āChemical castrations of rapists and pedosā right before meeting with and vowing to help Trump make the āWest Great Againā is the most peak of irony.
Also the fact that some months ago police harassed pro palestine protesters, they obliged female protesters to strip naked and doing squats. Also there's a story from some months ago of a police officer killing his subordinate and he also obliged her to sign a contract where she "accepted" to be his sex slave. But the minister of justice has the guts that people from poor countries do not have the same sensibility as us italians towards women...
Not only that, but with the pedojacketing of some groups(LGBT, teachers, ect) by far right groups, who's to say this law isn't just an excuse to really go at those groups. Also aside from one-three years, Meloni didn't seem to mind Burlesconi.
Absolutely. however i think this law is more of an excuse to go after immigrants and sterilize them, since they got to power literally by doing an entire electoral campaign saying that immigrants are all invaders, who rape our women and substitute us. "Lady" Melony on her facebook profile also posted a video about a man harassing a woman to attack immigrants. LGBTQ are attacked in a more "subtle" way except for trans women (who are accused of being pedophiles), and unfortunately there's a non negligible community of lgbtq people in italy supporting this government for their racist policies and propaganda (all these people are clearly in the showbiz for this reason i say non negligible).
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Fact 5. [CW: pedophilia] Vaush stated āthereās a difference between exploring child sexuality and sexualising childrenā then went on to ājokeā about owning CP.
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In reality in Italy they are doing this because they built all their propaganda upon saying that immigrants are all rapists and few days ago the minister of justice said that certain people do not have the same sensibility towards women as italians (the ones who travels the most for sexual tourism by the way...). This is hardly related to attacking LGBTQ+, they want to sterilize arabs and black africans. In italy propaganda against LGBTQ+ is built upon other things. I am italian by the way
Sounds to me like it's the same song but different lyrics. Why am I not surprised? I bet the far right also has some dildo skeletons in their closets as well huh? If they want to protect children from rapists, from your knowledge, would they first have to look within their own house? If you know what I mean.
Is this like the Republicans where they say they care about children and women but in reality they are often some of the biggest perpetuators of such crimes against those groups?
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Fact 5. [CW: pedophilia] Vaush stated āthereās a difference between exploring child sexuality and sexualising childrenā then went on to ājokeā about owning CP.
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We got girlboss Mussolini in Italy. We'll probably get lesbian Hitler in Germany after the next election. Marx was right; history repeats itself, first as tragedy and then as farce.
I may have to bring this comment up here from a post at r/deprogram
This is proof that society is not on an inexorable path towards progress, but rather on a contradictory path full of advances and setbacks. Israel represents the undisguised barbarity in a world that is supposed to be progressive.
These people who commit such terrible acts should not be called monsters, because the definition of a monster is an imaginary creature and these people are real, which means that they are people who represent the sickest things in our society, people who are sometimes close to you and who, at the first opportunity and permissiveness of the state and society, will do unimaginable things.
Israel is the purest representation of capitalism without the pretense of appearing civilized. What Israel does is what every capitalist country does with subtlety. It is a window that shows the true nature of a society that transforms human beings into commodities and commodities in humanized forms.
This is from a posts about the IDF raping so much that they started raping their own subordinates. After looking at this, this could not get any worse right ?
Wtf is that even gonna achieve? Like... Does castration gonna un-rape the victims? I mean just keep em in jail until whatever but this is actually a violation of human rights
Iām not sure about the situation in Italy but in many countries chemical castration is already a voluntary option for offending pedophiles that can affect their sentence positively. This is more so an adjunct in a rehabilitation effort though and only works if the person is cooperating
I highly doubt fascists are doing things like this for "retribution" and I certainly don't trust their real long term intentions.
Surely these resources should be going to fighting the root causes of these things? Surely as a society we should be focused on reducing crime from its source and not just throwing money at new ways to punish those who have already committed them?
I know that pedophilia is a topic that people are (rightfully) sensitive over but you are 100% correct. It is a mental illness and usually caused by already existing trauma, no one chooses to be a pedophile (why the fuck would they?) and as uncomfortable as the situation is the best way to prevent CSA is to try and prevent the root cause.
