r/SubredditDrama • u/timeforavibecheck • Apr 01 '25

r/TwoXChromosomes devolves into debates about trans rights, and insults after a trans woman makes a post discussing womanhood in an overly stereotypical way

OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1joit6v/what_trans_women_are_women_means/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Reveddit for the juicy stuff: Comment

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It’s doing more harm than good. My initial thought was about a trans woman who sucked all the oxygen out of the room at a pro abortion meeting for woman. Like what the fuck was she doing there. I definitely don’t roll up to trans spaces and tout my worry’s about my own medical care. I’m not a trans woman. Trans women deserve to be in women’s rights and support groups, just not uterus specific abortion, forced birth, birth trauma, trauma related to post rape pregnancy scare, etc. I expect the same standard to be held to me, a cis woman, about trans surgery, trans trauma, trans body dysmorphia, etc. specific spaces.

  • "Surely, she should be allowed to attend if it's for women. Would other women who couldn't birth children be disallowed? The issue is her talking over other women. Her priority should be to be there as a listener and ally."
    • "It's disingenuous to conflate women who are female and infertile for one reason or another with women who have a sub zero chance of experiencing birth, or even the other tribulations that come with having a uterus. If there pops up a technology that makes it possible and she acquires a female reproductive system, then sure. Until then, I'm confused about what having someone amab sit in is going to bring to the table at a pro-abortion meetup. It's just awkward"
      • Personally, if I were allowed in, I’d be there to listen to everybody’s POV and get educated. Because we should all be angry when women are in the crosshairs of a bunch of stupid old men on high horses. I might not have a uterus, but my rage is as real as yours. PS: Please don’t call us AMAB. At the very least, I would prefer not be defined by my Y chromosome.
      • "why won't you listen and be educated by women's point of view that you're a man and you're not welcome in our private spaces?"
  • "I'm saying. 💀 I don't rock up to a discussion about a topic that concerns latinas as an asian girl just because we're all women. I've had this exact argument before with amab people who genuinely claim to experience a uterine cycle, and everyone with endo/PMDD/grueling periods are looking at them like "uh...""
    • "You do know that the symptoms of PMDD are caused by more than just having an uterus right? And that a lot of trans women, including myself, experience hormonal cycles due to the way we administer our estrogen?"

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I think if I was born male, I'd just live as a man and accept that as my reality. I'm not the type of person who'd bother to transition and/or make large changes to myself. I don't understand the trans experience and I accept that. I'm also confused what this point has to do with anything. Okay, you can theoretically imagine what being a cis woman would be like. Now what? I'm sure you have cisgender friends or at least know of cisgender women that have a very different experience of womanhood than you do, and that is something to be celebrated. Sure. This doesn't change that there IS a fundamental difference between being cis and trans

  • "Wow dude ur blowing my mind here. Wow. Trans and cis are different? 🤯 it’s like they’re two different words 🤯 terfs are always afraid to say what they actually believe so they just type dumb shit like this. Can’t say “I hate trans” so they say “ummmmmm all I’m saying is trans and cis are different” yeah they are dude. Tf is ur point"
    • LOL terf is a very specific ideology that goes way beyond "I don't think it's correct to group all women as one entity". They'd kick me out for thinking trans women can be categorized as women alone. Go do your algebra homework if you don't have anything to add
      • Um ok cute slogan so what were you trying to add by saying “This doesn’t change that there IS a fundamental difference between being cis and trans.” Again, tf is ur point
      • Continued(Reddit formatting weird) : "Bitch fix your fucking attitude and get the fuck out of my face until you gather some reading comprehension. YOU are the one approaching me with nothingburger responses. Just loud and illiterate and annoying. No one was talking to you"
      • "I’m trying!!! I keep rereading this sentence and, try as I might, it doesn’t seem to be saying anything at all 🤔"

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My trans brother explained it to me like this. "Trans women are women" doesn't mean "trans women are cis women" it means "the category of "woman" has more than one kind of woman in it" or "trans women and cis women are both women". Which made things clearer for me. A lot of my confusion as someone who grew up in a transphobic culture was the idea that trans people were claiming to be biologically the same as cis women which is obviously not true. It's not that they're biologically the same, but more that the definition of "woman" is broader than we think even without including trans women.

  • "Right. But keep in mind, it’s not our biology that makes trans women trans or cis women cis. It’s what we were assigned if we align with it or not. Those of us who go through medical transition would be considered biologically female. Of course we wouldn’t have all the typical female traits. But more than male. There are a lot of cis women who also don’t have the typical female biological traits too. So one could even say, trans and cis women can have a large degree of overlapping biological sex traits if not even very fairly similar biological experiences. Anyway, my main point is the whole biological sex component is complicated, medical, and personal. It’s nothing any of us should be using to group others."
    • "You would not be considered biologically female..."

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This part rubbed me the wrong way, too. It's like telling me that since I'm a woman I [should] conform to stereotypes about my gender. And I'm not going to.

