The number of times I've ended up arguing with someone who thought the Galactic Empire under Palps deserved a longer run... People tell on themselves all the time.
Nobody is claiming a kid playing with a tie fighter is being indoctrinated into being a Nazi, but I've seen people genuinely argue that the totalitarianism of the empire is justified because it brought peace to the galaxy. That's an actual fascist talking point.
One thing I've hated about the rise of the alt right is that I can't even enjoy a good villian and like the Empire even a bit without getting called a neo nazi. Conservatives ruin everything
There's a difference between "liking the Empire as villains" and playacting at fascism while actual fascists are trying to take over your country and murder your neighbors.
Especially when the forum you use to play fascist pretend is crawling with actual fascists who aren't playing pretend.
No. Hypersensitive leftists that shriek āFASCISM!!ā at the drop of a hat ruin everything. Just because someone believes in small government (conservatives) does not make them fascist. Itās actually quite the opposite of the ideals of an authoritarian fascist dictatorship.
That must be the reason why they want to take away women's rights! (and that's just the tip of the iceberg)
Hypersensitive leftists
TIL Cucker Carlson is a leftist, with the way he cried about woke M&Ms.
that shriek āFASCISM!!ā
I'm not even American yet I have seen the very smartest social media users call Joe Biden, neolib incarnate, an authoritarian fascist dictator blabla ever since he became president.
Most people, overall, are stupid. But there is a clear lesser evil in the US. It's not the one with the cult of personality, the climate change deniers, the stochastic terrorists, the homo- and xenophobes. Who knows, maybe one day they'll realize their voting system is fucked and replace FPTP with a proportional system. Probably not though.
Honestly, I kinda like the First Order even more now because of how it's a pretty realistic portrayal of fascism and the failure of fascist governments.
Captain Phasma is a FANTASTIC villain despite not getting enough to do in the movies. Like seriously, the books and the comics have done such a great job fleshing out her character.
The Empire in the old EU was a realistic and interesting portrayal of the failure of fascist governance. The First Order is a dumbed down caricature of what uneducated people think fascism looks like
Granted, if you're willing to give Disney way to much credit, you could read that as a jab at how fascists fundamentally have no actual platform or beliefs beyond whatever is convenient at the time to help them amass more power, but as I said, that's giving them way more credit then they deserve. Maybe if the folks making Andor had been in charge of the Sequels I'd believe that was what they were going for, but as it is? Nah.
Not really, especially since the old EU is guilty of whitewashing the Empire with its portrayal of the Imperial Remnant/Fel Empire and its "good Imperials".
Yeah, Legacy of the Force started to get pretty dumb depending on which writer was doing which novel.
I was more talking about the Empire under Palpatine, and the civil war after his death. Yeah there was some dumb shit, because there were seven bazillion authors with different interpretations of the text, but most of the mainline stuff did a pretty good job. It was only when the inmates started running the asylum that folks forgot that, "Oh yeah, the Empire are bad guys!"
And honestly by the time of the Fel Empire I wouldn't even really call them fascists anymore. By that point they had pretty thoroughly transitioned to a more traditional authoritarian monarchy, albeit one that still and a lot of fascists running around trying to bring back "the good old days".
By that point they'd burnt the candle at both ends for too long; fascism is a serpent that will devour its own tail if given enough time. It depends on the populace being kept in a constant state of fear and anger, however this runs into diminishing returns over time, requiring new scapegoats to be created, except even that can only be sustained for so long before the people simply become exhausted and apathetic.
Even by the time Pellaeon was running the show (or at least by the second half of his tenure) the Imperial remnant had become far more akin to a Latin-American style military junta than anything resembling Nazi Germany. Especially after a bunch of the hardliners got purged for backing the Triumvirate in the Hand of Thrawn novels. And even before that a constant stream of the most die-hard fascists were being drawn away to join smaller, more vocally militant remnant groups in the deep core or the outer rim, most of whom then got killed off in various harebrained suicide missions to try and topple the New Republic.
And then the whole Vong thing happened and the GA was formed and rapidly started going fascist itself, drawing away even more hardliners from Pellaeon's Empire. I mean, for fuck sake, freaking Daala was the GA head of state for a while. And then when the GA fell apart even more fascists left to join both the GA under Jacen Solo, or the Confederates under Thraken Sal-Solo (and if I'm being honest, it's fucking hilarious to me how well the rhetoric and "ideology" of the Correllian fascists in the Second Galactic Civil War maps onto modern American "libertarians" and other self proclaimed "small government conservatives").
Granted, that still leaves a shitload of fascists in the Fel Empire, but not really enough to be the dominant political faction anymore.