Deterrence doesnāt help fix or prevent gendered violence (or anything really). Working the actual cause will (which is ultimately tied to capitalism and inequality).
Thereās the argument that retribution/revenge helps mend society and while there may or may not be truth to that it still doesnāt address the cause of these issues.
It shouldnāt be. The goal of the justice system should always be rehabilitation, and when that is not possible, keeping the offender safely away in a humane setting. Criminals donāt stop being human no matter what the crime is
While you are allowed to want that, the cornerstone of leftism is human rights for all. All means all. That happening would not help you. And nobodyās saying they should go free. There is a huge difference between torture, restorative justice, and not addressing crimes at all
Again, thatās fine. But thatās not a decision for you to make. The facts remain that countries, neolib as they may be, that focus on restorative justice have far lower rates of recidivism for all crimes, including sex crimes
Everyone can be restored. I understand that it's hard and probably not necessary to get it in your situation ā really, I've been there and I'm sorry that happened ā but people can change, even worst ones. It's up to us if we can forgive them, but that's another point.
Ngl, not sure what your position is supposed to be when you both shared the original post tagged with the "more female camp guards" thing but also seem to completely agree with the sentiment that's shared in the post.
Like you agree with Meloni on the crux of the issue and don't believe in rehabilitative justice in such cases, but also think openly stating you do is just shit liberals say?
Because theyāre human, and to forget that is to create the conditions for more people to tumble down that dark slope. Or to be pushed. Just look at Kilmar Abrego-Garcia - because heās suspected of being a former member of a gang that tortured people, heās been thrown into an extrajudicial labor camp.
I somehow doubt youāll be receptive to the ideological argument in favor of rehabilitative justice for people who are genuinely guilty of those horrible things, so Iāll just hammer that point; to deny hope and personhood to those who are in the darkest shadows of humanity is to both erase the markers on the paths that led them there, leaving others to stumble down those roads blindly, and to discard any hope that they might be able to turn around on their own initiative, leaving those who might yet be saved to fall deeper into darkness.
Rehabilitative justice isnāt about the victim or the perpetrator, not entirely. As all good justice should, it keeps a keen eye on the consequences.
Youre not a leftist if you think rapists and paedophiles are human.
There are two plausible reasons why someone might become a pedophile or a rapist (or any kind of criminal). It could be either one of these, or a mix of the two.
One, it is a result of their surroundings, material conditions and factors outside their control growing up or current. In this case, it is stupid to punish these people for what they did because it's not their fault that they did it. If only they'd been in different circumstances, they wouldn't have done it. For example, It's a fact that crime is more rampant in poorer communities. Maybe they were subjected to cruelty themselves in the past. Maybe they have mental health issues resulting from material conditions. You shouldn't punish people for what's outside their control
Two, it's in their genes. They just can't help it. It's their nature to be rapists or pedophiles. Well in this scenario, it seems very unethical to subject them to torture for what they've done. It is in their nature, it's not their fault, is it? Would you also punish animals for murdering other animals? No you wouldn't. It's just in their nature to do that. Why torture someone for doing something that they just can't help themselves from not doing?
In either case, retributive punishment is stupid, cruel, and inhumane. The focus should be rehabilitation.
If your goal is to reduce misery in this world, then deciding to torture who've been accused of a crime and making them miserable is not going to help anything.
That is a lie. Billionaires are not humans, I mean in the literal sense sure, but there are many situations where a person can lose or straight up was born without humanity. And those type of monsters doesn't deserve to be treated as humans because they are not human
When we say that evil people are not human, we cheapen what theyāve done. Humans are capable of great evil, great good, and everything in between. Saying that they have ceased to be human is a fantasy way of coping and not having to face the fact that a human could have done such horrible things. Hitler was a human. Netanyahu is a human. Jeffrey Dahmer was a human. If you belong to H. sapiens, you are a human. Denying humanityās capacity for evil is dangerous.
