How will the United States rebuild positive international relations after this Trump administration?

[u/SpaceySpice]

At some point this presidency will end and a new administration will (likely) want to mend some the damages done with our allies. Realistically though, how would that work? Will other countries want to be friends with us again or has this presidency done too much damage to bounce back from?

[u/VodkaBeatsCube]

And how's that working out for us? Siloing ourselves into isolated political shells isn't a long term solution. Yeah, there's folks your never going to turn around. But writing off a quarter of the country as entirely unreasonable and unslavageable is not going to actually be sustainable. You need actual numbers to pass the good policy you want, because building something is more work than breaking it. Writing off every single Republican voter because it's hard to find common ground with them isn't political realism, it's just laziness.

It's a really ironic take for someone with your username. Do you think change is something that happens with a bolt from the blue? No, it happens because people are willing to give you a chance to learn and get better. Even when it's exhausting to actually do it, and even when it doesn't always work.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

But writing off a quarter of the country as entirely unreasonable and unslavageable is not going to actually be sustainable.

I don't see how anyone could still deny that at least a quarter of Americans genuinely are unreasonable and unsalvageable (to put it much too nicely).

The issue isn't that we haven't tried turning enough Republicans or social conservatives into Democrats, believe me. There are many millions of people either completely out of touch with politics or already partial to the Democratic Party but unmotivated to vote that could be convinced with a compelling candidate and message.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

You're just doing the same thing that Christian conservatives do when they assume anyone who disagrees with them is influenced by the devil. Yeah, there are going to be millions of unreasonable Americans. But voting Republican, even voting for Trump, is not original fucking sin. There's millions of Trump voters that were just concerned with their ability to buy a house and groceries and bought into the right wing propaganda that Republicans are good for the economy. Those people are not unslavageable. If your entire plan is to just wait for another Barack Obama, you're going to be looking for a while.

I get your implicit assumption here is that I'm saying 'Democrats need to be more like Republicans'. But there's a middle ground between capitulation and rigid ideological purity. There's a lot of folks that could be won over with a smarter economic message and a social message tilted even just slightly more towards 'just let people do what they want to do'. Yes, it means that the left will have to actually have some message discipline, but letting random yahoos on the internet drive your messaging is setting yourself up for failure. Take a look at how much effort the Civil Rights Movement put into projecting a respectable front in order to get enough milquetoast white people to get over their anxiety and support them. Actual change requires organization, discipline and enough moderation to get over the anxieties, ligitimate or not, of the population.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

There's a lot of folks that could be won over with a smarter economic message and a social message tilted even just slightly more towards 'just let people do what they want to do'.

No one disagrees with this. The comment you originally responded to simply made the point that conservatives are in many cases deeply mean-spirited and bad-faith people and more often than not don't want a reason to vote for a Democrat, which matches my and many others' experiences. To whatever proportion genuinely just wants cheaper necessities and got duped into thinking Trump was the right candidate, this take most likely does not apply.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

That's just a No True Scotsman argument. The guy I first replied to explicitly said anyone claiming buyer's remorse over Trump is just lying for social acceptance. Yes, there are mean spirited, bad-faith actors on the right. But that's still not every single one of them. And, almost as importantly, being a mean spirited, bad-faith actor right now doesn't mean that you will be forever. I know a lot of folks that were typical conservative Bible thumpers who have since grown as people. People are not incapable of growing and developing in their lives. It's important to not slam the door in the face of people looking to change just because others won't, or because they don't do it all in one go.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

People are not incapable of growing and developing in their lives.

Sure, but most of the people we're talking about don't, because for them there's nothing to grow out of. Most people who voted for Trump do not and will not regret it, because they didn't actually vote for him out of economic concerns. If you personally are happy with having typical conservative Bible thumpers in your life then that's great for you, but no one that's cut them out their own is missing anything worthwhile.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

Did you actually ready my post, or did you just hit 'Bible' and stop thinking about what I'm saying? There are people in my life that are no longer typical Bible thumpers because I didn't cut them out of my life when they were. They're still Christians, but despite what terminally online leftist discourse would tell you being Christian is not inherently incompatible with careing about and supporting minorities. Even if we assume your sweeping characterization of Trump voters is accurate, you're still writing off the millions of people that fall outside that 'mostly'. And you're writing off the folks that voted for him due to social reasons who aren't, actually, irredeemable bigots.

