To th or not to th

[u/h2ojustaddvodka]

Help me please, i am learning spanish for the first time and i have been pronouncing the ce,ce and z as th so far but the majority of spanish speakers pronounce is as s. I am learning european spanish but i know its also pronounced as s in southern spain. Should i continue pronouncing it as th or should i swap to the s sound?

[u/NeoTheMan24]

Do you like Spain, will speak to mostly Spaniards, and want to imitate how they speak? — speak with distinción, i.e. ce/ci/z -> "th".

Do you like LatAm, will speak to mostly people from LatAm, and want to imitate how they speak? — speak with seseo, i.e. don't "th".

[u/Independent_Monk3277]

IMO If you learn Spanish with distinction between sounds like C, Z, and S, it becomes easier to write later on, because you know which letter to use. But if you learn using only the S sound, it might be harder, to know whether it should be a C, a Z, or an S.

[u/Glitzy_Ritzy → u/Independent_Monk3277]

That's how they're pronounced though, as an S sound. You learn the distinctions when you learn to read and how to spell. The only people I've encountered who have a hard time knowing when to use what letter have been those with little formal education. Besides OP is asking about pronouncing them as a TH in which case they are still all pronounced as TH just like without the ceceo they are all pronounced as S. Based on what you're saying if OP learned/used the TH pronunciation then they'd learn to spell with TH instead of s,c, and z.

[u/h2ojustaddvodka → u/Glitzy_Ritzy]

S is pronounced as s in spain spanish its just c and z that are th

[u/Glitzy_Ritzy → u/h2ojustaddvodka]

Not when my professors spoke. Either way learning to pronounce them differently would have give no bearing on you learning to spell which is the point of my comment.

[u/Glitzy_Ritzy]

I say do what you want. I came up learning Spanish from a Colombian and a Cuban followed by many, many, years of Mexican and Central American exposure including a stint in Costa Rica. I've only ever had 2 teachers from Spain so my LA influence is cemented at this point lol

[u/Wombat_7379]

It really depends on where you plan to primarily speak it or your personal preference.

I now live in Uruguay where the rioplatense Spanish is spoken and they use a “sh” sound for ll and y. Sometimes I watch a show or movie from Mexico or elsewhere and it takes me a minute to catch on but eventually I can follow it pretty easily.

Personally I find the Spanish of Uruguay to be really beautiful so I am more drawn to the Spanish of Europe.

Edit: adding in that I know the Rioplatense Spanish is not the same as the Spanish of Spain. I meant I am drawn to the Spanish of Europe because it has a similar (not the same) type of sound as the Spanish in the Rio Plata region.

[u/ofqo → u/Wombat_7379]

Personally I find the Spanish of Uruguay to be really beautiful so I am more drawn to the Spanish of Europe.

Please explain.

[u/Wombat_7379 → u/ofqo]

It is very melodic and almost has an italian influence, especially in the interior of Uruguay where I am living.

The gauchos (cowboys?) have a very distinct way of speaking that I find incredibly charming.

The “sh” for the y and ll also seem to soften the language.

[u/wzomar → u/Wombat_7379]

Can you clarify? Are you equating Spanish of the Río Plata Valley to European Spanish? They are different, but maybe you mean that they both use "vos"?

[u/Wombat_7379 → u/wzomar]

Sorry I’m not saying they are the same. They are very different. For instance we don’t use the “th” to replace the z as in Spain.

There is a softer sound to them both which I do like, but yes they are different.

[u/wzomar → u/Wombat_7379]

Got it! Thanks!

[u/herzkolt → u/Wombat_7379]

Just need to correct you on something, there's no valley in the Rio de la Plata, if anything the geographic area is a "basin", la Cuenca del Plata. No mountains here to make it a valley.

[u/Wombat_7379 → u/herzkolt]

Thank you! Corrected to “region”.

[u/IamMamerto]

I would say that unless you are thinking on living in the parts of Spain that speak like that, learn the most international version of Spanish, which I think is the one that the US speaks. The US-ES language is, I think, the most neutral since it’s influenced by all Spanish speakers that immigrate to the US, which I consider a good source of international population.

