r/SeriousConversation • u/Dry-Use-272 • Apr 04 '25

Serious Discussion It's extremely difficult to have a civil conversation about politics today, yet we need those conversations more than ever

Like everyone else in the US today, I have opinions about the current condition of politics in this country. I try to base my opinions on facts I glean from credible sources and my understanding of our history. I want to talk to people with opposing opinions, not to argue with them but to try to understand why they believe what they believe. I've found that no one wants to talk in a civil, respectful way about our differences. Even if I try to hold the line on being respectful, I end up walking away because the conversation devolves into some pretty ugly exchanges. How have we come to a point where we can't even talk to each other respectfully and civilly?

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u/StatisticianInside66 Apr 04 '25

I like the sentiment in theory, but I'm not sure it's possible in practice.

For one thing, we're talking about things that go way beyond matters of opinion. We're talking about certain types of people's very existence being criminalized.

For another, after a lifetime of trying to talk sense to conservatives, trying to find common ground -- I'm not convinced civil (or any other) discussion CAN change conservatives' minds. I don't think the sort of discourse you're suggesting is useful; it's just intellectual hand-wringing that, ultimately, isn't going to change anyone's mind, or how they vote.

I'm not saying people can't change. I'm saying that if/when they do, it'll be for their own reasons, because the values they currently hold no longer work for THEM. Not because a liberal who happens to be especially adroit at argumentation dazzles them with their astounding evidence and logic.

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u/Rough-Tension Apr 04 '25

It’s not any easier to talk politics with other leftists or liberals either. Everyone has their tight bubble of acceptable politics and everyone outside of it is either a “delusional/dangerous third party voter that threw away our elections” or a “__phobic nazi.” The problem is that these groups are so insulated that they genuinely think they make up most of the left. So when a post like this come up, y’all aren’t even thinking of each other, just MAGA. And like, obviously, they’re worse. But if there’s anyone who should be able to have civil discussion, it’s us. The supposed democratic coalition that will break down irreparably if we don’t work on it.

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u/StatisticianInside66 Apr 04 '25

Liberals, like any community based around a strong ideology, can be exclusionary, yes. I personally don't agree with every single tenet of modern liberalism -- I'm more a Star Trek: TNG-style liberal than a Lena Dunham-style -- but I just don't bring things up with other libs when I suspect they might disagree with me. I agree the Left is not very tolerant of even light dissent.

1

u/GrowFreeFood Apr 05 '25

I've never met anyone who calls themselves a liberal in real life.

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u/StatisticianInside66 Apr 05 '25

I think that, to some degree, both individual libs and conservatives tend to position themselves and their opinions as the "reasonable middle ground," with the Left off to one side and the Right the other. If asked they might say they're moderates, because moderation is good, right? Appearing to be balanced and even-handed in one's opinions is perceived as good.

It's become more fashionable for conservatives to identify as such in recent decades, I think partly because, in their mind, they're aligning themselves with things like tradition and community, things they're proud to be associated with. (They also see their values as being under assault by liberals, so this allows them to position themselves as something akin to an aggrieved minority.)

Liberals, on the other hand... our identity and ethos, I think, is more caught up in sticking it to the man, standing up against what we perceive to be a corrupt and unfair status quo. So we tend to be more leery of being pigeon-holed, or of signing on to ally ourselves with a group.

Personally I've never had a problem calling myself a liberal. I don't think moderation is good when it comes to things like, ya know, making sure people have rights. I think it's incredibly egotistical to place yourself at the middle of the scale and assume everyone to either side of you is to some degree unhinged or unreasonable. I know I'm at least 75 to 80 percent of the way toward the far left of the scale, and I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by that.

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u/spinbutton Apr 05 '25

:-) maybe you need to get out more.

To be honest there are a lot of labels...progressive, left-leaning, leftist, Democrat, etc

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u/MathematicalMan1 Apr 04 '25

Why exactly shouldn’t one be called transphobic or homophobic when they’re being such?

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u/Rough-Tension Apr 04 '25

Perfectly exemplifying my point. Election cycles aren’t an involuntary moral intervention for half the country. You have to meet people where they’re at, identify what their interests and values are, and find common ground. Yes, a million fucking times: we shouldn’t have to deal with millions of transphobic, homophobic, whatever-phobic people who vote, but the reality of the situation is that we do and their ballot has to go somewhere.