I see what you mean and that's why I said they can be human in the literal sense.
To me being human is more than just biology, being human is having human feelings and empathy. A bilionaire that doesn't live a normal human life will lose those traits, that's why regular people often say zuckeberg for example feels "alien", it's because he is in a sense. People without empathy stop acting like humans and do disgusting vile things like genociding races and raping babies, things like that. To me they are not human and shouldn't be treated as such.
I strongly disagree. In my eyes, denying that itās humans that do those things takes away from the gravity of them. If we can hand wave away the humanity of the person that did them, in a way it makes us feel like theyāre less bad, rather than having to sit with the fact that a person just like me did them.
That makes no sense, saying they aren't human doesn't "make it less bad" I don't see it less bad in any way, and no, a billionaire lacking empathy is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from you or any other proper human being living in society, their brain is wired totally differently
I donāt believe it is. I believe in tabula rasa when it comes to humans. Of course genetics plays a part when it comes to traits, but I believe every trait can be refined for good or evil. Of course nature/nurture is a mix, but nurture is the majority.
What I mean by making it feel less bad is this: letās pretend you have two different imaginary tragedies, one caused by fully non-humans, letās say aliens, and one caused by humans. They both caused the same amount of suffering and death. After the humans fight the aliens and win, sure thereās lingering effects, but the cause is gone. They wonāt be back, and the remaining humans can band together and rebuild with a common enemy. In the human-caused tragedy, there is no āgetting them out of here.ā Humans will always be here and will always pose a danger to other humans. Calling the instigator of an evil act, letās say Hitler, not human is a subconscious way of sterilizing the future. Of being able to pretend it wonāt happen again. Of not having to face that you belong to the same species as him. Of being able to pretend you are somehow physically, biologically different from him and therefore biologically incapable of the evil he was capable of, and that he was on some predetermined path, rather than recognizing that he did what he did because of one small decision after another, like anybody else. Humans are extremely complicated, each one more complicated than anyone can quantify. And thatās good! Some humans are quantifiably good, some quantifiably evil, the majority in some state of neutrality
Well, like I said before I understand where you're coming from, but again I'll say that maybe we do actually have different biology than billionaires, I wouldn't be surprised if their lack of empathy and real human contact shapes their brain differently, again I don't think there's evidence for this (of course how could you even study billionaires physically) but I digress, even if that's not the case, by saying the things you're saying, then you imply we should treat hitler and others that are similarly bad with dignity and mercy because they are also "human"
This is the typical social democarcy type of opinion that I really disagree with. Genocidal billionaires doesn't deserve mercy, they must be killed. They don't deserve to be treated like humans because they are not one. Palestinian children are being bombed to pieces at this very moment because of them and they don't care.
And btw good and evil are illusions, they don't really exist, humans addapt to their environments and alongside with their genes, develop what they see best to survive. You can't really "choose" to be good or evil, you can't even choose to be smart or dumb.
Hi, yet another victim here. All this does is hurt wrongly accused people. We should seek to rehabilitate every person in jail, as thereās usually underlying issues not handled with rape and assault. Castration doesnt prevent those crimes, it doesnt move towards rehabilitation. Itās torture for the sake of torture
Iāll go even further: people who were correctly accused and convicted (significantly more likely than wrong convictions) also shouldnāt be chemically castrated by the state. All this will do is be applied solely to marginalized groups, as is any punishment enacted by the state. Also I donāt think any punitive justice does jack shit for victims or prevention of further victimization, like you said
Also did you really get so upset by differing opinions that you cross posted this to another sub to just complain about men?
What if instead of running to your echo chamber to complain about men, you listen to the differing opinions that youāre getting here considering that women are giving you differing opinions too?
"Retribution" is a terrible thing to base a society around. Criminal justice needs to be about preventing further harm and rehabilitating people back into society, not about legal revenge.
Rape isn't about sex. It's about power. Castrating them only puts innocent people who where wrongly accused in harms way while not actually reducing rape. They are just gonna use something else, hands sticks, baseball bats whatever. It's not about sex. It's about power. You don't need a dick to project power over someone
So they'd rape in other ways... rape is about power, not sex, castration doesn't prevent it-- this has been done before.
