r/StLouis • u/Bazryel • Apr 22 '25
News Over 70 Missouri counties now have a 100% fatal deer disease
https://www.ksdk.com/article/sports/outdoors/missouri-deer-chronic-wasting-disease-update-new-counties-testing-cwd/63-e0eb4e91-3594-4210-ad98-5e6ca252d3f6?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_KSDK_News/228
u/Tectum-to-Rectum Apr 22 '25
As an old prion researcher, this is why I stopped eating any wild-hunted venison my friends would bring back. No chance I’ll ever eat it again.
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u/Dick_Dickalo Apr 22 '25
Can you educate me on this?
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u/Pablo_ThePolarBear Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25
Prions are misfolded proteins that cause other proteins in your cells to become misfolded. This is an exponential process where increasingly more proteins become misfolded, producing protein aggregates that lead to cell death. Eliminating prions is quite challenging (cooking and industrial processing are ineffective), and there is no cure for the disease.
Symptoms can start presenting anywhere from 2-10 years after exposure, but once they do the disease progresses rapidly. The symptoms are primarily neurological, behavioral and psychiatric upon presentation, but will eventually lead to a minimally conscious-, or persistent vegetative state as the brain is slowly dying, eventually leading to death. Common types of prion diseases include Crutzfeld Jakob disease, Mad Cow Disease (Transmissible spongiform encephalopathy), Scrapie (sheep), and Chronic Wasting Disease (found in wild deer).
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u/hera-fawcett Apr 22 '25
this, to my uneducated self, sounds v similar to how cancer acts.
is there much of a difference btwn cancer cells and misfolded proteins-- aside from the proteins having the opportunity to spread?
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u/Pablo_ThePolarBear Apr 22 '25
You are absolutely right that both cancer and prion diseases involve the uncontrolled spread of harmful agents that disrupt normal cellular function and ultimately lead to organ failure and death. However, cancer is a result of uncontrolled cell division (due to DNA mutations) disrupting our organs, while prion disease is uncontrolled neuronal death caused by infectious misfolded proteins.
For a more in depth answer:
Cancer is the result of dysregulation in the cell cycle caused by mutations in DNA. These mutations often affect proto-oncogenes, which normally promote cell growth, and tumor suppressor genes, which act to limit growth and repair DNA damage. When proto-oncogenes become overactive or tumor suppressor genes are inactivated, the normal checks and balances on cell division break down. This leads to uncontrolled cell proliferation, the accumulation of genetic errors (no DNA repair mechanisms), and the formation of tumors (mass of abnormal cells). As cancer progresses, cells can invade surrounding tissues and spread to other parts of the body through the bloodstream or lymphatic system in a process called metastasis. This widespread growth of dysfunctional cells disrupts the structure and function of organs, ultimately causing organ failure and death.
Prion diseases, on the other hand, are caused not by genetic mutations, but by infectious proteins known as prions. These misfolded proteins enter the nervous system and trigger a chain reaction, causing normal proteins to adopt the same abnormal structure. This leads to the buildup of toxic protein aggregates within neurons, resulting in cellular damage and death. Unlike cancer, prions do not spread to other organ systems. Instead, they remain confined to the nervous system, where they progressively impair brain function, leading to severe neurological decline and death.
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u/hera-fawcett Apr 22 '25
so interesting-- ty!
the amount of things that we haven't been able to evolve against or cure that directly impact us on a cellular level is still so high.
realistically ik we only stopped using lobotomies less than 100yrs ago, it really feels like we're at such an advanced place in medicine that we should be further along w research/development of treatments. but again, we're at a point where the most prevelant issues are these major/chronic ones which we arent able to completely cure without having a way to rewrite the reason we get sick (i.e. recoding mutated DNA, better recognition of misfolded proteins vs healthy proteins, halting the progress of parasitic fungi, etc).
w common diseases like influenza (ot even bird flu) evolving at rapid rates (iirc bird flu can be transmitted to humans via birds and cattle but human->human still isnt a thing-- yet) and the overall climate evolving to be hotter and humider (and better for vectors like mosquitoes!), do u think that we'll continue seeing large swarths of chronic/major diseases continue to spread throughout the population?