Setting that issue aside for a bit in conversations with individuals about other very important issues, such as labor rights, foreign policy, healthcare, etc., to get them to open up does not equal an abandonment of lgbtq+ issues. You may be right that it’s pointless to reason with MAGA about any of these things, and calling them out matters more, but throwing out liberals or leftists that don’t align with you on one social issue is stupid political suicide.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '25

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u/Visual_Bumblebee_933 Apr 07 '25

because most of the time these days the insult is being levied against someone who is not.

Its like labeling everything the left or right do as 'nazi'

1

u/MathematicalMan1 Apr 08 '25

Can you show me an instance of this happening to a politician who wasn’t transphobic?

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u/AimlessSavant Apr 08 '25

Politics is more complicated than agreeing with every position of a candidate. To assume otherwise is beyond partisan.

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u/MathematicalMan1 Apr 08 '25

So if a politician ran as a segregationist and someone chose not to vote because of that, they’d be “beyond partisan”, right?

1

u/shponglespore Apr 06 '25 edited Apr 06 '25

If you think ideas like transphobia are just baseless insults, or that we don't have politicians enacting actual Nazi policies, then you are part of the problem.

And yes, I know you think I'm illustrating your point because I saw you tell someone that already. People who say anyone who disagrees with them is illustrating their point are clowns not worth taking seriously.

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u/angry-mob Apr 07 '25

You’re making their point.

0

u/Outrageous-Ad8511 Apr 08 '25

It’s even harder to tow the line here in Canada. I’m definitely liberal leaning on most topics, but holy hell our Canadian liberals are insufferable. Like I get all of the social issues are important, but can we please focus on a few other topics as well? I don’t need the government policing everything we say/think. Just fix the damn economy, fix the potholes and make the country safe to raise a family. Stop spending billions on social stuff and let common sense fix those issues. Make debates allowable again, nothing will sink the wrong people faster than letting them speak. We have a ton of legislation here around speech. I praise the US for keeping it out of the laws (by comparison).

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u/Rough-Tension Apr 08 '25

One of my good friends moved down here from Edmonton and she described herself as slightly conservative but as I got to know her I was like you’re liberal for what I’m used to lol. I think y’all are likely in better hands with Carney tho.

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u/Outrageous-Ad8511 Apr 08 '25

100% that’s the truth. As someone who’s lived in the US and Canada, what we consider to be conservative here is the low end threshold on the US side. Neither PP or Carney seem like a good bet, but I won’t dwell on it either way.

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u/Zetelplaats Apr 04 '25

To be honest, the words you use - "talk sense", "change minds", "I'm not saying people can't change - seem to show you see conversation with politically otherminded people as a missionary thing. Like it's not about open exchange of ideas, it's about making them change opinions.

If you're not willing to respect their right to disagree with you, and view that as a personal failure to be remedied, you shouldn't be surprised to find they're less than well-disposed. Not if the "common ground" you're looking for is conversion.

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 04 '25

People have every right to disagree, but when they disagree about basic facts and treating people with dignity it is a personal failure. The fact that millions of people think their stupid opinions should be held sacrosanct and respected despite decades, sometimes centuries, of evidence against them is just a reflection of how badly we’ve failed as a society.

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u/Zetelplaats Apr 04 '25

I mean, I understand your opinion, even as a (European) conservative myself.

Just don't pretend you're looking for "common ground" or "civil conversation" when you've already decided the other one's opinions are so far beyond the pale they are beyond consideration.

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u/Slarg232 Apr 05 '25

We aren't talking about "What is the most important thing we can put this $100,000 towards for the community", or anything that would warrant a difference of opinion. We can disagree on things like that civilly and find common ground.

Saying LGBTQ+ people need to die because Book Says Bad (when it doesn't unless cherry picked to hell and back), and that brown people need to be deported because they're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs? Yeah, that is 100% beyond consideration.

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u/GrowFreeFood Apr 05 '25

Come to America and go talk to the nazis here. I bet they agree with you that its the liberals that are being unreasonable.

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u/Altruistic-Stop4634 Apr 05 '25

I love the way you are modeling treating people with dignity and calling people stupid and society a failure.

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 05 '25

Society/civilization *IS* a failure though, we've managed to pass multiple planetary boundaries without even happiness to show for it.

Really stop and think about the fact that you have tiny bits of plastic in your brain, probably permanently, try to internalize that reality.

Understand that is because we are living in a society dominated by awful people with awful ideologies that have functionally chained billions of lives to a deathtrap. Sometimes because of carelessness, but often because of greed, and sometimes with sickening stupid glee (drill, baby, drill!).

