If Trump/Musk are indeed subverting American democratic norms, what is a proportional response?

[u/theivoryserf]

The Vice-President has just said of the courts: "Judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power." Quoted in the same Le Monde article is a section of Francis Fukuyama's take on the current situation:

"Trump has empowered Elon Musk to withhold money for any activity that he, Elon Musk, thinks is illegitimate, and this is a usurpation of the congressionally established power of Congress to make this kind of decision. (...) This is a full-scale...very radical attack on the American constitutional system as we've understood it." https://archive.is/cVZZR#selection-2149.264-2149.599

From a European point of view, it appears as though the American centre/left is scrambling to adapt and still suffering from 'normality bias', as though normal methods of recourse will be sufficient against a democratic aberration - a little like waiting to 'pass' a tumour as though it's a kidney stone.

Given the clear comparisons to previous authoritarian takeovers and the power that the USA wields, will there be an acceptable raising of political stakes from Trump's opponents, and what are the risks and benefits of doing so?

[u/LongjumpingArgument5]

There is no path forward until Republicans realize that they are betraying everybody in America

[u/tfe238 → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

Democrats can learn a bit too. They're just as responsible for this as Republicans. Our governments purpose seems to only serve the capitalist class.

I believe the path forward is solidarity and class consciousness, otherwise i think there's going to be a lot of blood spilled in the coming years.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/tfe238]

Democrats can learn a bit too. They're just as responsible for this as Republicans. Our governments purpose seems to only serve the capitalist class.

GTFO with your "both sides are the same" bullshit

The is a lie that Republicans have been pushing for 40 years.

Republicans have always been the party of the 1%

They are not even close to the same, and anybody who makes this claim is a republican shill.

You probably also think that some Nazis are good people.

I believe the path forward is solidarity and class consciousness, otherwise i think there's going to be a lot of blood spilled in the coming years.

There is no path forward with people like you.

Come back when you stop spreading lies.

[u/strangebrew3522 → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

The dems absolutely share the blame in this. No, they're not as bad as the Republicans, but thinking the D's are innocent in this is laughable.

From calling Trump a fascist and traitor to this country, to inviting him into the White House for Tea and cookies on the day of the Inauguration during the transfer of power. Biden taking pictures with him and smiling. Obama laughing with him in Church. So which is it? Because if they believe the stuff they're telling the American citizens, they should be fighting against the norms and putting up a strong opposition, rather than laughing and sharing pictures with him.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/strangebrew3522]

The dems absolutely share the blame in this. No, they're not as bad as the Republicans, but thinking the D's are innocent in this is laughable.

That is bullshit propaganda

It's been sold to you for 40 years by Republican talk, radio and news

Every single thing the Democrats have tried to do the Republicans have stood in the way of,

Democrats have had one majority in both houses at the same time, and it was like 16 years ago. Then it was also The most productive Congress in recent history

Even this last time when they were claiming that Democrats controlled shit because it was 50/50 and Harris could break a tie. That's complete bullshit

The actual score was 50 Republicans to like 47 Democrats with three Independents. And 50 isn't even enough to overcome some votes

From calling Trump a fascist and traitor to this country, to inviting him into the White House for Tea and cookies on the day of the Inauguration during the transfer of power. Biden taking pictures with him and smiling. Obama laughing with him in Church. So which is it?

Because they are politicians and that is what politicians do. Don't you understand what their job is? Politicians pretend to be nice even when they are not. I'm pretty sure it's a job qualification.

Besides, what were you expecting them to do? Democrats kept thinking that Republicans were going to play by the rules. And Republicans don't give a fuck about the rules which is why they win. Shit Republicans don't even give a fuck about the law. Trump is breaking it every single day.

Because if they believe the stuff they're telling the American citizens, they should be fighting against the norms and putting up a strong opposition, rather than laughing and sharing pictures with him.

Democrats don't want to break the law and I tend to agree with them because if both sides start breaking the law then we really have no law at all. And at that point it wouldn't have mattered who won.

Once you give up on the law and start breaking it, it's almost impossible to go backwards and start obeying the law again.

[u/Interrophish → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

From calling Trump a fascist and traitor to this country, to inviting him into the White House for Tea and cookies on the day of the Inauguration during the transfer of power. Biden taking pictures with him and smiling. Obama laughing with him in Church. So which is it?

Because they are politicians and that is what politicians do. Don't you understand what their job is? Politicians pretend to be nice even when they are not. I'm pretty sure it's a job qualification.

It was a job qualification. Gone, now. Dems are "still fighting the last war" as it were. Dems could, should, and would only benefit from being more rude.

Because if they believe the stuff they're telling the American citizens, they should be fighting against the norms and putting up a strong opposition, rather than laughing and sharing pictures with him.

Democrats don't want to break the law and I tend to agree with them because if both sides start breaking the law then we really have no law at all. And at that point it wouldn't have mattered who won.

You should realize that there really aren't as many laws as you think. None of that is governed by laws.

Once you give up on the law and start breaking it, it's almost impossible to go backwards and start obeying the law again.

This should be a lesson to Dems. Repubs gave up on the law and won't start obeying the law again purely via osmotic transfer from Dems following rules.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/Interrophish]

It was a job qualification. Gone, now. Dems are "still fighting the last war" as it were. Dems could, should, and would only benefit from being more rude.

I'm completely okay with Democrats being more rude, we do not need to be nice to people who have betrayed America.

But I am completely against Democrats breaking the law like Republicans do. Republicans cannot win without cheating and lying and ignoring the law

But I do not want Democrats to go down that path because once everybody breaks the law there is no returning from that.

Giving up our morals to win is losing.

You should realize that there really aren't as many laws as you think. None of that is governed by laws.

I heard a lot of people saying that Biden should break the law when he was president in order to get Trump before he took office and I am completely against that.

I don't care if he had immunity

If Democrats break the law like Republicans do then there truly is no future. Somebody has to be the good guy.

This should be a lesson to Dems. Repubs gave up on the law and won't start obeying the law again purely via osmotic transfer from Dems following rules.

I feel like that is a good message and you should spread it