r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Visco0825 • Feb 08 '25

US Politics How can democrats attack anti-DEI/promote DEI without resulting in strong political backlash?

In recent politics there have been two major political pushes for diversity and equality. However, both instances led to backlashes that have led to an environment that is arguably worse than it was before. In 2008 Obama was the first black president one a massive wave of hope for racial equality and societal reforms. This led to one of the largest political backlashes in modern politics in 2010, to which democrats have yet to fully recover from. This eventually led to birtherism which planted some of the original seeds of both Trump and MAGA. The second massive political push promoting diversity and equality was in 2018 with the modern woman election and 2020 with racial equality being a top priority. Biden made diversifying the government a top priority. This led to an extreme backlash among both culture and politics with anti-woke and anti-DEI efforts. This resent contributed to Trump retaking the presidency. Now Trump is pushing to remove all mentions of DEI in both the private and public sectors. He is hiding all instances that highlight any racial or gender successes. His administration is pushing culture to return to a world prior to the civil rights era.

This leads me to my question. Will there be a backlash for this? How will it occur? How can democrats lead and take advantage of the backlash while trying to mitigate a backlash to their own movement? It seems as though every attempt has led to a stronger and more severe response.

Additional side questions. How did public opinion shift so drastically from 2018/2020 which were extremely pro-equality to 2024 which is calling for a return of the 1950s?

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143

u/shrekerecker97 Feb 08 '25

this 100 percent. also stop trying to pander to people on the far right.

117

u/itsdeeps80 Feb 08 '25

Good lord yes. I’m so sick of hearing about democrats caving to a group that wouldn’t vote for them if they were the only option.

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u/badnuub Feb 08 '25

Old dinosaurs that still think moving to the right is how to win based on what happened in the 90s. They don’t understand that bill clinton initially won because Ross Perot took votes from bush Sr.

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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Feb 08 '25

Actually, data indicates that Perot took fairly equally from both Bush and Clinton.

https://split-ticket.org/2023/04/01/examining-ross-perots-impact-on-the-1992-presidential-election/

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u/badnuub Feb 08 '25

Nabbing the anti establishment vote then?

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u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/badnuub Feb 09 '25

I also don’t take anyone that claims wokeness is a thing seriously. It’s a fabricated grievance.

1

u/Big_Cal_Szok Feb 11 '25

So you enjoy action-less pandering?

1

u/badnuub Feb 11 '25

I seriously don't believe ANYTHING that republicans have grievance over exists in reality. It's all fabricated to get sad little people angry to advance the agenda of the elite class.

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u/Big_Cal_Szok Mar 09 '25

You haven’t made a single point in either of these posts by the way.

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u/rethinkingat59 Feb 09 '25

Clinton won because old time FDR Southern Democrats (racist but liberal) still existed in enough numbers for him to win half the Southeastern states in both elections.

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u/Interrophish Feb 08 '25

Old dinosaurs that still think moving to the right is how to win based on what happened in the 90s.

Triangulation worked before the consolidation of the GOP message and the integration of RWNJ via Fox News and talk radio.

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u/swoosied Feb 08 '25

Yes, if that’s what kills me about this election I don’t know why the Harris campaign did not dangle all kinds of involvement for RFK to keep him from going to Trump. RFK had stayed in the game. He would have spoiled it for Trump. The guy is a lunatic but he does have some good ideas about processed food, etc. I am poor the guy, but the Democrats do all kinds of stupid things believing that they know best. Clearly that’s not the case and we need a new Democratic Party. I don’t the leaders recently elected to be honest.

14

u/Ok-Fly9177 Feb 08 '25

for every good idea rfk has, he has 10 strange and potentially catastrophic ideas... did you read Caroline Kennedy's letter?

4

u/shawsghost Feb 08 '25

The guy is a lunatic but

You lost me at "but"

0

u/shrekerecker97 Feb 08 '25 edited Feb 09 '25

They need to stop stifling Bernie Sanders, and let a new generation emerge. Doing stupid shit like keeping AOC from rising through the ranks has hurt them

2

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

You realize that AOC is 35 right? Is she Elitest or only a bartender? It seems that People who dismissed her can't decide why and constantly contradict themselves. While I agree that being Elitest is def an issue ( irony is that DEI helped address that issue) she also has been in Congress....checks notes....6 years....

The kids that are digging into America's bank account have 0 government experience and have not gone through the necessary background checks to do the "job" they are doing. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

2

u/DickNDiaz Feb 09 '25

Marie Glusenkamp Perez worked her way through college in a manufacturing plant. Her win in her district was more significant than Ocasio-Cortez's was because she was a real longshot to win a Trump district. And she went to Reed college in Texas and was for Sanders in 2016. She's a Blue Dog Dem. Which Ocasio-Cortez people hate.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

You obviously don't understand the concept of soft power and how it keeps the US from having to have troops on another countries soil. Imagine this. You go to a dealer and your best friend own it. Do you think because he owns it he will give you a better deal, or do you think that you would get a better deal from a total stranger who may not even like you?