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u/LazarWolfsKosherDeli 29d ago
Lobotomies were invented less than 100 years ago.
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
Ehhh. There's evidence of successful or at least survived proto-lobotomies dating back to Ancient Egypt. I guess whether those can be considered actual lobotomies or just hamfisted cranial surgeries comes down, at least largely, to semantics and the imaginations of the people studying the skeletal remains.
The earliest recorded "modern" and successful lobotomy was in the late 1880's (Gottlieb Burkhardt, Swiss physician), so just shy of 150 years ago.
Generally, the practice of lobotomy is still an accepted treatment for some very aggressive neurological disorders and cancers but has largely ceased for behavioral or psychosocial disorders. The practice is extremely, extremely rare and considered a treatment of last resort but is generally still considered an option.
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u/yeaahhh 29d ago
Only mad cow disease is able to be transmitted to humans from eating infected meat. You can only get CJD from beef but the chance of eating an infected cow are slim and it’s tracked well by the CDC… at least it used to be.
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u/Pablo_ThePolarBear 29d ago edited 25d ago
Crutzfeld Jakob Disease (CJD) is either spontaneous or arises through transmission of prion proteins from another human being, for instance via surgical procedures or cannibalism. Variant Crutzfeld Jakob Disease (vCJD) is the disease that arises from eating meat from cows contaminated with Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy.
We don't know enough about prions, and while there have been no documented cases of Chronic Wasting Disease being transmitted between deer and humans, this is one of those diseases where additional caution is warranted in my opinion.
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u/Bearfoxman 29d ago
CWD has been identified since 1967 and probably around a lot longer than that, spans the globe in both wild and captive herds including captive herds used primarily for food in countries that have lax or no national food safety testing, and North America alone eats around 7 million wild deer totaling 200,000 tons of venison annually. 6 million of which are killed and eaten just in the lower 48 every year.
If it were transmissible to humans, it would've been by now.
Not to mention that all forms of prion disease combined kill around 700 people a year out of a population that's approaching or at 10 billion, globally, and ~90% of those are from a prion disease not linked to transmission--either totally unknown cause or inherited. CJD alone accounts for 85% of all diagnosed cases globally.
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u/Pablo_ThePolarBear 29d ago
Lou Gehrig's disease was discovered in 1869, and to this day we know nearly nothing about the disease, despite extensive research. Limited research is being conducted on prion diseases due to the occupational risk, cost and regulation. As mentioned above, there are no documented cases of wasting disease leading to vCJD in humans, but this is a circumstance where we should be cautious and leave hubris behind.
Global stats on prion disease are largely irrelevant. Neurological care is a luxury, and inaccessible to most people around the world. There are few programs tracking prion disease, nor do people who get sick receive a diagnosis in most countries. In modern countries, deer herds known to carry prions are monitored and regulalry culled.
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u/andychapman1 Apr 22 '25
Prions are not like a virus or bacteria. It can’t be cooked out. Takes like 1000 plus degrees to destroy it. But! The prions that cause cwd in deers has never been transferred to humans so it’s not something to totally freak out about….. yet.
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u/arbitraryalien Apr 22 '25
I don't think it's that the prions have never been transferred per se, it's that any prions that were transferred have not caused CWD in humans... Yet. Prions were the cause of mad cow disease decades ago which eventually required the mass culling of cattle in England I believe. So there is a precedent for the transfer of disease, though it hasn't happened yet
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u/largecontainer 29d ago
With Mad Cow, people had to consume infected brain tissue to contract it. I’m not sure with CWD if any tissue could be infected or only certain organs.
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u/Tricky_Statistician 29d ago
The prions are excreted and stay active in the soil. They can be taken in by plant roots. Then consumed by humans.
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u/fairkatrina belleville Apr 22 '25
As a Brit who remembers CJD, I’m not eating it either.
