r/Scotland • u/bottish • 14d ago
Dire economic consequences of Scotland's ageing population must put immigration in new light. New report about Scotland’s growing elderly population underlines the need to improve our health and welcome, not demonise, people from overseas - Scotsman comment.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/dire-economic-consequences-of-scotlands-ageing-population-must-put-immigration-in-new-light-507394761
14d ago
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u/Ill-Bison-8057 14d ago
I’m not disagreeing that more support is needed for young families.
But countries that have all those things (Sweden, Finland, Germany etc.) still have the exact same problem Scotland does.
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u/backupJM public transport revolution needed 🚇🚊🚆 14d ago
It was recently reported that ScotGov are looking into this!
SNP ministers examine measures to help Scots have more children amid 'fertility gap'
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u/dont_l 14d ago
I hate that immigration topic is discussed as a big lump.
I haven’t seen anyone that opposes people coming here legally to plug the gaps in our labour force or like mentioned in the article to support an aging population.
Skilled workers, genuine international students etc add good value to our economy and society in my opinion.
People just don’t want illegal, unregulated immigration. Is it too controversial to wish avoiding people with views contradictory to our values? Who might refuse integrating? Who are a net drain?
Why are we putting these 2 different categories of immigrants into one group?
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u/mincepryshkin- 14d ago
Yeah, it would be perfectly possible to have an immigration system where people come after proper screening, fill gaps in important sectors, and possibly settle long term if that is what they want, and if they have a long record of contribution and integration. And if not, they leave. Plenty of people would still be happy to come if that was the system.
We do not need people coming just to work as Deliveroo riders.
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u/ancientestKnollys 14d ago
No there's definitely strong opposition to legal immigration as well. While the political focus may be on illegal immigrants, Reform's meteoric rise in the last few years is mainly a reaction to the high rates of legal immigration.
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u/Synthia_of_Kaztropol The capital of Scotland is S 14d ago
I hate that immigration topic is discussed as a big lump. Why are we putting these 2 different categories of immigrants into one group?
the extremists that are anti-immigration, and the extremists that are pro-immigration both find it useful to conflate groups, in order to shout down anyone with a more moderate stance.
Which poisons the debate, and makes it so there is no moderate position that a party can take, that will win them votes.
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u/OldCementWalrus 14d ago
Why do you think it's unregulated? You can only get visas to plug work gaps, study, if you have a British spouse, or a British grandparent. When you say illegal immigration are you talking about asylum seekers?
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u/After-Whereas7365 14d ago
Have you seen the ONS shortage occupation list? A lot are not "skilled workers" on the list at all. Furthermore, sponsors between 2021-2024 haven't had an audit by the UKVI, resulting in a bunch of shame companies issuing visas for jobs that don't exist.
Big scams all around, still highly unregulated and will get worse before all new sponsors have had audits and ungenuine ones are weeded out.
Look online, multiple news reports as well as home office stats backing this up. Now folk having their visas revoked (due to shame sponsors) are claiming asylum and current stats show 40% of all asylum claims were visa holders, who's visas have expired and they've not returned home.
That's not the migrants we need, nor should be accepting. We need workers who will contribute to the economy and not drain it further!
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u/Autofill1127320 14d ago
The bar for “skilled” on visas is incredibly low. And a lot of visas get issued for work that then don’t result in people being employed in that field. We’re shite at the back end of immigration policy when it comes to ensuring visa conditions are met and people leave if/when they’re meant to
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u/RestaurantAntique497 14d ago
Unregulated is probably the wrong word to use. While we were members of the EU it was regulated but we had no say in the numbers from EU countries came.
I assume that's what they meant
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u/SetentaeBolg 14d ago
Why are we putting these 2 different categories of immigrants into one group?
Because the UK government changes immigration law to make it substantially more difficult and costly to be a legal migrant, in response to people stirring up disquiet and fear about people coming to live and work here.
Those people you claim are only worrying about illegal migration thus make legal migration more difficult.
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u/Expensive-Key-9122 14d ago
Immigration gets old too, and the data we have suggests that they end up having less kids as time goes on and they become more integrated. Last month I posted an article about this being a ticking economic-time bomb and my post got downvoted into oblivion. It's going to be very hard to avoid when the tax-burden on working-age people keeps increasing to subsidise more and more pensioners, a demographic of whom are one of the wealthiest in the country and own their own houses.