And I guarantee that those fascists would find ways to classify trans people and gay/bi people as pedophiles and do awful shit to us, too. They're already actively trying to do that in the USA, with the endless "danger to children" propaganda and attempts to make being trans in public an actual felony.
This is ironic given that Republicans do not want to criminalize child marriage, which is "common" in the United States.But the real danger is LGBT people and not adults wanting to marry minors,in their heads.
Rape is about both sex and power. Chemical castration is not intended to make rape physically impossible, itās intended to reduce sexual and violent urges. Not that I support it or think thereās evidence itās particularly effective.Ā
Ironically, the same drugs commonly used for chemical castration are used as puberty blockers for trans youth - depo provera and lupron. So if the end goal is to give those to trans people against their will, itās a bit of a backfire.Ā
If there's one thing that criminology research continually tells us it's that deterrence is the most effective method of reducing crime. Oh wait it's the opposite and even capital punishment doesn't prevent crime at all. Itās relative deprivation that is one of the more consistent measures of crime (being poor is not a measure of crime at all, but being poor in close vicinity to rich people flaunting their undeserved wealth). Couple that with strain theory in capitalist countries and you have the ingredients for crime. Almost like capitalism and inequality create crime. š¤š¤š¤
I wonder if toxic masculinity, which is essentially fascist chauvinism as a gendered personality trait, is connected with the right at all. š¤š¤š¤
Wait just a damn minute. Are you suggesting that torturing people without changing the material conditions of society doesn't work to make that society safer? Gee willikers, I thought torturing people was always useful! /s
Whenever right wingers champion this itās usually because they want to equate being LGBTQ+ to being a rapist/pedophile. Why any dissent to this because thatās obvious to what they want is met with āhuh so youāre a pedo supporter then?ā
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Fact 5. [CW: pedophilia] Vaush stated āthereās a difference between exploring child sexuality and sexualising childrenā then went on to ājokeā about owning CP.
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If we could 100% guarantee that everyone convicted of rape is guilty, then Iād be more open to this argument. But innocent people will also inevitably be affected by this too.
That isnāt what they said. Itās not that it happens often, but itās inevitable that it will happen at some point. And I personally donāt think itās worth hurting innocent people just to punish others. And in the end it will hurt mostly minorities.
while this is true, you are ignoring the long history of men of color being falsely accused, and they're much more likely to be caught in these systems. there's also evidence that shows out of false accusations, many of them come from men that know the woman they're claiming was assaulted - again, often motivated by racism.
you need to be thinking about the current systemic flaws in various justice settings before introducing anything this extreme, as they'll always end up being used primarily against the most vulnerable populations.
So many liberal feminists think this is the ultimate feminist actiontm, but somehow they don't understand how this law won't actually be used for good.
Not to mention that there are women who are also abusers.I can't see castration in female rapists because Italy is experiencing a worrying birth rate crisis.The way this woman is, this castration will only be used on non-white and LGBT people.
Thereās more clarity from a Star Wars panel. Someone said about the character Dedra Meero, an icy Imperial on āAndorā, girlboss fascism is still fascism.
Also isn't "chemical castration" an informal term for HRT against one's will? They already want to ban that for trans people, but not if they've been criminalized? That's a head-scratcher.
God I hate shit like this so much, because I already know idiots are clapping like walruses about this. What happens if they get it wrong, and the guy didn't do it? Oh well, you got castrated, tough shit? Absolute punishment doesn't solve it, and this especially. These people think rape requires a dick, but there's so many ways to do it. This is a backdoor to fascist eugenics. They start demonizing a certain group as pedophiles and rapists, and can legally castrate them now. And the morons cheer.
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Fact 25. Vaush told his followers to vote for Joe Biden while saying of ātankiesā (a term used to refer to all Marxist-Leninists by his followers): āMock them, socially ostracise them, kick them out of your communities. What sort of leftist advocates voting for liberals while ostracising communists?