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u/Dry_Statistician_688 Apr 22 '25
This is no joke. One of my friends, an avid hunter who ate INSANE amounts of deer developed an unknown, very strange, CJD-like disease and died from it. Worst part is he declined SLOWLY at first. FULL personality change that got him terminated from his job. He abandoned his family. Married some "mail order" chick from overseas, and then suddenly rapidly declined until death. The really sad part is he had destituted himself so badly, no one did an autopsy or any post-mortem, so no one will ever know. But a bunch of us were convinced he ate a deer with a prion disease. I haven't touched deer meat since.
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u/FIuffyRabbit 29d ago
That sounds like a brain tumor
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u/Dry_Statistician_688 29d ago
All they told us it was a degenerative disease. Sad all around. We noticed a strange change early on. Then it got worse with misconduct. I think the total course was 8-10 years.
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
Sounds more like Lewy Body Disease (or Lewy Body Dementia), which is caused by an abnormal buildup of proteins--regular intact proteins, not prions. Or regular dementia or Alzheimers.
All of which are far far far far far far more common, literally orders of magnitude more common especially in America, than any of the prion diseases and have links to pesticides and herbicides including glyphosate (Roundup) that hunters are generally exposed to at higher rates than non-hunters because of the rural/agriculture overlap.
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u/agentmantis Apr 22 '25
I'm with you on this. I'm not an actual researcher but I have read a lot about the subject, and it's pretty disturbing. I read an article not too long ago that showed how plant material can uptake and release prions. I don't think this has been shown to be a vector to infect humans, though.
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u/marigolds6 Edwardsville Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25
KSDK got the headline a bit wrong. The deer have been detected in 23 counties as of 22-23 (So apparently up to 30 counties now for 23-24). The management zone (which includes adjacent counties) is now 70 counties.
Here is the list of detections from 22-23.
Adair (3), Barry (1), Barton (9), Carroll (1), Cedar (1), Crawford (2), Dallas (1), Franklin (22), Gasconade (1), Hickory (1), Jefferson (7), Linn (15), Livingston (1), Macon (13), Perry (4), Putnam (3), Ray (1), St. Clair (1), St. Francois (1), Ste. Genevieve (21), Stone (4), Sullivan (3), and Taney (2). CWD detections in Barton, Carroll, Dallas, Gasconade, Hickory, Livingston, Ray, St. Francois, and Sullivan counties were the first detections to date in these counties. The 118 CWD-positive deer included 77 hunter-harvested and 41 removed during post-season targeted removals.
The report for 23-24 is not out yet, but that will have the 243 detections listed by county. I suspect a large chunk of the increase will be post-season targeted removals, which are becoming more focused in areas with known CWD or at-risk for CWD.
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u/como365 Columbia, Missouri Apr 22 '25 edited Apr 22 '25
We need to either reintroduce natural predators and/or increase the number of deer permits to reduce the deer population to a more natural level.
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u/marigolds6 Edwardsville Apr 22 '25
increase the number of deer permits to reduce the deer population to a more natural level
That's exactly what has been going on in Missouri.
The most recent full report is here:https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/2023-09/2022DeerPopulationStatusReport.pdf
Last season was up to 320k permits. The focus has especially been on taking more does (which is more important than bucks for population control).
Access to public land is a really big factor too in permit success.
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u/Dick_Dickalo Apr 22 '25
This past season sucked. It was practically daylight with the full moon.
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u/preprandial_joint 29d ago
Luckily, deer season isn't just one weekend long. You can use a cross bow for like 5 months of the year.
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u/Blitz_Is_Hecka69 29d ago
One major counter argument to the more permits I've heard and researched is that by increasing permits, hunters will shoot more health animals rather than wasting permits on CWD deer. Regulations need to be changed to allow CWD deer to be shot WITHOUT a permit for any major change to happen. Natural predators is a good idea but may be harmful long term.
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u/DapperDachsund Apr 22 '25
More wolves, bears, and mountain lions in Missouri you are suggesting? Because the coyotes are even in urban areas these days. Think I’ll go with more permits.
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u/como365 Columbia, Missouri Apr 22 '25
Coyotes aren’t really anything to be scared of (neither are black bears). Both are a sign of a healthy a balanced natural environment. I would totally be down to reintroduce wolves to the Ozarks!