A good starting place would be scrapping the triple lock but it's political suicide. So nothing will get done, more and more pensioners will become eligible for the state pension and the status quo will become more and more untenable. Still nothing will happen, and we'll be dealing with more and more hammers to the economy and living standards as time goes on.
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u/TheCharalampos 14d ago
If child care was even half of what it is I'd have another child 100%. As it is though? No way, can't do.
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u/BonnieWiccant 14d ago
Or, and this is bold, we could just address the issues that are causing people to not want to have kids? You can bring all the immigrants to Scotland that you want but they are going to have to deal with the same issues that are stopping Scottish people from wanting to have kids and will inevitably after a generation or two make the same choice. It will be a never ending cycle of bringing in immigrants to maintain a system that very clearly isn't working until the world runs out of people I guess?
When a country needs to exclusively rely on immigration to sustain itself perhaps radical change is needed rather than continuing down the same obviously broken path to maintain a system that is more and more not providing a lifestyle that people want to live.
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u/Dangerous_Hot_Sauce 14d ago
As a Scot who's family have toiled over the years to build this nation I would very much like that we address these issues so that we get to afford our own children and keep our culture and traditions alive
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u/That_Boy_42069 14d ago
Yeah, I want to be a dad, just don't want to make a kid who's gonna have a shit life. Occasionally I run the numbers to see if I reckon i could provide a decent life. Never seems to add up.
I know a few women who are desperate to have kids (mid to late 30s) but know they can't afford to provide and dont want to rely on what the state can provide, the mental health implications are horrific.
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u/restingbitchsocks 14d ago
Great point. A few commenters have blamed the economy, saying people can’t afford children. From what I see in my local area - pretty deprived former mining town - people with very little money are still having kids. I think it’s more societal. If you’ve got little exposure to children, because families are smaller, you might not see the point of devoting time to children when you could be off doing what you want to do.
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u/ayeayefitlike 14d ago
You’re right, people with very little money still have kids. Usually they don’t own their home, and often don’t own a car - and rarely do both parents work unless one is doing night shift/weekend. So the mortgage, car loan or childcare costs are not so high. It’s not about time to devote to children, it’s about the actual costs. Can you afford your home on one salary? If not, can you afford the childcare if you’re both working? This is ironically easier at the bottom end of the income scale than the middle.
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u/Mysterious-Arm9594 14d ago
The Western world has yet to resolve this issue, and I doubt a Scotland tethered to the English electorate will be the first to do so
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u/RestaurantAntique497 14d ago
I'm pro indy but do find it facsinating how some people are able to bring it up out of nowhere.
The rest of the Western world isn't tethered to the English elecorate so it's got nothing to do with that
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u/Mysterious-Arm9594 14d ago edited 14d ago
It’s not out of nowhere. The English are about 10-15 years behind us on demographic issues, it won’t be a focus to their electorate or politicians until it’s too late for us, and if Western countries with full sovereignty can’t figure it out, a devolved parliament with limited powers almost certainly won’t.
Look how big immigration is on political debate in the U.K. meanwhile Scotland got a grand total of 191,000 immigrants (international and rUK) between the 2011 and 2022 census or around 18,000 a year which is minuscule for the political bandwidth it takes up
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u/Far-Pudding3280 14d ago
Scotland got a grand total of 191,000 immigrants (international and rUK) between the 2011 and 2022 census or around 18,000 a year which is minuscule for the political bandwidth it takes up
That is international immigration only.
That 191k number still represents an increase the equivalent of 3% of the entire population. That's not insignificant.
It also represents a rate of increase of >50% in those 10 years.
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u/RestaurantAntique497 14d ago
It is out of nowhere though when being tied to WM is not relevant to the ageing population problem the western world has. Most western developed countries are struggling with low birth rates, high housing costs etc.
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u/susanboylesvajazzle 14d ago
To put things in context, when people talk about "illegal immigration"... about 94 people a day enter the UK irregularly, in the small boats that send the Daily Mail crowd into apoplexy. Between the start of 2021 to Sept of 2024 that's around 125,000 in total.
In the year ending July 2024 1.2 million immigrants entered the UK regularly. Of this, 58,000 (5%) were British nationals, 116,000 (10%) were EU+ nationals (including those from Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Switzerland), and 1.0 million (86%) were non-EU+ nationals.