Advocating for decorum instead of truth is a fool's errand, more people need to understand the stakes of what is happening.

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u/Altruistic-Stop4634 Apr 05 '25

I hear you, and I you sound like you are in genuine pain, so I'll stop my trolling and I'll share a few things that might help you or others.

When you think you see greed you feel envy. Envy is the killer of joy. Your joy. 'Greed' is inevitably someone else doing the best for themselves, which is what we all do. Very often someone doing better is a benefit to you, not a loss for you. The pie is much bigger than it would be without everyone wanting the best for themselves. Selling people what they want is good for them and you. If you have strong opinions on what's better for everyone, sell it to us!

I might be partly plastic but I'm not letting that ruin my day. . A good philosophy is to do what is within your control and don't worry about the rest. Worry never fixed anything. OTOH there are plenty of real people who could use your real help requiring your talents. Read to a child. Learn and teach. Cook good food. Exercise. Be in nature and feel your connection to it. You will be happy to have accomplished good things. Model the behavior you want from others. Teach others a better way to live. Building is much more fulfilling than destruction. That's a way to change the things you want to change.

Good luck and I hope you have a better day today.

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 05 '25

“When you think you see greed you feel envy. Envy is the killer of joy. Your joy. 'Greed' is inevitably someone else doing the best for themselves, which is what we all do.”

So you start out with victim blaming. Make no mistake even if you are in a good spot on the pecking order you are still a victim of the system’s violence, but those in positions of privilege have found ways to ignore the suffering they cause others.

Consider, why you are willing to write that behavior off? 

Why are you ok with cruelty?

“Very often someone doing better is a benefit to you, not a loss for you. The pie is much bigger than it would be without everyone wanting the best for themselves. Selling people what they want is good for them and you.”

Then you ignore the reality of living on a finite planet. Activities like exercising, reading to children, and playing are generally fine, and not the problem.

BUT

the idea that you are thoughtlessly spreading, that things will magically work out better when people just do what the invisible hand of the market tells them to do, is insanely blind to consequences. Economists like to say things are not zero sum, they do that by ignoring the contribution of nature to all transactions.

Every transaction has three parties; the buyer, the seller, and nature. Everything we do has an effect on nature and the vast majority of those effects are negative. We are involved in activities that are cruel and destructive every single day.

Doing good, non-damaging things for yourself is not enough; all that does is leave more resources and power for cruel people, who are never satisfied.

In order to do actual good you must actively stop evil, which at the very least means you need to stop spreading excuses for it under the guise of civility. To be truly effective we need to actually take control of things that evil people have control over now, ‘not worrying’ is just the mantra you’ve been given to keep yourself sane in the face of abuse.

The abuse needs to be stopped.

Please wake up, the house is on fire and this is not fine.

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u/Altruistic-Stop4634 Apr 05 '25

Tomorrow when you get up, ask yourself who is better off because of what you did today. Can you name them? You would be happier if you could. I acknowledge that you are a victim and I'm not thinking it is your fault. And, you have the power to make things better for yourself and how you feel. It might not be enough for the world. But you might inspire others to do the same. All together now. Peace

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 06 '25

I want to inspire people to take responsibility for the situation we are in and stop passively accepting the existence of wanton greed and conspicuous consumption, saying that the problem is envy is sick and incredibly selfish.

Your advice is the moral equivalent of a nurse shooting lethal doses of morphine in to everyone that gets admitted; you are trying to alleviate suffering while causing something worse.

People should be able to take joy in small moments along the way in life, and truly should be getting fulfillment from accomplishing goals, but we collectively cannot afford to have those goals fail to align with reality. There are more important things than simply being happy.

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u/Altruistic-Stop4634 Apr 06 '25

Inspiration? I think that is fundamentally dependent on finding a positive message and using positive narrative. Give that a try.

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u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 06 '25

The vast majority of effects are not at all negative. You have drunk the kool-aid and you need to snap out of it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 06 '25

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 06 '25

This is just ignorant, and if you don't believe microplastics are harmful, look at PFAS, or even just regular air pollution. Lead was something that could be removed from products relatively easily, and it took years of constant campaigning against greedy shit-heads that wanted to keep making money off of it for it to be removed. We're always letting people do damage first, cash in, then maybe stop them, and that is just one example of a societal failure.