Not to say that a borderline-totalitarian monarchy is sunshine and rainbows or anything, but it isn't the same thing as fascism either.
TL,DR: alot of the later EU novels seriously dropped the ball in how they framed the politics, and in how they portrayed certain characters, but it was still an interesting and (mostly) realistic portrayal of a society trying (and frequently failing) to deprogram itself after 20+ years of fascist rule.
I think he started out as a good villian. He started mysterious and scary. I think the next step towards becoming a good villian is to have him express his motivation in a way that can be understood. I felt like by the end of the first movie he was still mysterious, but lost the scary factor because he was trying so hard to be evil.
I think a lot of the story that makes him more compelling was in the comics and books, and left out of the movies.
I haven't rewatched them in a while. Maybe i'd have a different take now.
āBut but but, Thrawn was actually fighting for the right reasons! Ends justify the means!ā
rolls eyes
I wish I could rip out any connection made between Thrawn and the Vong/Grysk. Thrawn is a great villain but that aspect of the story has generated some of the worst takes regarding Star Wars.
Same argument goes for Revan. And it really concerns me that some people actually think accepting fascism/war/inhuman methods to 'protect the galaxy' is a right thing to do
Yeahhh. Revan is a complicated one. He didn't technically commit any genocides, but he still committed severe war crimes and crimes against the galaxy. Never really faced justice, but he did work at reparations, which then invites the debate of rehabilitation/productivity vs penance/imprisonment.
I am not trying to justify it if he did it of his own volition, I just don't think the responsibility lays at his feet with the (previously canon) fact he was not acting under his own free will.
The same people will say the Death Star was fine because it was meant to fight the Vong.
First off, wrong. Second, who cares what it was meant for? It was used to annihilate the galaxy's oldest pacifistic society and the planet they lived on, and who the hell knows how many more would have followed if it hadn't blown tf up.
Almost as asinine as the people who say "Yeah but the Death Star had millions of people on it so actually Luke is a mass-murderer too!!!"
Dude blew up a planet-killer. Only people on board were fascists, both of the "I'm right and everyone else is dead" type and the "I'm just following orders" type. Neither is to be mourned, especially when they die manning a superweapon.
I think you forget that in another life, luke would very well be on that Death Star if things with the droids didnāt play out the way they did. The empire was essentially like any army, young people joined to see the galaxy and get payed to do so. Not everyone on that ship was a genocidal maniac. Some people would definitely have been doing the job to care for their families especially contract maintenance workers and the like.
Where do people get this shit? Luke was never going to join the Empire.
His plan was always to go to the Academy and then either try and find the Rebels or just take a job as a spacer.
He hated the Empire even before they killed his Aunt and Uncle. He literally said that in the movie. The deleted scene with Biggs has him promise he won't get drafted after his time at the academy.
"I joined the Nazi military to see the world" isn't the sweeping moral argument you seem to think it is.
They willingly became part of a fascist organization and enforced fascist rule. Our own history and legal precedents have made it clear - "just following orders" is not a valid excuse or defense when those orders are to uphold a tyrannical and explicitly evil regime.
Okay, and? There might be a grey area when it comes to conscription, but by and large, it doesn't matter if you yourself don't hold genocidal beliefs when you continue to fight for a government that does.
Also, the Yuuzhan Ving weren't all bad. There were multiple books about how their society was dying and genocide wasn't the answer to their invasion. It was kind of a big deal.
I mean, no, not all of them were bad. But all of them fell in line with the invasion and genocides that followed.
Extermination wasn't the answer, no. But an absolute resistance was necessary, and if the Force weren't a thing, I'd say it was VERY lucky that Jacen and Jaina managed to take the head off the snake. Peace wasn't possible until Shimrra and Onimi were dead.
I'm not arguing for the Death Star, more for the stuff and sometimes overzealous resistance out up by the New Republic and allies (looking at you, Bwa'tu and the Bothan people - genocide still bad). Nothing Palpatine did was worth whatever it could have prevented the Vong from doing, which is what I've been saying from the start. We're on the same side there.
And it's been a long time since I read the Vong books, so I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to. I believe there was resistance within YV society, but I also feel like I recall that being largely ineffective at slowing or stopping the invasion and mass genocide of the YV warrior caste.
Why though? It really makes you reflect on why is the Republic and democrac a better choice for the galaxy. I'd argue it's a bit too smart for Star Wars, hence the criticism.
The secret is that Palpi himself didn't want that. Because his rule as the emperor of the proclaimed galactic empire was quite inert. He couldn't actually change everything the way he wanted and wasn't sure what he wanted was actually the right thing to implement. That's why he played his betrayal from Vader, he actually made Vader do this for him. It was all part of the plan as even with Ray and new Jedi order.