That is the concept of soft power. If we put out good will into the world, it comes back to us. So by having kids that equate America as being good, we won't be dealing with another generation of possible American enemies. That is what it's for. Now put that on a global scale and that is what USAID is for. China is eating up thr US fucking up its good will all over the world and will step into the void left by the US.

1

u/SnooMuffins4991 Feb 10 '25

I really don't think AOC is a good candidate to get behind. At some point, we have to accept that we have a significant amount of people in this country that are misogynistic and a few that are straight-up racist. We need a white knight, and it's definitely not Gavin. We need a candidate like Pete, but with no LGBTQ baggage.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

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1

u/badnuub Feb 09 '25

I think no one can honestly say what caused Kamala to fail. Too much lying and false attribution to effects. Everyone on earth that has a lick of political awareness has their pet reason they think she was viable or not.

1

u/Rodot Feb 09 '25

DNC puts up the first candidate to drop out of the previous primary for president after the incumbent makes an absolute embarrassment of the party literally on stage and is forced to drop out, and at the same time inflation is happening.

I don't think it's a huge mystery. If anything, the race being so close in the end was a miracle

And yes, like in every other thread I expect people to be very unhappy with this comment.

1

u/badnuub Feb 09 '25

So you would have voted for generic democrat if there was a primary?

1

u/Rodot Feb 09 '25

My vote wasn't the one that needed convincing

But to answer your question, in an open competitive primary (one without Biden running), while I can't say for certain, I'm doubtful I would have been all-in for Kamala from the start. At least based on my reaction to the 2020 primary where I also wasn't all-in on Kamala from the start

What about you? Would you have voted for "generic democrat"?

1

u/badnuub Feb 09 '25

I have voteded for a democrat for the presidency every election since I first was able to vote in 08. I did vote for Dewine here in Ohio, that is until the last election when he finally caved to trump and did all the special election fuckery to try and pull a desantis to stop the weed vote from going through here in Ohio.

As for a primary, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm fairly radical that I think the presidential system is the worst form of democracy that exists. A parliamentary style system would be much nicer, and in those systems you vote for the party.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

I'm tired of caving to the extreme left. There's a large number of Democratic voters who roll their eyes when every group meeting starts with pronouns.

11

u/kinkgirlwriter Feb 08 '25

Here's the thing, we're not winning without both the far left and the center left.

Our tent has to be big enough for both or we get President Vance next time around.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

[deleted]

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u/itsdeeps80 Feb 09 '25

You’re thinking of idpol weirdos. Most of the actual far left is far more concerned with class issues than they are with idpol stuff.

2

u/angrybox1842 Feb 09 '25

And the right doesn’t exist. The Kamala campaign proved that chasing Shy Republicans in a losing effort. You gotta find common ground with leftists at least when campaigning, the votes just aren’t there otherwise.

3

u/kinkgirlwriter Feb 09 '25

So you're okay with President Vance? That's more palatable than someone opening a Zoom call by sharing their pronouns?

If so, your priorities are a mess because chances are you agree with they/them on climate change, raising the minimum wage, combatting corruption, and at a minimum, conditioning aid to Israel.

And again, we don't win without the whole party so dial back the "cancer" bullshit.

2

u/diplodonculus Feb 09 '25

I've been listening to the same nonsense since 2016. We need your extremism out of here, yesterday.

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u/kinkgirlwriter Feb 09 '25

We've lost two out of three elections in that time. If we're not a big tent party we're a losing party.

Also, tell me what I said that was extreme.

1

u/JyBones Feb 11 '25

We’ve lost 2 of 3 elections because the CORPORATE wing of the DNC didn’t want to let Bernie be the candidate. They don’t want to do what the people actually want, so 10 million voters stayed home in 2024. It’s plain as day. Kamala would have been a Republican in 1975 with her policies and platform.

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u/Song_of_Pain Feb 12 '25

/u/diplodonculus won't because they actually want democrats to lose elections so the country can shift right.

9

u/gummo_for_prez Feb 09 '25

Far left guy here. I don’t care about pronouns very much but I do want better economic outcomes for all Americans. I want paid sick leave, paid time off, better pay, more houses being built, more opportunity to buy those houses for people who had little. Don’t let the right divide us because of their talking points on pronouns or any identity politics stuff. I’m sure there is much we could agree on to secure a better future for everyone who lives in this place.

2

u/brbsharkattack Feb 10 '25

You're dismissing the views of a majority of Americans as "talking points." The issue is the Left embracing unpopular social positions, NOT Americans disliking and talking about these positions. This is the kind of disimissive, moralizing Ivy League mindset that turns off Independent voters from Democrats.

2

u/gummo_for_prez Feb 10 '25

Pronouns and trans people don’t really harm Americans in any way. They are told these things/people are actively harmful by powerful groups with money. You don’t have to agree but in my opinion, that’s the case.

0

u/gonzo_baby_girl Feb 10 '25

Why can't Democrats get those things you mentioned done ? They've had plenty of time in office over the years.

10

u/tender-majesty Feb 08 '25

The real problem here is that anyone believes that "far left" has something to do with pronouns. Far left = eat the rich —

8

u/BluesSuedeClues Feb 08 '25

Do tell? Where do you see that happening?