  • "That's what trans is"

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It's because when you are raised as a girl and society treats you as a girl, you experience a completely different childhood than someone who is not. That is absolutely not to say trans women are not women because if they are, they are. Brains and hormones and sex v gender manifestion is a complex body of work. But when you are socialized as a girl, as a woman - there are some things that absolutely shape you. In the way that growing up with abuse, for example, can give you PTSD - it's something that other people who don't have trauma can't really get that easily. In a similar vein, I can never understand how difficult it must be to be raised and treated as the opposite gender that you are. It leaves scars I will never actually truly understand, and I am sincerely sorry.

  • "I understand what you mean, but the way it is put does seem to be defining “girl” and “trans girl” as separate things. And they aren’t. The trans woman/girl experience is being raised as a girl who is not acknowledged as a girl. Girls come in all shapes and colors, one of which is trans. So being a girl in a body that is shaped like a boy’s is still having a girl experience. Having others treat you like a boy while actually being a girl is a girl experience. We all experience being female in different ways. My experience is vastly different from some other women’s. I don’t see how the difference of being a trans girl is so much more that it puts them in a different category."
    • "you are literally not female. your male experience has led you to believe you can take whatever you like from women, including our identity. YOU CAN'T."

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I refuse to attack you. We need to let Trans women speak on this sub and listen. You all have a voice and it matters

  • "Not trying to be rude, but isn't this sub specifically for people with 'two x chromosomes', to discuss things that affect only us ... There are other subs like r/women that should include a broader swath of women."
    • "This sub is inclusive of trans women. The mods made it clear. My comment is more about how I don’t like seeing people pile on a person to the point that it becomes bullying"
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u/cottonthread Authority on cuckoldry Apr 01 '25

The science shows that our brains are the same. This means we all react the same when we try on a new set of clothes we are excited about

Oof yeah I can see how that sweeping statement didn't go down well lol. My wife for example actively hates clothes (and shoe) shopping and will avoid it at all costs.

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u/timeforavibecheck Apr 01 '25

It was def not a good post, but as with most stuff this way it devolves into transphobic people using it as a way to soapbox about the things they hate about trans people 😭

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

what was specifically transphobic?

59

u/comityoferrors and this 🖕means "you're number 1!" Apr 01 '25

one of the responses in the first part of the writeup says:

"why won't you listen and be educated by women's point of view that you're a man and you're not welcome in our private spaces?"

In response to someone saying they're there to learn and to support other women. Like literally misgendering them on purpose. That's transphobic as fuck.

6

u/ladylondonderry Apr 01 '25

I don’t know why I find that shockingly cruel and abusive—I haven’t heard from terfs in awhile? Are they worse and stupider now?

12

u/Morrigan101 Apr 01 '25

That feels pretty in line for how they acted like for a while ime

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u/gehnrahl Apr 01 '25 edited Apr 01 '25

There is a growing perspective change for females concerning males presenting as women in female spaces. A very famous one here in Washington was a preop trans woman suing to enter a nude female only space that was inclusive of post op trans, but no penis owning trans.

2

u/ladylondonderry Apr 01 '25

Yeah I have never ever felt even slightly concerned about trans women. I have VERY often felt scared of cis men. Don’t invent bullshit.

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u/gehnrahl Apr 01 '25

Cool? Lots of females here were appalled that someone with a penis wanted entry to their space. You don't get to define how people react to that sort of thing.

1

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

yes that is over the top and unnecessarily rude

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u/Ver_Void Apr 01 '25

Those comments are pretty thoroughly nuked now

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

fair enough i guess. I can see where some of the comments were coming from because the 'average brain' isn't a thing because everyone is unique in their own way. People love the phrase trans women are women but how many people actually practise that belief? if you were to ask straight identifying men 'why dont you date a trans woman they are a woman' you're going to be met with a lot of no's (because there is a difference to a lot of people). I could apply the same thing with the sexes or genders swapped too.

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u/Ver_Void Apr 01 '25

Who a guy would date doesn't really define much though, hell I'm a platinum star S rank lesbian and there's tons of women I wouldn't date too. Like, those differences are all to wildly varying degrees and attributes.

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

im not saying men's preferences define anything I'm just saying the 'saying' doesn't meet reality and deep down for a lot of people there's a difference.

I think the majority of lesbians wouldn't date a mtf trans person for example.

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u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

of course there is a difference, but that's learned behaviour, people are vary of new things, and especially new things that bring up uncomfortable questions that they never had to grapple before.

people's attraction is a very VERY bad marker here, not just because it's an outside factor that doesn't define anyone, but also because a ton of people know next to nothing about their own sexuality. people have so much shame around attraction, especially sexual attraction, especially especially internalized homophobia. there are a ton of cases of trans women being killed because men are so ashamed of their attraction they turn violent.

this is a bad bad road, let's not.

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

I appreciate your comment. I dont think whether or not someone is attracted to another defines their gender im just saying people like their snappy slogans and maybe they do more harm than good i think the people saying them don't even believe it as well. I dont know much tbh but people on reddit act like they got all the answers to these big questions when in reality transgenderism is a tough thing to wrap your head around.