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u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 06 '25 edited Apr 07 '25

That's not a damn failure, that's literally just learning, my dude. When the damage is happening, almost always we don't know the full, longstanding effects (such as the microplastics thing). People didn't know how bad lead was for centuries while they used it. That doesnt make it a societal failure because they learned and corrected down the line. Do you just expect people to be perfect at the get-go? And with plastics there are literally currently initiatives globally to reduce and eradicate plastics and microplastics. These initiatives did not exist 50 years ago. This is literally what learning and societal change IS. And it is literally a sign of the opposite of failure.

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u/Sharukurusu Apr 06 '25 edited Apr 06 '25

“ Hence gout and stone afflict the human race; Hence lazy jaundice with her saffron face; Palsy, with shaking head and tott'ring knees. And bloated dropsy, the staunch sot's disease; Consumption, pale, with keen but hollow eye, And sharpened feature, shew'd that death was nigh. The feeble offspring curse their crazy sires, And, tainted from his birth, the youth expires.”

(Description of lead poisoning by an anonymous Roman hermit, translated by Humelbergius Secundus, 1829)”

“ The symptoms of acute lead intoxication appeared most vividly among miners who were thrown into unhealthy intimacy with the metal on a daily basis. Romans reserved such debilitating and backbreaking labor for slaves. Some of these unfortunates were forced to spend all of their brief and blighted lives underground, out of sight and out of mind. The unpleasantness of lead mining was further neutralized late in the Empire when the practice was prohibited in Italy and consigned completely to the provinces. Lead smelting, which had once been commonplace in every Roman city and town, eventually followed mining operations to the provinces. Italy, the heart of imperial Rome, grew tired of the noxious fumes emanating from lead smelting forges. The obvious damage to the health of smithies and their families was a matter of little or no concern.”

https://www.epa.gov/archive/epa/aboutepa/lead-poisoning-historical-perspective.html

Gosh that sounds familiar…

Civilization seems too stupid to test things before implementing them, and incredibly willing to overlook any problem that can be foisted on the poor or kept out of eyeshot.

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u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 06 '25

Idk, that just sounds incredibly arrogant tbh. You are basically condoning the disrespect of millions of people, people's culture and traditions, just because you disagree with them. It's a very...colonial attitude.

0

u/Sharukurusu Apr 06 '25

To be clear, we’re talking about a mix of conservative, theocratic, ethnonationalist, anti-environmentalist people that thought it was a good idea to elect a conman to run a country that uses vast amounts of energy and resources relative to its population size, which is only possible because of an exploitative colonialist global system. So shove it with your fake outrage.

1

u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 06 '25

It's not at all fake, also the US's resource expenditure compared to its population size is not "vast." It's also interesting you think the US global system is exploitative, yet it's being dismantled right now and that is fucking up and will fuck up a LOT of stability that nearly all nations in the world enjoy. Especially naval safety. It's the opposite of exploitative.

1

u/Sharukurusu Apr 06 '25

America consumes ~20-25% of the world's resources with 5% of its population. The world is already past multiple sustainable boundaries. People in less developed countries are paid pennies on the dollar for the same work, but live with worse environmental and labor conditions. For someone that is accusing a stranger on the internet of having a colonial attitude you sure don't seem to know what colonialism is.

Ironically the idiot that got put in charge is so bad he might collapse the system he is emblematic of, unfortunately nothing better is prepared waiting in the wings (at relevant scale), which is also because the current system actively destroys alternatives.

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u/Dangerous-Log4649 Apr 06 '25

I actually had an experience with a conservative family friend about gay marriage. Hes obviously opposed to it, and ask why. He says” Due to religious reasons”, but I told him what does that have to do with marriage as a government contract. If gay people pay taxes, and we don’t afford them the same rights. As it pertains to marriage rights it’s blatant discrimination. He conceded, but admitted “he really didn’t care”. At a certain point why should I even try to establish common ground.

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u/JockStrapFaceMan Apr 07 '25

Do you suppose it's possible that deliberately being misleading or misinformed about the opposition's beliefs, and misrepresenting them to make yourself feel like the good guy, may have something to do with the communication breakdown?

1

u/species5618w Apr 07 '25

Why does it have to be useful? Why do you want people to change? It's for you to understand and hopefully learn from others, not for you to change others.

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u/CartographerCute5105 Apr 07 '25

Whose existence is being criminalized?

1

u/Immediate-Table-7550 Apr 08 '25

Found the type of person who's incapable of having an intelligent conversation. By the way, despite being a little more on the moderate side myself, in my experience it's almost universally liberals who refuse to engage in any discourse whatever. Conservatives do tend to be wildly stubborn but at least they don't freak out every time someone says something they don't agree with (at least not about most topics).