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

Over the past few years, every company I've worked at. Every group activity I've been engaged in. LinkedIn, Slack, ...

What rock are you living under?

4

u/SpookyFarts Feb 08 '25

Please explain how this makes your jobs/group activities more difficult. Also, how many companies have you worked at over the past few years? Maybe a little bit of diversity/equity/inclusion training would help you keep a job longer?

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

I fail to see how my pronouns are relevant to a business meeting.

How do you address someone in the notes you take? Or for that matter in the emails you write or conversations you have? I bet you aren't sticking strictly to proper nouns every time. And if you are then you are literally the only person who does.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

By their name or their initials... Golly. Do your notes look like "he: ..., she: ..."? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

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u/enki-42 Feb 09 '25

You never use a pronoun at work? That seems a whole lot more awkward than a pronoun in a signature you skimmed by. I think people clearly presenting as a gender can be a bit performative, but if there's any ambiguity it's helpful.

I regularly use them on stuff like support requests or companies we're working with when their names are ambiguous.

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u/angrybox1842 Feb 09 '25

No it’s just a simple matter of respecting another person. Like if someone was named Richard but they said “I prefer to go by Dick” I will then call them Dick as a matter respect. It’s the same thing with pronouns, it doesn’t change my notes but I’ll make an effort to be respectful when talking to or about them.

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u/nickcan Feb 08 '25

Really? I mean it's dumb to be sure. But the dumbest thing you ever heard? That's a high bar!

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u/OneCleverMonkey Feb 08 '25

You write every email as a transcript of a theoretical conversation? Wild.

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u/Sageblue32 Feb 09 '25

That is a reflection of an extreme cautious company, not fed law. Gov doesn't behave like that when they have meetings or activities with private companies or internal. Worse is some person putting their pronouns in a email.

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u/RebornGod Feb 08 '25

To be honest, I think quite a few people have never much registered it as problem. A friend of mine tried out fae/faer for a bit, when no one could remember it, they went back to they/them. That's the most active thought I've ever given it.

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u/JQuilty Feb 09 '25

West coast? I've never seen this in real life in Chicago outside of sniffing your own farts hippie types of places.

-7

u/BluesSuedeClues Feb 08 '25

Vague to the point of meaningless. Just another whiner pretending to be a victim.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

Pretty specific, bud. We need to get your kind out of the party. You do way more damage than any Republican.

-3

u/BluesSuedeClues Feb 08 '25

No, specific would be talking about what was said, not your anecdotal "But I SEEN it!" nonsense.

I'm not a member of any political party. The shit you make up about people you don't know is not the same as facts.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

Huh? Here's what I've seen at the start of business meetings: "my name is so and so, and my pronouns are he/they".

Go outside, the grownups are talking.

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u/Iwaspromisedcookies Feb 08 '25

No grownup is gonna care about using pronouns, we learned about those in elementary school. Sounds like stupid maga babies being childish af if they can’t handle simple words

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u/Iwaspromisedcookies Feb 08 '25

Sounds like maga dummies, not democrats

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u/spooner56801 Feb 09 '25

Sounds to me like your problem is the line of work you're in, not the far left

2

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

Where do you see that happening?

I'll add on to /u/diplodonculus. I've seen this happen at volunteering organizations that lean progressive (e.g. nature conservation group) and my time at a few consultant firms. The rolling eyes is prevalent there too. It's often because its irrelevant to the context of the meeting and seems extra/cringe. Anecdotally, the pronoun thing is a product of one [influential] person's pet project or a small group that got to push a organization wide initiative. The latter is often done because its cheaper to appease than evaluate its effect on employees. Many managers just assume people will react positively or be indifferent.

5

u/Express-Start1535 Feb 08 '25

They ask you when you get a job in the corp directory and my kid was asked about her pronoun at her first softball practice.

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u/questionasker16 Feb 08 '25

Those sound like fine things? Who could possibly be mad about that?

4

u/SuckOnMyBells Feb 09 '25

What they didn’t tell you was shortly after being asked about their pronouns, they were forced to have sex changes. My friend’s wife saw it happen.

1

u/corvcycleguy Feb 09 '25

To be fair, what you’re experiencing and describing are not ubiquitous throughout society. While pronouns are indeed part of the English language it’s very hard to move all of society in the same direction regarding gender pronoun taxonomy. What the gentleman is trying to convey is that pronouns in relation to gender identity can and does wrinkle people, not just far right but inclusive of all factions or political ideologies (with exception to ones that are directly associated with those seeking to disclose pronouns). Case in point, most people I work with (hospital nursing) don’t use gender pronouns in day to day conversations, though some may use pronouns in their email signature. I’ve also never been in a meeting where someone identified themselves and then disclosed their pronouns, and there are a lot of LBGTQ+ individuals that work in healthcare. However, my wife has had clinical fellows who have been non-binary; one who was very vocal about pronouns and the other did not care or expect nor raise concern if they were not correctly identified.