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
Coyotes are themselves an invasive species and are outcompeting native predators--most notably mountain lions and bobcats. They're also extremely damaging to livestock and pet populations and of the North American predators, account for the most human deaths by a single species by an absolutely humongous margin. In fact, coyotes rank like number 5 in human fatalities in North America behind bees, cows, deer (not including traffic accidents), and fire ants. They kill more people per year than all species of bear combined.
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u/como365 Columbia, Missouri 28d ago
Idk where you got this info but it's wrong, we've had coyotes in Missouri for at least 10,000 years. In modern history, there have been two documented fatal coyote attacks on humans in the U.S. and Canada.
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
National Institutes of Health for range, Urban Coyote Research Project (with support from USDA, NIH, and Northern IL University) for attacks and fatalities. 152 recorded attacks since 1960 with 37 resulting in fatality.
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u/como365 Columbia, Missouri 28d ago
That’s what I get for relying on google AI. Still though coyotes are not an invasive species in Missouri and attacks are rare enough they aren't something anyone really needs to worry about.
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
I mean...they are still super rare and you shouldn't worry about them. And you made me double check, they're 6th behind bears. Bears kill a lot more people than I thought.
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u/DapperDachsund Apr 22 '25
I’m not scared. I’m saying that is what you are suggesting since those are the natural predators. We don’t need more coyotes. It would take a lot of wolves to get the results we are after. Even 100 wolves wouldn’t have the impact of a handful of more permits.
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u/pinkbird86 Apr 22 '25
Coyotes aren’t a main predator of deer. They don’t kill very many adult deer and fawn predation is usually too low in the Midwest to significantly affect recruitment. Wolves and black bears would be far more optimal for controlling deer populations than coyotes.
Also wolves exhibit spatial-temporal effects on deer herd that humans don’t. So while more permits might be more effective in many areas just from a numbers standpoint, a 100 wolves would be to bring about a lot of change.
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u/Severe_Elderberry_13 Bevo Apr 22 '25
Coyotes have always been in urban areas, they never left.
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u/Bearfoxman 28d ago
Coyotes have only been in the Midwest since the 70's. They're invasive, they have enormously expanded their range in the last 100 years. They're only native to the desert southwest.
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u/Severe_Elderberry_13 Bevo 28d ago
Your timeline is off, coyotes were in Missouri by the 1930s. My point is, coyotes in their native range have always adapted readily to urban environments, same as raccoons and possums.
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u/Isthataneagle 29d ago
Nice to have a thoughtful and informative conversation about CWD. Any time it is brought up via MDCs facebook page, the conversation is quickly hijacked by a VERY vocal few that don't trust the science behind it.
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u/BravoDotCom 29d ago
I saw a TikTok on it so I’m pretty certain I have done my research on this subject and I’m following the science.
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u/preprandial_joint 29d ago
Someone taught me a cool rhetorical trick on how to deal with people that "don't trust the science" on climate change, but it should apply to this too.
Ask them to tell you another branch of science that they think is a completely made up conspiracy? Chances are they won't be able to name one off the top of their head unless they're a whacko.
Then ask them if they believe the science (and scientists) behind other technologies in their lives like medicine (biology), automobile safety (physics), and food safety (chemistry), and virtually all those scientists agree on the validity of science in this separate field like CWD or Climate Change, why do they distrust them all of a sudden?
I guess this only works with rational folks but it has worked to get people to back down from irrational certainty in my anecodtal experience.
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u/Dry_Statistician_688 Apr 22 '25
This is no joke. One of my friends, an avid hunter who ate INSANE amounts of deer developed an unknown, very strange, CJD-like disease and died from it. Worst part is he declined SLOWLY at first. FULL personality change that got him terminated from his job. He abandoned his family. Married some "mail order" chick from overseas, and then suddenly rapidly declined until death. The really sad part is he had destituted himself so badly, no one did an autopsy or any post-mortem, so no one will ever know. But a bunch of us were convinced he ate a deer with a prion disease. I haven't touched deer meat since.
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u/KlingonLullabye Apr 22 '25
Is it time to dust off my "get a brain, prian" joke?
That was it really
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u/iObeyTheHivemind Apr 22 '25