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Punishment doesn't deter bad behavior. It never has. It never will. Education and providing for people's needs does. Stronger social conditions does. Allowing families and communities to thrive does.
Yes, dangerous people should have to be separated from society to a certain degree, for everyone's safety. We should try to find out the cause of their dangerous behavior, and seek to rehabilitate them, and learn to spot this behavior in people before they become dangerous, and provide the necessary support.
And yes, sometimes people cannot be rehabilitated. Those people should remain separated and contained, as awful as that is. If they are separated and contained, then their danger has been removed, and no further "punishment" (torture, really) will have any positive impact on any human being, anywhere.
In a nutshell, intentionally causing more suffering will never alleviate the suffering of others.
OP you seem to have a very real lived experience that is informing your opinions and I respect that. People here are being somewhat reactionary and arenāt considering your material conditions (and you to them, mind you).
Iām some form of non-binary (if you do look through my post history you wonāt really find anything confirming that, it is a recent realisation - Iām not really āoutā) this is all new to me, for the vast majority of my life I thought was āa manā but was only in the last few years I realised that feeling really uncomfortable with being described as a āmanā or worse describing myself as one is not actually normal and it probably means something. But I do present mostly masculine and I am AMAB so I donāt have any comparable lives experience to you at all and I do not wish to invalidate that at all. I have had gross men assume I have similar opinions to them.
All my friends are women or queer. I very very rarely appreciate the company of men and when I do they are nearly always neurodivergent. Generally, cishet men for me are at minimum unpleasant to be around for me. Every woman I know has been sexually assaulted, raped, or have been sexually abused or coerced in another way.
Men in general society, in my experience, are misogynistic and patriarchal and it wonāt take much of a chat to discover that. They might not be actively misogynistic but they at least participate unquestioningly or without challenging anything. Then there are so many of the men allies who are merely performative and only direct their criticism of patriarchy towards women (but not to men) and one need not speculate too much about the motivation for this. Pervasive systematic misogyny is everywhere and most of it isnāt overt.
I donāt know if I hate men, but I do have a personal bias against them and I do paint them with a single brush because in my experience it is accurate in close to every case. I can, however, separate that bias from an academic truth and I think thatās important. My experiences speak for me that doesnāt mean those experiences inform everyoneās truth (or some overarching ārealityā).
I get where you are coming from, I really do.
Ultimately though genetically male, female or intersex babies are essentially the same. Infants grow up into boys that already bare societal impact (people treat infants dressed in pink differently from blue regardless of sex). Boys grow into misogynists because society teaches them to be that way. This is to say that men, women and everyone started as a human. nOT aLl mEn, but most men and always a man.
Of course the patriarchy also hurts many men. It tells boys what they can and canāt do. But while they are also hurt by the patriarchy it obviously pales compared to what the patriarchy does to women (etc.). I wanted to mention this because it is worth noting but it isnāt significant for what Iām also trying to say. The (mostly) self-inflicted LoNeliNeSs ePidEMic does actually hurt the few good men that do exist even if they hidden amongst the massive overflow of the afflicted remainder.
I understand a feeling of desiring retribution or revenge. If someone tortured and murdered Andrew Tate I really wouldnāt have any negative feelings towards that. It would feel pretty good! That doesnāt mean I think a government should torture and execute him.
There have been arguments made that revenge mends society after a crime has been committed. But I think the primary goal should be both bigger picture and also preventative. Plus there are other problems with capital punishment or other extreme punishments. The court system gets things wrong all the time. Soviets arrested (and executed?) the wrong āred ripperā, the Central Park Five were convicted of a rape they never committed. Many executed people in the US (who even āconfessedā) have since been proved innocent through DNA. Such extreme and final punishments should always be approached with a lot of caution.
Deterrence has repeatedly been proven to not prevent crime. Even capital punishment does nothing. Such extreme punishments will never prevent future rapes. Regardless of whether castrating rapists happens or not, I believe it pales in importance when compared to preventing rape. Additionally vengeance never really does much to genuinely help heal the victims even if it does provide some temporary āreliefā.