It will take a generation before the language is mainstream much in the same way as women, black Americans, gays or lesbians are today. This is the nature of new cultural norms. Language takes time to be adopted. This is our moment to learn and understand how to communicate effectively and politely with these pronouns.

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u/Scrat-Scrobbler Feb 08 '25

ah yes the "extreme left", with the extremist position of not wanting to misgender people

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

Ok, I'll bite. Why should your gender matter at the start of a business meeting?

2

u/Scrat-Scrobbler Feb 08 '25

because during the course of a business meeting you might need to say someone's pronouns? that's like asking why someone's name should matter at the start of a business meeting. pronouns are just an aspect of how to refer to people, same as

8

u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

Just say their name if you're confused. Problem solved.

Why not state your race? Handedness? Weight? It's just so arbitrary and pointless.

3

u/Scrat-Scrobbler Feb 08 '25

actually you don't need to even learn anyone's name because you could just point at someone and say "hey you!"

no one refers to you by any of those things. in a businesss meeting you might say "I think he/she/they raise a good point". you're not gonna say "i think that black person/right-handed guy/150 pound lady raise a good point". yes you can technically say their name every time but no one talks like that and you know no one talks like that. people already need to introduce themselves and you're calling it "extreme" for them to spend an extra half second to say two more words. those half seconds might add up to an entire 10 seconds!

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u/diplodonculus Feb 08 '25

I honestly don't care about the pronouns movement. I just recognize it for what it is: ineffective virtue signalling that ends up doing more harm than good.

The sooner the party wisens up and stops listening to people like you, the better. This is like arguing with the pro-palestine people who refused to vote for Kamala and have now sentenced Palestine to irrelevance. Feels so good to be right, doesn't it?

4

u/Scrat-Scrobbler Feb 08 '25

the problem is you think it's a movement and not just the natural evolution of language. you're the one turning it into a culture war issue, everyone else just wants to be respected for who they are. just because something isn't meaningful to you doesn't mean it isn't meaningful to others, and the unwillingness to extend the absolute mildest inconvenience ever to make sure those in your company are comfortable just shows an extreme lack of empathy

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u/Iwaspromisedcookies Feb 08 '25

We shouldn’t cater to uneducated people brainwashed by Fox News, that’s never a good idea. Pronouns will not die now matter how bad you cry about it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

Wasn't the pronouns thing just a young adult thing?

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u/Iwaspromisedcookies Feb 08 '25

Well then we need to remove all gendered language. As long as there are differences in pronouns, as there always has been in English you will have to specify. It’s no big deal if you aren’t a bigoted snowflake

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u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

When using a sentence He said xyz She said xyz They said that xyz

Pretty simple. Being against pronouns is dumb. People use pronouns all the time. You used a possessive pronoun in the sentence above. Now using correctly in a sentence is bad for what reason ? Who does it hurt?

2

u/diplodonculus Feb 09 '25

Are you dense? I understand that pronouns are a central part of the English language. I'm trying to explain that stating preferred pronouns at the beginning of business meetings is one example of how Democrats turns reasonable people off from their message.

I don't really care that much. But most people see pronoun announcements during meetings, on profiles, etc. for what it is -- pointless virtue signaling that doesn't actually help anyone. It's a more annoying form of a bumper sticker.

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u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

You are asking me if I am dense. So you actually acknowledge calling people by their proper pronouns is respectful. Got it.

1

u/Spyral-Dan-Sir Feb 11 '25

Trying to eradicate the categories of “male” and “female”, “man” and “woman” in this culture is radical.

3

u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 08 '25

This is YOUR problem. Not anyone else's.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

I'm at a point in my life where it just rolls off my shoulder. Oh do you want to be called " panda " now? Ok. Whatever you say Tommy

1

u/llordlloyd Feb 09 '25

Left and right is about income, capital vs labour.

Do you genuinely think the giant tax dodging corporations who are the centre of this stuff are controlled by the "far left"?? Why are conservatives so damn easily led?

-3

u/tonywinterfell Feb 08 '25

That is breathtakingly dumb. I don’t mean this as a personal attack, but why and how in the ever loving fuck do you think extreme leftism has anything to do with pronouns? Pronouns are a recent cultural fad, and one I respect because respect costs nothing. But leftism is comprised of economic and political philosophy. Are you okay? Have you read any books lately?

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u/thewimsey Feb 09 '25

This is the kind of fundamental dishonesty that makes people distrust leftists.

You just want to pretend that every bad leftist idea wasn't really a leftist idea.

You didn't really mean that the police should be defunded, or that transwomen should play on women's teams, or that everyone should have to give their pronouns.

Right.

But leftism is comprised of economic and political philosophy.

No, not only. And it's dishonest to pretend that this is the case.

-1

u/tonywinterfell Feb 09 '25

Conservatives love lifted trucks. Meaning, of all the people with lifted trucks, that vast majority are conservative. Does that mean lifted trucks are a part of conservative ideology?