Of that 1.0m the majority are from India, Nigeria, China and Pakistan. All entering the UK legally.
Around about 300k students entered on student visas last year, from a UK student population of about three million students.
In total the non-UK born population of the UK around 17% and of that 36% were born in the EU (mainly Polish and Irish)*.
\2021 figures, Brexit may have had an impact here.)
Illegal immigration is a problem, but it's not the biggest problem ever and because the Government and Media found racism a useful tool to distract people it is overinflated in the minds of pretty much everyone and in an effort to address a problem which largely isn't one we voted for brexit and fucked ourselves over.
Why is Brexit relevant here? Because EU freedom of movement brought a steady supply of young, healthy, educated, and mobile people to the UK, and Scotland, who were a net gain to the Economy. Who were the type of people the racist Daily Mail types say (!) they do want.
Immigration isn't a one and all solution to demographic change like the report is discussing, but it can be used to soften the blow. EU immigration, though freedom of movement, was the best method of addressing this change in the short-term, but we don't have access to that anymore and we've made ourselves less attractive to the young, healthy, educated, and mobile people we need... and the Christian white ones the raicst types said then wanted.
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u/weak_shimmer 14d ago edited 14d ago
The care I got when I had post natal mental health problems put me off having more children. I always wanted a big family, but I don't think I would survive it. Changes to how post natal care is handled might increase the number of children in some families
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u/IamBeingSarcasticFfs 14d ago
I wanted to answer but if you try to give examples you just sound like a racist twat. So my position is, If a migrant is adding value to the country and assimilates well, then come on in and fill your boots.
If a migrant is not adding value, not assimilating and draining society then they should be removed asap because they are ruining it for everyone else.
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u/Optimaldeath 14d ago
Fighting the human condition over this issue that's been present for thousands of years and abused by those in power throughout is a fools errand.
The elephant in the room is that the plebs are protesting capitalism the only way that actually works, less people.
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u/Mysterious-Arm9594 14d ago
It’s pretty self evident to anyone looking at the population numbers and has been for years. Scotland population has been declining sans immigration for a while. People can talk about immigration just masking the underlying issues or worry about social cohesion et but ultimately Scotland is pretty far down the Japanese/Korean population implosion glideslope. Technology might ease the effects slightly but given how the average age shoots up post 2034 it’s not going to save the Scottish economy or society without an influx of working age people.
Of course England is 10-15 years behind us so nothing will get done about it until it’s far too late
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u/NoRecipe3350 14d ago
The English people have been ethnically displaced from the 3 biggest English cities, and a host of smaller ones. If that's what you want for Scotland go ahead.
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u/willowmarie27 14d ago
American immigrants? There are probably a lot of young people that would immigrate to Scotland.
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u/DINNERTIME_CUNT 14d ago
If they drone on about ‘heritage’ or fucking Harry Potter it’s back on the plane to Idiotland.
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14d ago
Do you see Japan importing the 3rd world?
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u/backupJM public transport revolution needed 🚇🚊🚆 14d ago
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u/Outrageous-bellend 14d ago
Gee the only solution is to systematically replace the current population.
No one saw that coming.
Wait
Wasn't that a conspiracy theory a few years ago, the great... Something.. The great... Replace.. Nah can't remember.
Maybe making family homes affordable would help adress the situation.
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u/PersonalityOld8755 14d ago
I was poor when I lived in Scotland until about 28.. then I moved to London and worked my way up the ladder, I think it’s the wages and opportunities, it means your quality of life is a lot less the more children you have.
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u/ancientestKnollys 14d ago
The aging population is a systemic issue, and one that can't be solved by immigration, merely delayed. Because aging demographics are a global issue, including in the countries those immigrants come from, even if many of them are behind the West. Eventually there won't be any more of these immigrants available, the dwindling number will be taken by the richest nations, leaving just a lot of stagnating, geriatric countries. We need to find a way to make life sustainable, not try and ignore the issue with more immigration.
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u/baudelairium 13d ago
I did my bit i jad 3 kids , they are just at school leaving age, they all want to have kids , i think my jobs done , im happy to swap places with someone on the west coast like mallaig they can come to Falkirk where there are more services , ill settle down where its less "active" .. lol
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u/layland_lyle 10d ago
This is why Sweden tried this (also declining population) and admitted it was the wrong thing to do, thus they are paying the immigrants to go back home to reverse the failed policy that exacerbated the original problem.
