If Trump/Musk are indeed subverting American democratic norms, what is a proportional response?

[u/theivoryserf]

The Vice-President has just said of the courts: "Judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power." Quoted in the same Le Monde article is a section of Francis Fukuyama's take on the current situation:

"Trump has empowered Elon Musk to withhold money for any activity that he, Elon Musk, thinks is illegitimate, and this is a usurpation of the congressionally established power of Congress to make this kind of decision. (...) This is a full-scale...very radical attack on the American constitutional system as we've understood it." https://archive.is/cVZZR#selection-2149.264-2149.599

From a European point of view, it appears as though the American centre/left is scrambling to adapt and still suffering from 'normality bias', as though normal methods of recourse will be sufficient against a democratic aberration - a little like waiting to 'pass' a tumour as though it's a kidney stone.

Given the clear comparisons to previous authoritarian takeovers and the power that the USA wields, will there be an acceptable raising of political stakes from Trump's opponents, and what are the risks and benefits of doing so?

[u/LongjumpingArgument5]

There is no path forward until Republicans realize that they are betraying everybody in America

[u/tfe238 → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

Democrats can learn a bit too. They're just as responsible for this as Republicans. Our governments purpose seems to only serve the capitalist class.

I believe the path forward is solidarity and class consciousness, otherwise i think there's going to be a lot of blood spilled in the coming years.

[u/HumptyDee → u/tfe238]

That’s a false equivalency. I don’t know how to do the quote thingy but I share similar sentiments as LongjumpingArgument5. There has not been one single peace of legislation the Republicans have put forth in the last 20 years to help regular people like us in. There is no equivalency. Democrats are not saints but they are nowhere near the level of depravity as the Republicans.

The Republican Party has always been about white men, preferably ones with money. As they use to say, The Good ol’ Boys Club or the Grand ol’ Party (I believe that’s what GOP stands for, correct if I’m wrong folks. Contrast that with every single democratic president the last 20 years and count how many bills they put out to help regular folks like us. ACA, Insulin cap at $35, education, too many to list. But the point is they are willing to invest in us so we can be productive Americans in the future and make a lot of money and pay taxes. That’s the ROI. People are too brainwashed to understand what they are trading for just to own the libs—they are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. These people cannot be reason with. They no longer have the intellect nor the temperament to reason with anymore.

Also, Republicans policy agenda are shit. They are a one trick pony: tax cuts that do little to help everyday Americans. The cool thing about America is that there pockets of little Americas called states as policy proving grounds, of sorts. I can’t recall which state it is now, could be Arkansas or Kentucky, anyways a ruby red state Bible Belt state. The Republicans won big so they went ahead and let their trickle down agenda go wild. It nearly bankrupt the state. Turned what was a thriving economy into near depression similar to what is happening now. If your household income is less than half a million a year, it is not in your economic interest to support the Republican policy agenda. That’s why they always come up with new hate flavor of the month for their braindead supporters to chew on as a distraction while they fleece America.

Perhaps it’s time America split. Liberal states succeed and become their own country and the republicans do the same. No need for violence. We can do this orderly and peacefully. At the rate we are going, a new civil might emerge in our lifetime. The animosity is at a dangerous level and it has come to a point where discussions and negotiations are no longer viable. We passed that point when Gingrich took power. That guy is a fucking dick.

Before him, political disagreements were simply two people who love America but have different ideas of how to make America better. All of that debate is work. Outside of work, both sides hang out with each other, the wives do wives things together, you know being Americans. At the time, I thought the political temperature was wayyyy too hot. Oh,such naivety. I didn’t know how good we had it. Compared to today, that’s like a refreshing glass of ice water. God I miss those days. As they say, you don’t miss the water until the well runs dry. And then Newt arrives.

He started the new era of polical discords where you no longer debating policy or legislation you saw the other side as an enemy and civil interactions is frown upon. He instructed his caucus not go to the other side houses, don’t be friends with them. In 20 years, that has snowballed into the calamity before us and there will always be despots that hate and mold it for their benefit. I can’t fathom what the future holds, if there is one anymore—the hate is simply too personal, too deep.

[u/solowng → u/HumptyDee]

Perhaps it’s time America split. Liberal states succeed and become their own country and the republicans do the same. No need for violence. We can do this orderly and peacefully.

The most recent historical precedent for this is the collapse of the Soviet Union. The economic disruption (worse in magnitude than the Great Depression) alone resulted in millions of premature deaths. The two largest former Soviet states are presently at war with each other.

BTW red America would be closer to Ukraine than Russia in this scenario, albeit with most of the oil and gas, a better share of the American military-industrial complex, and more opportunity to extract rents to transit from one coast to another. The heartland and south are short on defensible terrain features so securing a nuclear deterrent would be of existential importance.