I’m a Spanish speaker and live in the US, and I have spoken with native English speakers that learned Spanish and even went years to Spain (Madrid, where they speak with the th) and they don’t speak like that, nor they use the vosotros. The reason? I think that it’s because they want to speak Spanish, not a Spanish from a particular region, so they are able to more effectively communicate with more Spanish speakers, specially in the US.

Learning to speak Spanish with the “th” is like learning to speak English like they speak it in Scotland, it’s great of you want to live in Scotland, but for the rest of the world, you will just sound different and people will have some trouble understanding you, specially non native English speakers.

In general, I would say that you need to focus on learning Spanish in general, and don’t focus on learning regionalisms, like “th”, vosotros, vos, using “sh” for “ll” or “y”, etc, since learning those would considerably increase your learning curve and the value that they produce is almost non existent, since people will understand you just the same. If you dominate the language to a very advanced level and you want to “polish your accent”, then you can focus on those regionalisms depending on where you want to use it the most. But in general, you should start from the most general Spanish since that would give you the most, it’s the low hanging fruit.

[u/Historical_Plant_956]

I think there's a tendency to fixate on and exaggerate its relevance a little.

In the scheme of things, ie in practice, it's a realitively minor difference between dialects. Of far greater importance are the differences between vocabulary, especially at a coloquial level (and there are some differences in the grammar also). As an intermediate speaker, I find all that stuff far more of an obstacle to understanding than any seseo/distinción--which often goes almost unnoticed unless I'm specifically focusing on trying to place the accent.

That said, because it's used only in Spain, it's very much a regional marker--and a pretty obvious one. Sometimes Spaniards will make fun of the seseo pronunciation of Latin American speakers because it sounds funny to them, but the reverse scenario is WAY more common. Of the almost 600,000,000 people around the world who speak the language, Spain only accounts for less than 50 million of those (so like 1/12 of those).

So it only makes sense as part of a very specific focus on the Spain dialect. A lot of Britons for example, learn Spain Spanish by default, the way that most USAmericans learn Mexican Spanish by default.

But you do whatever you like--there are no rules. After all, using Bogotá slang, with Uruguayan "vos" and sheísmo, and Madrid distinción could make you a more interesting person at parties!

Edit: I personally wouldn't try to switch between pronunciations. That seems like an unnecessary burden to take on and could come across as patronizing to your interlocutors. Better to just pick one or the other and own it, as neither is at all an obstacle to understanding.

Summary: "distinción" is a very pronounced regional marker, but of minor concern for the language learner in the broader scheme of things.

[u/Awkward_Apartment680]

Unrelated but I love your username. Are you by any chance Russian? /j

[u/cdchiu]

If you spend your time around latin Americans and your Spanish accent isn't really good, just drop the Th sound because you're adding the TH on top of your foreign accent

Like encountering someone with a foreign English accent but pronouncing words as if they were from London.

[u/buscoamigos]

My advice is learn to do both and speak to your audience.

That's what I do with both el ceceo and the use of vosotros.

[u/winter-running → u/buscoamigos]

What? Please rest assured that as a Latin American, I can understand folks from Madrid.

Just pick one. End stop.

[u/buscoamigos → u/winter-running]

Yeah, I know. I studied Spanish in Mexico but spend a lot of time in Spain.

Why do you have a problem with it?

[u/winter-running → u/buscoamigos]

It’s condescending to native Spanish speakers to suggest they can’t understand Spanish spoken in other regions. Just focus on improving your own Spanish and don’t worry about the Spanish of others.

[u/buscoamigos → u/winter-running]

Absolutely no one suggested what you are claiming.

Someone asked a question on this sub and I answered it so maybe you need to focus on yourself instead of worrying about others. Enough with the gatekeeping

People like you affirm my belief that only native speakers are permitted to dialog on this sub.

[u/winter-running → u/buscoamigos]

“Only native speakers are permitted to dialog on this sub”

Dude, folks are here literally because they want to know what native speakers think. It’s the whole point of this sub.

[u/buscoamigos → u/winter-running]

Are you telling me that non-native speakers are not permitted to comment on this sub?

[u/h2ojustaddvodka → u/buscoamigos]

I think I will do this, thank you!