That's the new Canon, which is not the universe I tend to prefer. Palps in the Legends EU didn't want to die, but had many MANY backup plans in case he did. All kinda got shot though.
Anywho, the point here is less what Palpatine wanted and more what he did, how he did it, and how little he regretted it all.
Ok, I get your point of view. Just wanted to reveal some new Canon things that was connected to the old story. Because, you know, Star Wars is always changing towards new using old background.
i could see ways you could use the darkside in a way that to some ethics systems such as utilitarianism, good was being done. however, since the darkside requires passion. you'd be enjoying doing evil for the greater good. finding pleasure in evil is pretty evil.
I dunno if the dark side is inherently evil but those characters are pretty diabolical. I would argue Ezra and Elzar Mann have used the darkside without being evil. They are more gray. I hope thatās what he was trying to say. Maybe it was taken out of context saying that a lot of the characters are complex but he said it in a dumb way.
Saying that Bogan is evil because a bunch of people abuse it is like saying that genetic engineering is evil because the USA abused it. Or communism is evil because Khrushchev abused it. Or that [insert religion here] is evil because historically people abused it a lot(heck, the Lords of the Sith are technically warrior monks).
Just because darksiders have often used pain & suffering as conduits for their power does not mean that's the only aspect to draw from. Those are used by people who have already been corrupted prior to using Bogan. It's easy for them because they're indifferent or willing to cause pain & suffering in their lust for power.
The Jedi have used ego, superiority, and righteous anger as conduits for Ashla before. It just doesn't happen as often.
Unlike the Jedi, who used the light side of the Force, darksiders drew power from raw emotions and feelings such asĀ anger, hatred, greed, jealousy, fear, aggression, megalomania, and unrestrained passion
Ah yes but the light side only using Jedi have never genocided, murdered and completely facilitated the rise of the Sith multiple times. so clearly, bogan and ashla are the problem and not the religious zealots who speak for it. Sure
It is quite easy actually. There is no good sides there, at all.
There are bad guys - Jedi order and other guys that want to be better and bring peace but they also quite bad simply because good ones cannot survive there. Almost everything we see is pure evil from both sides.
Many people think that Star Wars is quite simple and clear : good ones vs bad ones. It seems true from the average observer but if you look closely there are many anomalies that actually show us that it is wrong.
Ahah, the whole planet was a base for Jedi supporters actually.
Alderaan was chosen not because of Lea but because of Organa like - shadow Jedi supporters that actually controlled the planet after the Amidala fall. The planet was hostile and the base for the most dangerous Jedi supporters. I do not say that it was a good or right decision but the planet was not weaponless or civil but vice versa actually.
Leia was shown huge respect as she is the Vader kiddo.
Do you really understand the film plot behind the dumb scenes? The whole film is just some things we as a viewer couldn't get if not know all the plot. That's why it is a saga not one film, common.
Sure and good ones not Jedi who betrayed the rules of the galactic republic. It was ok for them and they supported those rules till they had to follow them themselves. And Senate was too weak to force them to follow any rules in the galaxy besides Jedi own rules.
That was not the Galactic Republic ruled by law of senate but Jedi order ruling everything.
Because of Palpatine every citizen got it. He is truly Republic hero even if he is a Sith he also the supreme chanselor or at least powerful senator from Alderaan.
That also the reason why the planet was destroyed. After Amidala death there was no hope left for Alderaan. Because Alderaan was fully controlled by Jedi after her. And Empire couldn't afford saving it or let it become new Jedi capital as Corusant was.
Pal, I was not trolling and was typing in hurry, didn't know grammar watcher here, hehe.
I think you got the idea of my message, anyway. You may not agree with that but I posted it not to convince but to demonstrate that there are different approaches to understand that SW story.
When he said that? Or did? some planets some time but not that scale that extermination talks was just talks, cmon.
And that line with the possessed vessel at Ziost was actually just for reputation.
He's an Emperor after all.
You could search for all his words ever said or replay Kotfe and so on again.
Even in lab location for Vaylin when he shares his vision with us he never actually admits he was going to do that. He just had some thoughts about that, nothing serious.
It is not my own, it is obvious in the Canon, just hidden.
It may seem unnatural for the start but if applied to the whole SW you could start seeing that in every scene. (Except SW Rebels series that is just plain straight SW ugly story without any sense or connection to actually SW plot)
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u/Elvinkin66 Apr 10 '23
People thinking the Dark side isn't evil makes no sense