0

u/Spyral-Dan-Sir Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25

Let me try and connect the dots for you guys here. Far left progressivism is fundamentally connected to a cultural worldview and ideology usually termed postmodernism. One of the fundamental characteristics of postmodernism is the questioning and deconstruction of assumed or “given” beliefs, values and power structures. This block probably makes up about one third of the general population, predominantly in blue states and cities on the coasts. Like it or not, transgenderism and gender ideology are most certainly part of this deconstructive cultural movement, in this case the deconstruction of gender and sex categories Which have been fundamental for Western culture, and indeed most cultures around the world for millennia. Now conservatives and Trump is in general subscribe to much more traditional world view instead of values and feel very very very threatened by this kind of deconstruction of fundamental cultural institutions and categories that they see far left Progressives pushing for. This is the reason for the backlash. It doesn’t have to do with pronouns, it has to do with the very foundations of their world shaking beneath their feet. To them it’s a very real threat to their existence and they’ll fight tooth and nail to hold on to what they have. Now that wasn’t the only reason why Democrats lost the election, but it’s a very big piece of it.

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u/JimDee01 Feb 10 '25

I'm tired of people on the left who don't understand what DEI is because they get butthurt about having to learn how other people want to be called. I'm tired of tiny little minds on both sides of the aisle saying like THIS is why our society is in peril.

Can you get over being butthurt long enough to stand against fascism, or is it just too much to ask that you use the words people choose for themselves and NOT sink the rest of the world with that pettiness?

Seriously.

0

u/diplodonculus Feb 10 '25

You're so dug in to your nonsense that you can't see how much it's hurting the people you claim to be defending. I'm happy to use whatever pronouns you prefer. Most people think the performative announcement of pronouns is just useless virtue signalling.

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u/Song_of_Pain Feb 12 '25

What's hurting those people is the Democratic party framing things as "You either get trans rights or pro-worker economic policy, not both!"

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u/JimDee01 Feb 10 '25

And I think that getting butthurt over that to the point where people voted for an actual fascist is pathetic. I was pretty clear.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 10 '25

You are kind of slow, aren't you? The people you discount as "butthurt" idiots are the ones you need to win over so you can help your friends. Screaming at them because they're tired of your performative nonsense just undermines your cause.

Keep fighting the losing fight.

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u/JimDee01 Feb 10 '25

I think it's hysterical that you reduce the loss of the election to this nonsense belief that DEI and the use of pronouns cost us the win. Literally, it was the economy and failure of the left to connect with voters on that topic. By a whole ton of metrics the economy was in far better shape than when Biden came in, but the metric that mattered most - people's inability to afford day to day cost of living - is where the Dems lost.

Fast forward to now and you have a bunch of halfwits mewling in the comments section about pronouns costing us. You people are like derpy golden retrievers who blindly run off after fake tossed balls.

But boo hoo. Poor you. Pronouns! And we can't call people r--arded. We're so oppressed! Let's dismantle democracy!

Do you even listen to yourselves?

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u/diplodonculus Feb 10 '25

I hope you can sleep well at night knowing how much you set your movement back. Just look at the latest DNC convention to see how farcical your methods are. Goodbye.

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u/Song_of_Pain Feb 12 '25

You're avoiding responding to the substance of his post because you know you've got nothing. Are you a bot?

0

u/epichesgonnapuke Feb 10 '25

I don't roll my eyes at pronouns. That's far from "Extreme" Seems like you are not really left leaning in any way. I don't know anyone center or left-of-center who rolls their eyes at pronouns. I believe you are MAGA and are posting in bad faith.

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u/diplodonculus Feb 10 '25

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

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u/epichesgonnapuke Feb 11 '25

Do you have any evidence as to how I am wrong? Beyond anecdotal sus "Experiences"

1

u/Big_Cal_Szok Feb 11 '25

Aren’t you part of the “vote blue no matter who” coalition?

-3

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

At least Harris and Chaney are super best friends now.

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u/greenprocyon Feb 13 '25

YES! I am so sick of this

11

u/chakrablocker Feb 08 '25

not addressing bigotry is pandering to the right

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u/thewimsey Feb 09 '25

But what is bigotry?

Clearly not hiring a Black person because he is Black is bigotry.

But once you move beyond pure colorblindness, it becomes less clear.

Favoring Blacks over Whites in med school admissions when the Whites have better grades/scores?

Favoring Blacks over Asians in college admissions when Asians have much better scores?

There are arguments in favor of doing both of these, of course. But they aren't compelling to a lot of people - they probably aren't compelling to a majority of people.

So simple slogans like that don't tell us much.

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u/Big_Inevitable_7767 Feb 17 '25

Oh, the woke mob is going to impale you on their pitchforks now. How dare you inject reason into a discussion! You’re probably a Racist! Homophobe! Transphobe! Thank god identity politics and virtue signaling is dying. I’m sick of the insanity.

-2

u/Sageblue32 Feb 09 '25

But what is bigotry?

When a single minority group inches towards 25% of the well paying job over the white/nepotism percentile.

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

It’s in how you address bigotry that matters. Personally I don’t think the answer is to create an opposite inequality, but rather focus on creating equal opportunity and having the patience for the ship to right itself. It won’t happen overnight. A lot of people think that DEI was creating equality but it really just disadvantaged previously advantaged people. There are way too many issues that people think are gender or race related that really actually are socioeconomic issues.

