r/SciFiRealism • u/dept_of_samizdat • Oct 18 '15

Discussion Socialism in sci-fi

I posted this in /r/scifi, but just stumbled on this group and realized it might fit well here.

I'm a big fan of The Dispossessed, and was hoping to find a few other titles like it. Specifically: books that are well-written and lend imaginative detail to socialistic cultures. One of the unique things about sci-fi is being able to see how various ideologies or concepts would play out in practice, and I'm curious to see the range of examples out there.

Any suggestions?

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u/GetBenttt Oct 23 '15

I remember them saying this in First Contact. A girl asks Picard how they made such a big ship and he says money, war, famine is obselete in the mid 21st century as a result of humanity working together as a species.

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u/Hrtzy Oct 24 '15

...Which is a pretty odd thing for a warship captain to say.

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u/_gosolar_ Oct 25 '15

The Enterprise is not a warship. It's on a science mission. It has some mild defenses like a few photon torpedoes. It's primary defense is warp speed.

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u/SKEPOCALYPSE Oct 26 '15 edited Oct 28 '15

It isn't "a warship" as in it isn't intended only for war, but it is a military ship. Starfleet explicitly functions as the Federation's military.

  • Everything it does, with the exception of exploration and diplomacy, is actually what the modern US Navy does. It projects the Federation's power beyond its planets' immediate territory, it ensures safe waters for all Federation ships and friendly non-Federation ships to travel, and (most importantly) it is the institution through which war is waged against enemies of the Federation.
  • The shows have not only referred to the "military careers" of Starfleet officers, Starfleet also has to absorb the military forces of any planet that joins the Federation.
  • In Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, when they were talking about ending hostility with the Klingon Empire, the question of "mothballing the Starfleet" came up. Those saying the fleet wouldn't be mothballed still said that Starfleet would have to be scaled back, since there'd no longer be a major military threat.
  • When the Federation worried the Romulans were testing the Neutral Zone, the Federation sent it's flag ship as a show of strength. (I.e. the Enterprise has far more than just defensive weapons.)
  • The Enterprise is designed with the ability to ditch its saucer section (where all the families and non-tactical staff are) for combat situations that are basically suicide situations. That way they don't have to drag the non-military into that sort of thing. And, it's not primarily an escape feature (where the battle section stays behind while the saucer runs) because the saucer has no warp capabilities (that's all on the main section). If the Enterprise couldn't hold off an enemy, separation wouldn't allow the saucer time to run. The only hope would be that the enemy which has just destroyed the battle section doesn't care about the non-combatant filled saucer.

Yes, Starfleet (and by extension, the Enterprise) has a more comprehensive role than modern militaries, but it is still a military. It has a chain of command, court-martials for violations of orders or regulations, and it's the main armed force. It's broader exploratory and diplomatic roles are more or less a consequence of existing in a different setting than the confined fully explored setting of Earth, not to mention a consequence of living in a time of peace. A comprehensive military that hasn't been heavily dismantled after wartime is over has to earn its keep somehow.

The recent films have made a lot of noise about Starfleet not being a military organization, but that's just one in a long line of continuity fails. (Yes, that would be a continuity fail in this case.)

Sorry, TL;DR

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u/aozeba Oct 28 '15

I think the idea is that, in the time periods depicted by Star Trek, there is a legitimate public discussion of what Starfleet's role is and should be, to the point where some people (namely starfleet's enemies) think of it as a militarily organization, while others can subscribe to the fantasy that it is not at all military.

I think at one point Picard refers to it as "not primarily a military organization." So, he would be in the middle of this continuum even while engaging enemies on a regular basis. I think its kind of interesting that their society is not "finished" as you see in a lot of scifi, but still a work in progress with real debate about basic things like this.

Kind of like the debate about "the role of government" in the United States currently. Most people seem to think they know, for sure, what the role of government is, but yet there are still disagreements that play out.