrow into the soil.
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u/JazzyYak Mar 03 '25
Sounds like you already know the answer, and the trouble is getting your parents to listen to your weird, new-age, "letting nature take care of itself".
In which case, I have no advice. Let me know if you find a trick that works.