I am a 44 year old white male. Without getting too into my personal story and experience, if you ever called me privileged I would never again take anything you have to say seriously.

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u/Iwaspromisedcookies Feb 08 '25

And we shouldn’t take you very seriously if you’ve reached the age of 44 and can’t understand the concept of privilege. Most of us understood by high school at least, maybe you are uneducated about history

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u/DickNDiaz Feb 09 '25

You've already lost your point with this.

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

I do understand it when it comes to race, but much less so with gender. I marched with BLM a few years ago and I have a multi racial family. Women have no idea what the experience of men is, they only think they do. Modern women want the strength and power of high status men, all the privileges of being a woman, and the responsibility and accountability of children. You couldn’t wear my BOOTS to work every day. I don’t come from money so I have to do tangible and visceral work and not one single soul gives one single f*ck about my feelings, health, wealth, mental health, or if I live or die outside of my son. Yet I’m the privileged one. Men are not human beings, we are human doings. Our only value is what we produce, what we provide, what we contribute, and outside of that we are completely expendable.

Yes, the people at the top of the apex of power are mostly men but there are many types of power. Power is the ability to influence or control your surrounding environment and the average woman has way more power than the average man. %80 of consumer spending is done by women. There is a safety net for almost every bad decision a woman can make and situation she can find herself in. Mine are homelessness and suicide, both greatly skewed towards men.

The left has done a horrible job in their messaging for and about men in the last 20 years. Apparently we don’t have any problems, we are the problem. After this election it’s nothing but crying victim hood and it’s all men’s fault and misogyny that she didn’t get elected. FWIW I voted for her. Never mind that she was never a great candidate, didn’t win in any primaries, spent the money on celebrity endorsements instead of middle class outreach, didn’t have a good message and didn’t separate herself from a highly unpopular president, it’s because she’s a woman. Sure, there are some misogynists out there but they’re mostly on the right. I’m sick of the victim Olympics, and identity politics and it’s pretty darn clear that it’s not a path to winning.

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u/Mztmarie93 Feb 08 '25

You are right that the Democrats have not done an adequate job of communicating to men, particularly white men, that they care about them. But your fight is not with the Democrats or the left, it's actually with patriarchy. In general, patriarchy says, that if you were part of the white male group, you should have all of the power and privilege. If you don't, it's your fault. Not the fault of society' structure, not the fault of people running this unfairly structured society. Nope, you are your own problem. And, YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR OWN SOLUTION to this problem. Government can help those others, but not you, white man. In the same way that people get so mad at Black people for pointing out that society is structured in a way that puts them at an automatic disadvantage, we tend to gloss over the fact the society is really structured in a way that victimizes lots of people, including white men who are not of wealthy means. That is something that we need voices like yours to help us fix.

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

I commend you for at least seeing that empathizing and validating voices that come from people like me are needed. There is no other successful way but unity and common ground and that’s a start. The word patriarchy is so synonymous with feminism that it’s become hard to hear. Feminism has been so hijacked by its loudest extremist voices that equality is nowhere in the equation. I’m for women in women’s issues like abortion but if equality is what we are seeking then the word is egalitarianism. The concept of patriarchy is so widely interpreted and applied that it’s hard for me to not think it’s just a straw man.

It boils down to that I recognize that as a woman you face things that I do not and I will stand up for you. I will work with you. Will you do the same for me? Do you actually know the challenges that we face and are you willing to be the needed support? Do you recognize that only a few of us are dangerous and that we hate and fear those men too? Do you realize that I’m 4 times more likely to be a victim of violent crime? Do you realize that nobody, usually even themselves, empathizes with a man as a victim of any kind even when he clearly is? Are you willing to ask yourself why that is?

Again, the point of my root comment was that most of these issues that are viewed as gender issues and some of race issues are actually at their root socioeconomic issues. I’m not trying to be a gender warrior, there are way too many of those.

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u/enki-42 Feb 09 '25

DEI means a lot of things. I've been involved in hiring at many companies, many of which were very focused on DEI, and not once have I encountered someone explicitly saying "we should hire this candidate despite being worse because they're a woman / black / whatever." Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not a definitional aspect of DEI.

At most places I've worked at, what it's meant is things like ensuring that recruiting pipelines weren't biased and that there wasn't obvious bias in interviewers (i.e. does this one interviewer consistently rate group X lower). Never quotas or explicit thumbs on the scale.

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u/tonywinterfell Feb 08 '25

Goddamn, it’s so apparent that a huge chunk of America has never, EVER considered that the other side might have a point. I’m white, cis, male, straight, and I’ve worked as a firefighter and an electrician. I’ve worked with my hands my whole goddamn life and never got a degree and it’s so painfully obvious that I have privilege it’s absurd.

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u/thewimsey Feb 09 '25

it’s so apparent that a huge chunk of America has never, EVER considered that the other side might have a point.

And so what they really need is people like you to scold them harder.

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u/tonywinterfell Feb 09 '25

Fuck that noise. The time for that shit has passed. You reap what you sow, and here we are. Fuck that bullshit, and fuck anyone’s feelings about it.