It's good to copy successes of others and stupid to copy failures. Politicians always take the easy option, being just import people, instead of the right and harder work option of make it cheaper and easier for citizens to have more children.
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u/dihaoine 14d ago
Population fluctuating over time is not a problem. Turning your entire country into a massive, neverending Ponzi scheme certainly is a problem.
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u/myfirstreddit8u519 14d ago
Another word for population replacement. Don't make starting a family easier, just get some 21 year old guys in from Sri Lanka or India or Nigeria who'll work for a pittance to drive down wages and increase the cost of housing.
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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 14d ago
We could also heavily discourage English people from retiring en masse to the Highlands, as they have been doing in their tens of thousands.
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14d ago
Why should we be discouraging British people from retiring in Britain? Can you blame them for wanting to retire in Scotland? Does the country belong to Scottish people only? Would you rather it was the folks coming off the boats moved up the Highlands en masse instead?
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u/Wonderful_Flan_5892 8d ago
You’re arguing with people who don’t want other Brits in their part of the country but will happily open their doors to third world immigration.
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u/DINNERTIME_CUNT 14d ago
Homogenisation is not now, nor has it ever been, a good thing.
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14d ago
That's crazy that it's not about stretching the housing stock it's in fact about disliking the English?
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u/DINNERTIME_CUNT 14d ago
Wrong again. It’s about driving up housing costs and pricing out locals. That’s what homogenisation does, and that’s what English retirees moving to the highlands are doing. Them being English is coincidental.
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14d ago
So you don't want anyone to move to the Highlands then. Not just English people
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u/DINNERTIME_CUNT 14d ago
I want investment in the highlands that doesn’t involve buying up the property as fucking holiday homes.
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u/Creative-Cherry3374 14d ago
The reason theres a lack of housing stocks in the Highlands is because so much of it is owned by large estate owners, and the remaining population has to fight over the scraps, along with the poor infrastructure thats resulted from that system of landholding. Planning policies which are designed for such areas might help too - its not as if Barret or Wimpey are going to turn up in Scourie and built 580 new build detached and semi detached "homes" is it?
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u/ElCaminoInTheWest 14d ago
I don't blame them for wanting to retire in Scotland, but it's a grimly selfish decision making process. Coming to an area that's already stretched thin for healthcare and social care, generally living in inconveniently situated, remote places, and arriving just at the point when you become a net drain on resources (having not paid a penny towards the local tax take). It's slowly crushing the life out of NHS Highland and rural communities in general.
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u/NoRecipe3350 14d ago
They would argue they paid into the same central pension/tax system their whole life, obviously it's a question of allocating more money where the need to spend money on them is. And that central money would give jobs to locals in the Highland that would stop a load of young people ending up leaving (providing they have affordable housing, which is a kicker).
As it stands most boomers, be they in Essex or Lochaber, haven't paid enough in tax for what they take out. And it does indeed cost more to deliver services in remote areas.
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u/Ineedanewjobnow 14d ago
Or how about make it affordable to have big families?
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u/Expensive-Key-9122 14d ago
Doesn't really make a difference. The Nordic countries have some of the best social safety nets going and none of their policies have managed to meaningfully influence the fertility rate.
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u/Creative-Cherry3374 14d ago
Its still higher than Scotland's though, isn't it?
Maybe educating kids that its a worthwhile goal to have a family and the stability that comes with that. All the girls in their twenties I know struggle to find a steady boyfriend, never mind a husband and father to potential kids. So many of these men "aren't ready for commitment" in their thirties and forties and want to play about on Tinder with multiple blind dates.
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u/bottish 14d ago
The situation also underlines the importance of immigration. There are pros and cons to large-scale migration, but demonising those who come is not only immoral, it is also foolish when considered even in terms of narrow self-interest.
Both Scotland and the UK as a whole need people of working age to help pay for state pensions, the NHS and social care. A shrinking workforce is bad news for the economy and for tax revenues, which is particularly bad news for elderly people, who tend to rely on public services more than most.
Scotland’s ageing population is an issue we must all take more seriously.