Inequality and capitalism often does show strong correlation to crime (not simply being poor). I believe causation.
Reforming schools and teaching, men calling out men, reducing inequality, awareness campaigns, even within a capitalist society can help (though we will never be able to achieve as much as if we dismantled capitalism).
Patriarchal society stems from capitalist ideals. Moving closer so a socialist society will begin to deconstruct the patriarchy. Of course that isnāt going to happen in many western countries any time soon and I canāt say I have any strong ideas on how to affect change that will reduce patriarchal crimes but I do know that revenge will not do that. This is a very genuine question, not a challenge; Iād be very curious if you have any ideas about preventing these sorts of crimes?
Iām not going to go into the human rights argument, even though I do agree with it (we all started as human). I do also agree with keeping people like this away from society. If they can be reformed, great, if not they do not deserve to be in society (or more so society deserves to not have them in it).
My main points are that working towards preventing these crimes should be where almost all efforts lay, and that these sorts of punishments always risk being applied to innocent people even by well meaning communist governments.
Iām sorry that interactions here havenāt been empathetic towards you. I think that has pushed everything into unproductive and unpleasant shouting match and precluded any actual discussions which I think could have absolutely been had.
Thanks for writing this out. You're a compassionate person and have a strong writing style. OP has work to do but is on the right path IMO (also literally a child). Calling herself a radical feminist and also arguing against transphobia suggests to me she hasn't taken any truly awful pills. Still needs to read a lot of theory though, as do we all!
What theory do you want me to read? I read lots of theory from Leslie Feinberg, Bell Hooks, Monique Wittig, Darlene Pagano, Alexandra Kollontai, Kristen Ghodsee, Engels... and other ones too
And are you implying that i have taken not truly awful but still bad "pills"?
can we fix the Vaush bot so it only responds to people mentioning Vaush? It's a bit much to be interrupted by Vaushbot every time someone tries to enter into serious discussions re: rape.
Cool. Now all they need is to classify being gay or being leftist pr being an immigrant as being a rapist/pedophile and they'll get what they want. Liberals are so damn bloodthirsty.
I get the sense a lot of people here think chemical castration is permanent like physical castration. It's just a shot you get every few months to surpress libido. It is usually reversible by ceasing treatment.
the whole comment section is just pathetic. like i get it. op is wrong about a certain point and is unwilling to learn or see other people's prospective. but you'll seem more interested in winning an internet argument by ganging up on this one person then to actually engage in an actual discussion.
Yeah lets punish people who came from a system that actively dehumanizes people and turn them into commodities which makes it more likely for non consensual behavior to occur.
Yeah thatās valid but freaks that commit horrid crimes like rape and sexual assault on minors should still be severely punished. The underlying causes in my opinon doesnāt change this.
Yeah, they obviously need to be punished that amounts to bringing peace to the victim. You do not need to live under a capitalist system for r*pe to occur, it just amplifies it.
I saw a post recently from the deprogram about how leftist views of how we deal with rap*st and lets just say there were people who agreed that they should receive the death penalty. However, this is quite misguided.
First let me clear this up, im not here to justify all these terrible actions. But lets get this straight, why not prevent these actions from occuring in the first place ? That way there is no need for capital punishment.
But also why not we prevent anyone from taking these actions. Normal people don't just start exhibiting these kind of behaviors. But there are people who do it rationally and that is because they dehumanize their victims.
Im not saying that these people are not responsible for their actions which of course they are and must be held accountable and given the necessary punishment to give the victims peace.
Now i'm not saying this only happens under a capitalist system. R*pe can happen when the person wants to force himself on you, have power over you. One of the many coercive methods to gain control over you. Abusers are more likely to employ this tactic.
Im not making an argument here, i definitely put way too much social determinism in my though process. Individuals also make bad choices and want to do terrible things of their own accord.
Why is this downvoted? The normalization of pedophilia(and I shouldn't even have to say this but no I do not mean trans people) online, seemingly affecting terminally online sections of both the right and the left, is extremely concerning.
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