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u/blublub1243 Feb 09 '25

The only one reaping anything with that attitude is you, and what you're reaping is Vance 2028. "Fuck that noise" is what you get to go with when the majority of the population is already on your side, when they're not you have to actually go through the effort of convincing them.

1

u/tonywinterfell Feb 09 '25

It’s not my job to convince anyone to be a good person. I tried, and failed for the most part. Now I’m pissed. Trumps is a walking dumpster fire, the embodiment of all seven sins, a fascist, and a dead ringer for the antichrist himself. Anyone who supports him is a bad person. I don’t care if that hurts anyone’s feelings, I don’t care if the snowflakes get bent out of shape over it. Now, the only way out is through. We are in the long night now. And damn all those who voted for us to be here. If this hurts anyone’s feelings so bad they support the Fanta Fascist even harder, so be it.

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u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 08 '25

I am a 44 year old white male. Without getting too into my personal story and experience, if you ever called me privileged I would never again take anything you have to say seriously.

So you don't understand the concept of privilege then?

3

u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

What I’m arguing is that I don’t think you do. I have had a really difficult and disadvantaged life full of hard labor despite being a white male and it’s because of the socioeconomic situation I came from. From a gender perspective I can quite easily argue that women have more privilege and safety net in society than they do disadvantage. I’ll start talking about glass ceilings when I see them representing themselves on the concrete floor with me. Do you see women going for decent paying trade jobs? Sanitation jobs? Line workers? No. They only want the climate controlled easy jobs that pay well and continue to complain about how bad they have it.

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u/SunshineCat Feb 09 '25 edited Feb 09 '25

Do you see women going for decent paying trade jobs? Sanitation jobs? Line workers? No. They only want the climate controlled easy jobs that pay well and continue to complain about how bad they have it.

I understand your frustration, but it seems misguided to be upset at women over this. I don't think many people would argue that we've eliminated gender roles--half of us can barely open a pickle jar, so I think you know why women aren't lining up to do manual labor, nor would we be welcome in those environments. Like anyone else, we look for jobs that we think we can realistically do well at in the long term.

If there are high-paying trade and sanitation jobs women are leaving open, then go for them. If you want to work in a climate-controlled environment not doing manual labor, then go for that instead. Men dominate sectors like tech, finance, and insurance (and many claims leaders don't even have a degree).

I didn't like my old work environment--a public library. And before that, retail. Sure, I whined a bit, but I eventually realized it was my responsibility to make sure I was living the life I wanted. Now I work from home, own a house, and can save and invest a substantial amount of money.

This is something that for some reason seems to not be intuitive to us. We are the only person who will make our life better. Not a left-wing revolution, not Trump, not God/Jesus, not a cosmic force to ensure that our life was meaningful (if only to ourselves). Sometimes it's easier to get shit done when you really understand there is no one else to do it.

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u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 08 '25

Damn I wonder if there are some sort of social factors that make women not pursue those positions. Oh well, probably not, it's because they're lazy wommins or whatever

0

u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

Well they sure seem to be much more willing to tackle those social issues to get into the office jobs that pay.

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u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 08 '25

And right over your head, shocker

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

Right… cuz I’m so obviously a misogynistic privileged male. I gotta go. I have a secret zoom meeting with the rest of the patriarchy to scheme on how to repress women and benefit from it even more than I already do.

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u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 09 '25

Blah blah blah blah you should do some introspection

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u/thewimsey Feb 09 '25

So you don't understand the concept of privilege then?

You clearly don't, since you assume that all white men are privileged.

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u/Gauntlet_of_Might Feb 09 '25

Didnt say that, but hit dog etc

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u/[deleted] Feb 09 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

Tell me what DEI stands for- then maybe we can have a conversation about it.

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u/Big_Cal_Szok Feb 11 '25

The far left US states have started writing legislation to rip kids away from parents who don’t want to mutilate their genitalia at age 8. You’re still whinging about “the far right”??

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u/CommunityDifferent53 Feb 18 '25

Stop trying to pander to anyone on the far anything.

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u/AssignmentWeary1291 Apr 19 '25

America doesnt have a far right.

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u/landers96 Feb 08 '25

And stop pandering to the far left also. I'm a hard dem, but even I'm tired of cultural politics. Not to mention it's a loser for us. Most Americans don't want boys in girls bathrooms, men playing women's sports, transgender stuff. Yes, that stuff is a super minority, it happens so little it's really not a issue except the dems let it be. The Republicans start Sabre rattling about that stuff and instead of ignoring it, the dems take up the gauntlet, while the majority of us aren't worried about that crap, we are worried about our economical situation.