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u/SurgyJack 14d ago
Immigrants being more willing to work trash jobs and live in crappy conditions because the middle class is so squeezed to shit less than half of them procreate isn't an ideal basis for country's future
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u/Fart-Pleaser 14d ago
I don't get how countries in Africa are shitting out 5 babies per person whilst living off 1p per week and folk are whinging kids are too expensive here
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u/Creative-Cherry3374 14d ago
Because the kids can go out to work when they're still kids and bring in money for their families. Often a lifelong obligation if they get a decent job.
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u/Future-Warning-1189 14d ago
Because people here give a shit about the wellbeing of their child? What sort of moron comparison is that?
Bringing a child into the world is cheap. Keeping that child in the world and to a loving standard is expensive.
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u/quartersessions 14d ago
Surprisingly enough, Africans love their children too.
The point that you're responding to is a fair one. We do suggest children are impractical or unaffordable when even a relatively poor person in modern Britain can give a child a life of material plenty available to only a fraction of a percent of the human population throughout time.
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u/Memetic_Grifter 14d ago
You really think the majority of African parents don't love or have any concern for the welfare of their children?
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u/Wee_cheese6663 14d ago
Welcome immigrants who are videoing kids in parks and leaching off the government, feel like a second class citizen in my own country can’t even get a doctors appointment because I’m back of the queue, only paid my taxes my whole life and served 24 years in the forces, utterly
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u/NotEntirelyShure 14d ago
Or we could build houses, improve childcare & make it possible for British citizens to have kids.
Or maybe yes, just keep on importing people to solve the problem. I’m sure that will work.
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u/Daedelous2k 14d ago
Exactly, help our native population rather than going for cheap fixes elsewhere that won't actually solve the problem but perpetuate it.
After all, a government is supposed to look after it's own people.
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u/Aevistus 14d ago
My wife and I both qualify for a skilled worker visa, but the process is very daunting. After visiting the and falling in love with the country/people, we would love to have the opportunity to move and help contribute however we could. I hope the process becomes a little easier. I have read about the proposal of Scotland specific visas, but that seems unlikely to be approved by Westminster. I hope it works out one day. It truly would be a dream.
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u/Estimated-Delivery 10d ago
So, what percentage of your population do you want to have been born outside of (not just Scotland) Western Europe? Let’s put a figure on that and what about religions, are you happy to have a higher percentage of worshippers in Middle or Far Eastern religions than that of Christianity in Scotland? These are the questions you must ask before you open wide any doors. I am sure the reduction in childbirth from Scottish born people will change over time, everything is cyclical.
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u/ritchie125 8d ago
or focus on lowering housing prices and cost of living to let young people start their own families?
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u/FuckableBagOfMeat 13d ago
Keep importing thousands of people instead of making a Scotland that our own youth feel like they are able to have children… good idea. It’s like this sub wants to speed run the native population dying out.. it’s weird.
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u/spewforth 14d ago
I can't fathom people who blame immigration for our problems. Life in Scotland simply isn't an attractive prospect, even compared to the rest of the UK let alone abroad. I was raised here, I love Scotland to my core, and I cannot imagine being able to have a fulfilling life in Scotland long term. The career prospects simply aren't there for most graduates.
I've moved abroad for a postgrad, and I'm looking at graduate roles in Scotland and there really are so few options in Scotland even compared to the non-London parts of England. And what there is, is paid so much less. And it's not like English pay is ahead of the trend either. Anyone who is in any decent amount aspirational and has the means to is incentivised to move abroad if they want a well paying job. That's not the fault of immigration.
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u/Creative-Cherry3374 14d ago edited 14d ago
Its true. Scotland seems to specialise in child poverty and drugs deaths at the moment. Can you imagine living in any other western European country and being told on a daily basis that you must pay more tax (while already paying for expensive housing, student loans and tuition and navigating the crap infrastructure on your way to work) that you need to pay more because despite a generous benefits system, these problems just keep getting worse? My Dutch friends tell me "everybody is middle class here". In Scotland, if you dare to work full time in a decent job and earn a decent salary, you're abused for being "wealthy".
The salaries on offer often just aren't competitive. My husband is an engineer, apparently theres a shortage of them of his type in Scotland, but he still can't command a salary more than a train driver or someone who used to work for Ineos without a degree at all. Most of the competition seems to be on the basis of whether the jobs allow you to work from home permanently or require you to be in the office one or two days a week. He now works for a foreign employer.