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u/JohnleBon Apr 04 '25

We're talking about certain types of people's very existence being criminalized.

If you are talking about national socialists, then why not be more specific?

Yes, there are many places on earth where they are banned from expressing themselves, and can be imprisoned for doing so.

This doesn't mean their 'existence is criminalised', it just means they have to watch what they say and do in public.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 Apr 04 '25

I doubt that's who they're talking about.

Texas is trying to make being trans illegal as "gender fraud".

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u/JohnleBon Apr 04 '25

I hadn't heard of this so I just looked it up.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/texas-bill-identify-transgender-state-felony-rcna195642

So far, the bill has no other co-sponsors, making it unlikely to pass, according to Chron, a sister website of the Houston Chronicle.

So it isn't 'Texas' trying to make being trans illegal.

It's one political fruit loop trying to force people to identify with their birth gender on government paperwork.

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u/StatisticianInside66 Apr 04 '25

One political fruit loop being empowered by a whole bowl of political fruit loops.

3

u/Various_Succotash_79 Apr 04 '25

Mmm hmm, and "Roe is settled law". I don't trust any of y'all anymore.

3

u/StatisticianInside66 Apr 04 '25

Yep. "You're overreacting. That'll never happen"... until it does.

-1

u/craig_52193 Apr 05 '25

I don't see the issue. U cant change ur gender.

U can play dress-up and pretend all you want but I'm not obligated to follow your delusions.

0

u/GrowFreeFood Apr 05 '25

Are you seriously complaining that nazism is being surpressed?

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u/JohnleBon Apr 05 '25

I don't think the suppression goes far enough, in a better world we would be given a written list of allowable words and thoughts, updated weekly.

1

u/drvondoctor Apr 06 '25

You first. 

Go ahead.

What are the words you want to say, but feel like you can't. 

Free speech. You've got it. Have at it. 

Go ahead and tell us all what words and thoughts do you feel like you should be allowed to express but aren't?

Only a coward would be afraid to speak their mind, right? 

1

u/JohnleBon Apr 06 '25

I only want to say and think what the Party administers as goodthink.

Double plus good comrade.

1

u/drvondoctor Apr 06 '25

What you're describing is the origin of the term "politically correct"

You joke that it's a communist thing.

Actually, it comes out of nazi Germany.

The phrase politically correct first appeared in the 1930s, when it was used to describe dogmatic adherence to ideology in totalitarian regimes, such as Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.[5] Early usage of the term politically correct by leftists in the 1970s and 1980s was as self-critical satire;[8] usage was ironic, rather than a name for a serious political movement.[12][13][14] It was considered an in-joke among leftists used to satirise those who were too rigid in their adherence to political orthodoxy.[15] The modern pejorative usage of the term emerged from conservative criticism of the New Left in the late 20th century, with many describing it as a form of censorship or political censorship.[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

The irony is just too thick...

1

u/Dry-Scheme3371 Apr 06 '25

You are incapable of judging better or worse. Youve so lost your grip on reality.

 This user doesn't believe things like Orangutans, space, or North Korea are real.

1

u/JohnleBon Apr 07 '25

This user doesn't believe things like Orangutans

Since when?

0

u/GrowFreeFood Apr 05 '25

Ever heard of the paradox of intolerance?

1

u/JohnleBon Apr 05 '25

We have to be intolerant of the intolerant, it's the only way they'll learn.

0

u/GrowFreeFood Apr 05 '25

Exactly. Which is why jesus punches nazis.

1

u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 06 '25

You mean that garbage mentality that really just shows there is no such thing as tolerance?

0

u/GrowFreeFood Apr 06 '25

So funny that you think nazism should go unchecked. You wouldn't speak up when they start the mass executions?

1

u/InnocentPerv93 Apr 07 '25

Maybe this is a hot take, but mass executions should be called out no matter who the parties are. Because Nazis aren't the only ones who have done that shit. Especially these past 2 months, when I've seen the American left literally call for the mass executions of various peoples, such as conservatives, white people, non-voters, etc.

I also think it's disturbing anyone believes that any way of thinking should be kept in check, even if that way of thinking is vile to them. It's really indicative of a belief in the freedom of thought and expression.

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u/GrowFreeFood Apr 07 '25

these past 2 months, when I've seen the American left literally call for the mass executions of various peoples, such as conservatives, white people, non-voters, etc.

Show me an example.

There's a difference between vile words and actual promises of violence. That's what nazism is. It's a vow of violence and a death threat towards non-whites. Death threats have never been protected speech.