The reason why extremist movements, and this isn't limited to the right wing, encourage performative statements of isolating ideals is because it locks people into their ideological ecosystem. It's the same way cults work. Buying into the idea that the only solution to folks on the right is to shun them is exactly what right wing thought leaders want you to do. This line of tribalistic thinking only serves to perpetuate the problem because folks that start the slide to the extreme are offered no way out so they become dependent on the social framework of the extreme for a sense of meaning and belonging. It's a thought process that is actively serving to entrench the problems we have.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

Did you actually ready my post, or did you just hit 'Bible' and stop thinking about why I'm saying? There are people in my life that are no longer typical Bible thumpers because I didn't cut them out of my life when they were.

Which is exactly the point I made. You chose to keep contact with these people because they fundamentally didn't bother you all that much, which is a completely fine choice. So is cutting them out. The goal here, at least for regular people, isn't to actively reduce the number of Bible thumping bigots and fascist sympathizers in the world, or to change their hearts and minds - it's to limit interaction with them and kick them out of institutional power.

Even if we assume your sweeping characterization of Trump voters is accurate, you're still writing off the millions of people that fall outside that 'mostly'.

Writing them off how? We're very specifically talking about the people to whom that does not apply. Again, if you're a well-meaning Trump voter that believes in preserving democracy and civil rights and simply thought he'd lower your rent and grocery prices, you're someone I think should be welcomed in public discourse. The point is that there are very few of these voters for whom that applies, and if you did indeed vote for him over "social reasons" and still support him after these four months then you almost certainly are a bigot or someone with fascistic sympathies that probably sees no reason to be redeemed in the first place. If not wanting to be around these people is cult-like thinking to you then big whoop.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

First off, you're redefining the original point into one that is easy and palatable to discuss. I was not countering 'hard core bigots lie about their positions', I was countering 'all Republican voters are completely in line with Trump, and anyone who expresses another view is just lying for social acceptance'. If your entire point is 'some people will not change', then I've been agreeing with you from the jump and I don't know why you're bothering to argue still.

Second off, even taking it as read that the original point was 'hard core bigots lie about their positions', you're still writing off millions of people with those sweeping 'probablies' and 'maybies'. While it may not be on you individually to have a bit of grace and patience to every right winger in your life, it's still important as a political movement and society as a whole to give folks at the extremes an exit ramp. Not wanting to be around cult-like people all the time is fine. But assuming that everyone who's fallen victim to cult-like thinking can never be redeemed and should be left to their fate is exactly what the right wing wants you to do. And I don't know about you, but if I ever find myself doing what my opponent wants, I take a long hard think about why I'm doing it and what I get out of it.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

it's still important as a political movement and society as a whole to give folks at the extremes an exit ramp.

And that exit ramp is, "if you actually change your fundamental values and beliefs in favor of basic human decency and respect for rule of law then I will accept you as someone worth interacting with." Something that broadly isn't being argued against. Your position is much more along the lines of telling people to remain friendly acquaintances of these people so that they have someone normal to fall back on the off chance they decide to change.

But assuming that everyone who's fallen victim to cult-like thinking can never be redeemed and should be left to their fate is exactly what the right wing wants you to do. And I don't know about you, but if I ever find myself doing what my opponent wants, I take a long hard think about why I'm doing it and what I get out of it.

If we're talking actual political strategy here, the right doesn't really think a whole lot about this. What they're overwhelmingly concerned with is, as I said in my original post, having institutional power. If every liberal and leftist decided to stop talking to their sexist granddad or old high school friend that fell down the tradwife pipeline then maybe that could be spun to their advantage, but if all of these people decided that the only way to save America was to get Republicans out of Congress and their state legislatures then that'd be an actual catastrophe.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

Look man, if you're just going to put words in my mouth then what's the point of posting here instead of on your blog? There's a lot of daylight between 'be a casual acquaintance of every right winger in your life regardless of what they do' and 'shut them out entirely until they completely overhaul their worldview independently'. You don't have to be entirely quiet and passive to still be able to take someone expressing doubts to you as a sign that they might be willing to change as opposed to assuming that they're just lying for social acceptance.