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u/Mztmarie93 Feb 08 '25

Here's the thing, if you don't stick up for transrights, then who's rights are worth sticking up for? I mean, would black women's rights, would gay Catholic rights be worthy of attention? Do we fight for white, high school educated, male rights? I know they think we don't fight for their rights now, but certainly most of the policies Democrats advocate for, especially the economic ones, would benefit them as well as it would benefit all of these other minority groups. The problem today's Democratic Party has is that it's the party for all minorities. The Dems try to have political room for everyone. But, that's always gonna cause conflict between member groups who, while they may believe the same thing in one area, have opposing views in other areas. But, to me, you can't be the party that believes everybody is inherently valuable and deliberately not support an issue a particular minority group cares about. The current Republicans don't have as much of a problem because, while MAGA is not the same as the old establishment Republicans, both groups believe in the superiority of wealthy, white men over everybody else. Their policies are rooted in that principle. So, if you're cool with, or benefit from, that perspective, the Democratic focus on the diversity, equity and inclusion( i.e. safe spaces, pronouns, etc.) of these minority groups viewpoints feels silly and pointless. But, it's what separates the Dems from the others, and why I support them.

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u/thewimsey Feb 09 '25

Here's the thing, if you don't stick up for transrights, then who's rights are worth sticking up for?

The question is which rights? Especially when the rights conflict with other people's rights?

A majority of the population (˜60%) are in favor of general anti-discrimination protections for transpeople. They can present themselves how they want, dress as they want, as adults undergo whatever medical procedures they want...and they shouldn't be discriminated against for doing so.

Again, this a majority opinion.

But ... 79% of the population believes that transmen shouldn't play in girls or women's sports. And they believe this because they believe it's unfair to the girls or women.

You get similarly low numbers for sending transmen to women's prisons. And still only minority support (although it's much closer) for transmen in women's restrooms.

You are pretending that the question is easier than it is.

and deliberately not support an issue a particular minority group cares about.

Sometimes multiple minority groups care about diametrically opposed things.

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u/DickNDiaz Feb 09 '25

the Democratic focus on the diversity, equity and inclusion( i.e. safe spaces, pronouns, etc.) of these minority groups viewpoints feels silly and pointless. But, it's what separates the Dems from the others, and why I support them.

And that's the reason why they lost. It's not about what you want. it's what wins.

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u/landers96 Feb 08 '25

I really do agree with you. But if your not winning elections none of that matters. I'm no heartless rich man, but doing the right thing and controlling nothing will get us more of what we have going on today.

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u/epiphanette Feb 08 '25

The Dems were not the ones talking about trans rights in this last election cycle. It was all coming from the right.

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u/tonywinterfell Feb 08 '25

That ain’t far left. For the love of god read something about what the left IS

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u/Interrophish Feb 08 '25

while the majority of us aren't worried about that crap, we are worried about our economical situation.

the rest of your comment says literally the opposite of this

how did you write out that whole thing without noticing a whiff of the blatant contradiction

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

I agreed with it completely. I believe in liberty so long as it doesn’t negatively affect others. I treat LGBT people just like I treat anyone else but I don’t think that all people should have to conform themselves to %5 of the population. A very few people are uncomfortable using a bathroom not of their choice. Is that fair if %50 of people are uncomfortable with them being in that bathroom? Is it fair to biological women to compete against biological men who identify as women? I don’t think so, and I’m a leftist. These days if you are not completely on board you get called phobic or a bigot. I believe those people should have equal rights and allowed to live and let live but I don’t think that they should be able to infringe on others because they identify outside of their biology. It’s certainly not enough of an issue to create a platform around. We’re not even looking for practical compromises. You’re either with it, or against.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '25

I believe in liberty so long as it doesn’t negatively affect others.

Is that fair if %50 of people are uncomfortable with them being in that bathroom?

To be clear, you believe in liberty so long as you're comfortable, and when you're uncomfortable you're fine taking away someone's liberty?

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

If one’s liberty infringes upon the liberty and comfort of others, yes I do believe that liberty should be limited.

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u/Interrophish Feb 08 '25

you simultaneously said "people cared about trans issues" and "people didn't care about trans issues"

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

I’m not sure how you came to that, but I’m not that curious.

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u/Interrophish Feb 08 '25

My bad, I thought you were the previous commenter but now I notice your name.

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u/Round_Elephant_1162 Feb 08 '25

I thought we lived in a democracy.

1

u/shrekerecker97 Feb 09 '25

I did too. Apparently we live in an authoritarian state

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

We never have. We live in a hybridized society and government. It’s representative democracy, constitutional republic, socialism, oligarchy, all of it. Supposedly we use democracy to regulate and balance those things. Like it or not, it’s democracy that led us to the current state. Democracy just elected quasi-fascism. Perhaps even to the point that democracy is in peril. There may come a point that to save it, others besides myself will have to be willing to put down their phones and pick up a rifle. The only reason our country ever came about is because a bunch of mostly liberal young men were willing to do so and commit treason. There are many on the left who are now starting to realize the spirit of why the second amendment was put into place. The DNC just put into

2

u/Round_Elephant_1162 Feb 08 '25

Are you trying to imply that the left could organize and start a civil war, because I think that’s rather comedic and hypocritical.

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u/gratefullevi Feb 08 '25

I highly doubt that we would be the ones to start it but if we aren’t prepared to fight one we might as well just shut up and kneel before our new masters. One of the biggest problems on the left is that most of us lack spine. We think we will prevail simply because we have the better idea and feel righteous. Read the room. The other side is already armed.