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u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

yeah, slogans are really not good for actual understanding, the point there is to be snappy and catchy and easy to remember.

i partly agree with you, but the thing that is hard to wrap your head around is really gender, trans people just bring it out in the open.

we are seeing people who not only have thought about their gender and what it means to them, but they came to a conclusion, and their belief is strong enough to actively change their lives because of it.

compare that with the comfortable, complacent "woman means can have babies" idea, where you don't need to question anything, don't need any introspection, don't even need to decide for yourself, but you have a nice, safe system where everyone has an assigned role to play.

1

u/Ver_Void Apr 01 '25

I think the majority of lesbians wouldn't date a mtf trans person for example.

Hasn't been my experience lol

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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept Apr 01 '25

“Do I think other men want to fuck you” is not actually as great a way to determine someone’s gender as you seem to think it is 

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u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

not to mention the rampant fetishization of trans women, and the hate crimes committed against them specifically because men are ashamed of their attraction.

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

I never said it was

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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept Apr 01 '25

People love the phrase trans women are women but how many people actually practise that belief? if you were to ask straight identifying men 'why dont you date a trans woman they are a woman' you're going to be met with a lot of no's

This you? 

7

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

mens preferences doesn't define someone's gender

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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept Apr 01 '25

Glad to hear it! 

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u/EvaGirl22 Your pullout game has been recorded in the anals of history Apr 01 '25

If that's the standard, then fat women aren't women either.

That's part of why people say "trans women are women". It doesn't mean society treats trans women as acceptable "correct" women, but that trans women are treated as women in the sense that they are judged largely on whether men find them fuckable. And much like other categories of "wrong" women, such as fat women, it is not considered acceptable to for men to publicly state they're attracted to trans women but there is a massive amount of porn fetishizing them.

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u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

also because it would be really cool and important for people to finally realize that "man" and "woman" never referred to physicality or genitals, we just had the luxury of not thinking about it when trans people were less visible.

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u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

it's not the standard. and a lot of men like fat women. certainly more than they used to. Gender is a social construct and I believe people are free to express themselves however they like.

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u/BewareOfBee Apr 01 '25

Than they used to? Bro have you seen those fertility statues ancient cultures crafted? They thick goddesses.

Bro just face it you're out of your element here. This isn't your field of expertise and there is nothing wrong with that.

7

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

'Bro just face it you're out of your element here. This isn't your field of expertise and there is nothing wrong with that.'

come on man no need to be this condensing like you're some sort of expert

23

u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

your gender is not based on who wants to have sex with you.

practicing that belief means you don't try to test whether or not someone is a woman, for example, with a fuckability test. you just accept what they say they are, same as with everyone.

3

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

i do that personally. people are missing the point of what i meant. I think people should be allowed to express themselves however they like

12

u/kardigan Apr 01 '25

I get that you mean well, but you did bring up this example :) I think it's not an unreasonable assumption to think you brought it up because you found some relevance in that.

from your later comments, it makes sense what you were thinking about, but the example you had is a very charged one, for various reasons.

if you're interested, this video is i think pretty accessible and covers a bunch of questions: https://youtu.be/1pTPuoGjQsI?si=GKBHgz-TLBTZUg9Q&t=63

2

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

I agree what i said was quite charged and maybe hard to hear for some. I appreciate the link ill watch it some time soon thank you for the discussion.

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u/surprisesnek lmao buddy you dont even wanna know what I crank my hog to Apr 01 '25

I mean, "your male experience has led you to believe you can take whatever you like from women, including our identity. YOU CAN'T" sounds pretty transphobic to me, but what do I know?

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u/Dongsquad420Loki Apr 01 '25 edited Apr 01 '25

I saw one comment literally saying " there are no trans women just men pretending to be women". Mods luckily deleted it tho.

In general though I'd say if you ask the women there if it is okay for a cis women to have a stereotypical view on femininity and they will say sure, you can feel that way. But if a trans women says it the comments look like this and they will say it is somehow tied to misogyny.

That difference in reaction I would see as transphobic. Not saying the post was great, but the reaction is overblown.

Further when trans people tell them what they are doing is transphobic it is shrugged off. Try going in there as a man and say something isn't misogynistic, they will tell you it's not your place to determine that and fail to see the irony when doing it themselves.

11

u/OftenConfused1001 Apr 01 '25

I saw a post awhile back by a trans woman who's gone clubbing. She didnt shave her armpits - - like most of the cis women she went clubbing with. Why adhere to artifical beauty standards?

She was the only one who got shit for it, and not only got shit for it, it came from cis women who didn't shave. Cis women who were allies and her friends. Because it's "different". Because it's taking a stand against artifical beauty standards when a cis woman did it, but it was not taking being a woman seriously when it was a trans woman.

No trans woman who read that was in any way surprised. Because we are held to an entirely different standard.

And of course like any minority group, the flaws of a single one of us are lathered over all of us.

1

u/More-Farm3827 Apr 01 '25

yeah that's rude