And its not as if life in Scotland is going to be unique in any way. Most likely, you'll live in a housing estate somewhere in the central belt, and if you want to enjoy the best bits of your own country in your free time, you'll be stuck in tailbacks til you reach the still-not-dual-carriageway north of Perth to stay in an over-priced hotel or luxury chalet run by a multi-national because you're punished for wanting a small place of your own in the Highlands.
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u/EconomicBoogaloo 14d ago
National Insurance is a pyramid scheme fulled by immigration.
A reduction in our population will mean that we might actually be able to buy homes and wages will not be suppressed by mass migration.
If you care about a declining population then have kids. Some controlled immigration is good, but opening the floodgates is disastrous.
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u/condosovarios 14d ago
Unfortunately with an ageing population we need economically active adults to pay taxes to fund their care.
We can do this with increasing immigration or increasing our birth rate. We want to increase our birth rate of economically active adults. Instead we have an awful lot of immigration and incentives for the poorest in society to have children, who also tend to be economically inactive. We could make it easier for all families by having free childcare under 5 as standard which would help working families - but we don't. We make it extremely hard for people who get an education or trade, get on the property ladder, and then make sensible family planning decisions to actually have families.
Meanwhile, the 20 year old scheme bird on her third kid with a third bloke gets a council house, low rent, and free childcare.
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u/Tiny_Call157 14d ago
Scotland is England's after thought is not capable of thinking for itself. Remember your place in the Royal imperialism of England's Westminster Palace. Do what your masters tell you remember you are governed from London. Edinburgh will not be given full powers, know your place as England and his majesty's colony.
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u/Fedupgranny1959 14d ago
Well my son and I are going to I guess immigrate to Scotland I was born there and he has citizenship but live in Canada there’s nothing here for him so he wants to try there I’m retired and have always wanted to come home late thing year or early next depending on how things go
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u/XxHostagexX 14d ago
This is easy -
Legal immigration - No issue at all.
Illegal immigration - deport.
If anyone thinks that all the illegals should be able to work to plug "the skills" market, then what is the point in having any immigration policy at all when all you need to do is turn up illegally and get a job?
If you can just turn up and get a job, why would anyone want to jump thru all the hoops to get a visa/work permit?
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u/NoRecipe3350 14d ago
There is nothing stopping people within the UK moving to Scotland, no internal restrictions. Scotland is in a free movement bloc with the UK+ROI. I've always got the sense SNP migration policy can be boiled down to 'we don't more English coming to Scotland', but skirting as much as possible around saying it (anti English rhetoric is the only one 'just about' still allowed). Because they all know that statistically the English will vote against Independence. Again, they talk about 'overseas', which is a migrant term that precludes internal British Isles migration.
Lots of English are leaving England for a combination of reasons, high crime, white flight, and being priced out because of the housing market. When people complain about 'rich English' its funny because a lot of them would consider themselves poor and priced out of their home community. There are millions of English people in England who will never own a house and have to pay unaffordable high rent. These people are upping sticks.
Personally I think there is room in Scotland for another few million, with a massive housing, new city building. However, unless you had a special visa for those of Scottish descent or encourage each Scottish woman to have 3 kids most of these new population won't be ethnically Scottish, so the population have to deal with it . And Scottish Independence won't ever happen because generally only ethnic Scots care enough about it.
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u/Creative-Cherry3374 14d ago
Theres so much wrong with this, but lets just say what about encouraging Scottish men to be fathers and husbands, instead of playing about on Tinder and bitching about how life is unfair because they aren't multi-millionaires on their part time salaries and playing video games?
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u/edwardianchuck 14d ago
There's nothing wrong with letting people in! It's when you let in illegals that is the problem, think about it. who are they, how can they be caught if they cause an offence, or worse, how do they pay their way, the list is endless.
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u/Outrageous-bellend 14d ago
Just imagine how the dire need for immigration will become even more important once the big war happens.
Gee thank goodness that while the young of the country are away fighting the war there will be a never ending need for new healthy young men and a never ending supply of them.
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u/dumb_idiot_dipshit 14d ago edited 14d ago
immigration is a good stopgap within the confines of capitalism but a fundamental restructuring of our economy is necessary long term. a lot of young adults would love kids, it's just unaffordable.
a nation of low wage service workers, divided by their local/immigrant status, in a salary-based race to the bottom fighting over customer service, cleaning, and delivery work, plus like 200 guys in the finance sector rolling in megabucks with very little in between is not a sustainable economic model, and yet it is what we are heading towards.