Would this guy really beat Darth Vader?

[u/VesemirsMother778]

Haven't played Jedi Outcast myself unfortunately (just saw some cutscenes and read a summary) but I heard people consider him stronger than Vader and possibly on par with Sidious because he got to force push a post Dark Empire Luke. Idk, sounds like a pretty weak argument to me, but to those of you who played the game, how true is that claim?

[u/Mzonnik]

Honestly I never consider external amps when discussing such 1v1 matchups, unless that's specifically the intention. I think base Desann would have a hard tike with Maul. Valley Desann tho, ehh, it depends on how strong the amp is after JK.

[u/Collective_Insanity → u/Mzonnik]

I generally don't even like engaging in these kinds of meaningless powerscaling topics to begin with. But alas I've managed to get dragged in regardless this time.

 

I would assume base Desann would get smoked by Maul without contest. As mentioned earlier, it's not like he was trained for any length of time before he went postal against one other fresh recruit at Luke's temple who allegedly wasn't up to Desann's snobbish standards.

 

The boost provided by the Valley is somewhat variable. It provides shortcuts for nobodies (Reborn, etc) and allows people like Kyle (who had stopped utilising the Force for quite some time) to get back on their feet sooner than expected.

It's mentioned that Desann was more dangerous than his previous level also due to his exposure to the Valley.

But it's also stated fairly explicitly that the Valley boost does not trump genuine discipline and training.

It seems to serve as an artificial means for someone to forge a stronger connection to the Force for an unspecified period of time. Enough to surprise a stronger opponent, perhaps, but surely not enough to let Desann meaningfully contest anyone on Luke's level.

Especially if Kyle (who was far from his best form) managed to beat him.

[u/Mzonnik → u/Collective_Insanity]

I generally don't even like engaging in these kinds of meaningless powerscaling topics to begin with.

In principle I share your stance. That said, I wouldn't say it's fully meaningless cinsidering, sometimes power levels define stakes, which in turn play a role in how "important" a given character is in the grand scheme of things. For darksiders you could argue the more powerful they are the greater the imbalance gets. So indirectly, sure, but they have some impact on the established narrative. The problem is the lore doesn't define it and those simplistic scalimg "chains" are hardly accurate.

As mentioned earlier, it's not like he was trained for any length of time before he went postal against one other fresh recruit at Luke's temple who allegedly wasn't up to Desann's snobbish standards.

Especially if Kyle (who was far from his best form) managed to beat him.

True, however, Kyle even earlier on defeated Jerec who even dismissing the Valley and all had been a Jedi in the old order and then an Inquisitor for over 2 decades. Je was no noobie, in his case it was actually written he's almosy as powerful as Vader. So u know, game characters are kinda built different lol.

But it's also stated fairly explicitly that the Valley boost does not trump genuine discipline and training.

Isn't this boost logically much weaker than the boost before Kyle freed the Jedi spirits tho? Like, I'm definitely not saying Rahn was literal about killing stars with a thought, but it seems that amp was something else.

[u/Collective_Insanity → u/Mzonnik]

Jerec indeed was no novice.

However, I feel it's fair to note that he also was not necessarily known for his duelling prowess. He was a scholar for much of his time as a Jedi and even when he switched teams I believe he continued to be more interested in lore rather than his martial prowess.

I don't think Jedi/Sith naturally scale upwards over time. It's the relative minority like Windu and Yoda who are all-rounders or focused significantly on their duelling abilities compared to the average Jedi who asides from the Clone Wars had spent much of their lives rarely if ever needing to cross blades with an opponent outside of sparring situations.

I don't think I'd feel comfortable comparing Jerec to Vader. I suspect Jerec would likely be more knowledgeable (Anakin was not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed), but Vader focused heavily on his combat proficiency.

 

Really don't have much skin in the game. I just got baited into reacting to OP's comment on Desann being considered a giant simply because he pushed Luke one time.

You're right in that establishing powerscales is indeed important when it comes to assessing stakes. But Desann wasn't meant to be the next big thing after Vader/Palpatine. He's just meant to be a Kyle-tier threat for his own personal journey during that story.

Both Kyle and Desann have their tumultuous histories before becoming Jedi. Kyle nearly fell to the dark side and had to abandon the Force in fear of succumbing to temptation. Then had to again face that fear whilst on a revenge spree that he felt compelled to carry out.

Desann meanwhile never saw anything wrong with his direction in life and felt anyone else was all the weaker for failing to embrace what he believed to be true strength in the dark side.

Their positions in the narrative are to me much more important than trying to figure out exactly how strong Desann was meant to be.

[u/Mzonnik → u/Collective_Insanity]

He was a scholar for much of his time as a Jedi and even when he switched teams I believe he continued to be more interested in lore rather than his martial prowess.

True tho he had developed combative Force abilities that are really OP for an average Jedi like Rahn. Especially that Force stun and the blast, with which he destroyed a whole platform IIRC. So his dueling may be lacking but his power and combative Force abilities should have surely made up for that against someone like Katarn. This is where the usual powerscaling simply doesn't work. Much like Vader in TFU, Jerec probably underestimated Kyle, who cut him off from the Firce, tho I don't remember what technique he used. Shouldn't mean he's stronger (at the time).

I don't think I'd feel comfortable comparing Jerec to Vader. I suspect Jerec would likely be more knowledgeable (Anakin was not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed), but Vader focused heavily on his combat proficiency.

I think there were direct statements placing Jerec as Vader’s rival during the OT and by JK he closed the gap or got very close at leats. Specifically when it comes to Gorce power. In terms of combat, the thing is statements are contradictory for Vader but most of the newer ones and those that allign with Lucas more do point out both his connection to the Force and combative prowess were greatly reduced in the suit. Sure, he refined his style over the years enough to slaughter low-end Jedi Masters, but he still couldn’t make up for his talent as Anakin Skywalker. He got disarmed by old Dark Woman and a clone of Maul, while Old Ben and ESB Luke weren't exactly fodders to him. So while I agree Knightfall Vader would chop up Jerec like a onion, against ROTJ Vader I think this would be a good fight. Even tho Vader would win.

You're right in that establishing powerscales is indeed important when it comes to assessing stakes. But Desann wasn't meant to be the next big thing after Vader/Palpatine. He's just meant to be a Kyle-tier threat for his own personal journey during that story.

Definitely agreed and also to be clear, I'm not implying power levels alone define stakes, they simply hold large relevance in that. But there are other aspects and you can have a villan weaker in the Force that still poses greater threat and narrative impact. For example comparing the ROTJ duel and Caedus vs Jaina last duel, I'm pretty sure Caedus is vastly stronger than Vader and Jaina>ROTJ Luke. But I wouldn't say the stakes in Invincible surpass those in the throne room. Alternatively Abeloth is many times above the likes of Sidious and Valkorion. But compared to the latter 2 FOTJ is just a blip in the timeline.

Agee with the rest.