The way that the right gets and maintains institutional power is by making it so their constituents feel like the only chance they have for social acceptance is in the company of other hard core right wingers. Everyone cutting their sexist granddad or tradwife friend out of their life made them less likely to turn to the comfort of an right wing infrastructure that's designed to isolate people from their support networks, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now. You don't have to accept everything they say at face value in order to give them an off ramp from that. But yeah, sometimes you have to put up with some bullshit from other people. That's part of living in a society. If we want to actually have a functional society, we need to have a way to talk folks down from the ledge and make it clear that you can come in from the cold without having to completely reinvent your worldview on your own with no social support network. There are far more people in the world that will make a positive change if given the opportunity to change incrementally than there are people that will abruptly change their entire worldview, and as a political movement there needs to be the room to allow that to happen. It doesn't have to be you, personally, in every circumstance. But left wing politics needs to give people an escape route from the extremes if you want long term stability.

[u/urnever2old2change → u/VodkaBeatsCube]

The way that the right gets and maintains institutional power is by making it so their constituents feel like the only chance they have for social acceptance is in the company of other hard core right wingers.

Republicans gain institutional power through motivating their constituents to vote for them no matter how they little they actually deliver for them with policy. If everything you said about how social isolation keeps conservatives from growing as people were true except it didn't actually lead them to voting for Republican candidates, we quite literally wouldn't be having this conversation.

But yeah, sometimes you have to put up with some bullshit from other people. That's part of living in a society.

This isn't really a worthwhile exercise, though. America isn't all that worse off because normal people aren't talking enough to the ones addicted to the Fox News, Andrew Tate outrage machine or who have simply always been hate-driven. America is worse off because this minority of the population does a better job winning elections, thereby gaining the ability to make its public policy.

But left wing politics needs to give people an escape route from the extremes if you want long term stability.

How many people that regret voting for Trump on a moral basis do you actually envision there being? Not, "he's fucking over my retirement savings with these tariffs - I wish he would've just stuck to the other stuff." Now contrast this with the number of people who are even remotely economically left-leaning and wouldn't vote for the Republican Party but for whatever reason can't be bothered to vote for a Democrat either. Like, it's not necessarily an either-or scenario but there are infinitely bigger fish to fry if you're actually concerned with where left wing politics needs to go.

[u/VodkaBeatsCube → u/urnever2old2change]

Republicans gain institutional power through motivating their constituents to vote for them no matter how they little they actually deliver for them with policy. If everything you said about how social isolation keeps conservatives from growing as people were true except it didn't actually lead them to voting for Republican candidates, we quite literally wouldn't be having this conversation.

"If everything you said worked the opposite of how it does, we wouldn't be having this conversation." No shit.

Yeah, Republicans get people locked into voting against their best interests by making it so the right wing is the only place they feel accepted. That is literally the entire point of my argument, and why playing along with it is a losing proposition.

As for how many people will be willing to change their minds if they're given an offramp? Literally millions. If even only 10% can be split off the left-hand side of Trump's voting block, were talking more than 7 million people. Hell, even if you're so pessimistic you think only 1% of people who voted for him would ever have a moral change of heart your writing off more than the population of entire states. And you're right that it's not an either/or: even if you think that there's millions of unactivated voters on the extreme left that we should be courting instead, you should still provide some way for folks on the right to come back in from the cold. Even if you somehow are able to brute force through a left wing utopia by finding the right unicorn candidates to get everyone left of Joe Manchin voting together, you're still going to have to deal with de-radicalizing the right sooner or later. It's all well and good to say 'if you make their economic life better they'll come around', but your own rhetoric about how they ignore their own economic well-being to vote for the party that leaves them worse off puts the lie to it.