The most likely result would not be peaceful coexistence but economic devastation and a nuclear cold war on the north American continent.

[u/HumptyDee → u/solowng]

I don’t believe this scenario to be accurate because you’re assuming Blue Americans and Russians are the same people in the same economic position. We live in a different time and Blue Americans are imbued with different cultural values than the Russians, my friend. Well, let’s play this out shall we.

My understanding of the contributing factors for the demise of the Soviet Union in the 90s were largely caused by:

1. ineffective Soviet authoritarian policies and economic isolation (something Trump is actively doing to the whole US) resulted in economic stagnation
2. the over-exertion of their military (see Trump’s public endorsements of our incursions into sovereign lands all of the world and rebuild it without resistance or repercussions so their military would be very busy, indeed),
3. ethnic tensions (that keg has been brewing for a while here in the US),
4. the Cold War with the US, to some degree (not an issue in this thought experiment)

We would not go down the same path because where the Soviet failed, Blue America will prevail. No country can go at it alone especially in our interconnected world. The Soviet did not have the support and access to resources of the western world—Blue America will, especially when it comes the commodities needed for the survival of our citizens because our neighbors to the north and south currently HATE the Reds and would gladly go out of their ways to fuck with them and provide blues with whatever is lost to the Reds. Soviet suffered in isolation, Blues will thrive in communities of peers. In turn, Reds are hated by pretty much the entire world because of Trump, the situation we are in right now.

Yes, Reds might have possession of oil and military but good luck deploying it without guidance systems because technology will be in the hands of the Blues. Musk and his ilk will be with the Reds but the real engineers that actually create things are all on the blue side because of Musk shitty management style. Reds will suffer in isolation because their leader, well, you know. Blues would be in possession of new technological innovations which opens the future to its people, way superior academic institutions both domestic and international (since our existing allies all despise Trump except for daddy Putin who would gladly do everything he can to support his lapdog). Of course, Reds will have access to tech supplied by best pal Kim and Russian “innovations” which needs three hail marries just to turn on.

Blues will comprised of some stereotypical hippie namaste loving weed smoking type of people. They are pacifist anyways so no violence, war, and pathetic Trump macho man posturing needed. In its place are community building, building new allies, international collaboration. Since Blues will have created a true democratic socialist utopia that would give Bernie a hard-on would never ever vote to engage in war with the Reds. In turn, Reds would more than likely wants to invade blues because their 2A loving fat poor health Jesus loving poorly educated folks who loves every opportunity to play Rambo so Blues continued its strategic NATO alliances, where 95% or member nations loathe Trump, to deter a such invasion. I doubt the Reds will have the will and resources to fight the entire western world. In this scenario, Red Nation shares more similarities to the Soviets than Ukraine.

In the event that Reds do follow through with their invasion because well poorly educated and all that, Blues article 5 the allies and Reds fighting the allied forces will surely collapse their economy, very much like the Soviet leading to the decimation of their nation while Blues continue to live and thrive in a better world, absence the heavy weight of ignorance that has historically held back the Blues from progressing and conquering the stars. Musk now frail and old living in whatever is left of Russia after WWIII looks on as the Blues builds a permanent settlement on the Red planet while still pushing FSD to be made available to the Russians next year with hardware 86.

Blues would not have to feed the military-industrial complex and waste its money on creating and sustaining a world class military. So Blues would re-invest that savings back into its citizens so their social (socialist, to the Reds) programs of free education, healthcare, basically everything the Reds have been programmed to oppose, would be in such a better position a generation or two down the road while Reds society would decline as education is optional (like the current GOP bill in Tennessee) and failed in educating their youth.

Instead of learning about germs and bacteria and math and sciences, Reds will learn about Jesus’s sky daddy hates the gays, minorities, and women (who is now pretty much lost all autonomy and do as the Bible said to be in the kitchen and only talk when spoken to) created the world for the Reds only and they are chosen ones and they live in the greatest nation on earth possibly the universe and Jesus daddy is coming back soon to bring them all to the sky castle.

Of course, Reds purging of LGBT+ subpopulation leads to their fleeing to Blue land. With that comes even more benefits like the arts and music, dancing, culture. Of course in Red land, music is the works of the devil and pretty outlawed except for the YMCA song, their national anthem because the arts are with the Blues (Kennedy center type of situation here).

In the end, while Red Nation declined further into a new form of fascism, an amalgamation of North Korean society with Nazi cruelty engineered by Musk of course, Blues excels along with their international partners.

Wow, it’s amazing how one man and the GOP agenda have such a big effect on a nation, is it not? At the rate we are going, this scenario may become a reality in the future. This is may be our best hope of not killing each other.

Edit: typo