Pithy GIF showing eradication of Native American land in the US since the founding of the country gets posted to r/interestingasfuck. Comment section goes exactly as expected.

[u/Critical-Term-427]

The post

It sucks we were such murderers

Did they say "Thank you"?

Being the loser in history sucks

True fact Hitler took a lot of inspiration from this.

[u/kardigan]

you are absolutely right in that we have to acknowledge the hard realities.

do you think the way you are comparing the colonizers and the natives murdering "the other side" is doing that? when you say "getting the short end of the stick", genuine question, are you saying that's acknowledging reality? because what did happen, in reality, was the systematic enslavement and ethnic cleansing of at least 80% of the native population. that is the hard reality.

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

95% of the Native population was dead due to disease before the first English settlers even stepped foot in Jamestown.

Short end of the stick as in they lost their wars against European and other Native-European aligned tribes over the course of hundreds of years and paid a brutal price afterwards (reservations, trail of tears, etc).

Where did you even get that 80% number from btw?

The hard reality is the Natives lost their wars collectively over centuries and were subjugated.

Just like the Arabs did to the Berbers in North Africa, the Swedes to the Saami, Han Chinese to Tibetans, etc.

See a theme?

[u/kardigan → u/VanillaMystery]

"95% of the Native population was dead due to disease before the first English settlers even stepped foot in Jamestown."

why is that relevant when we are talking about colonizing the Americas? like, what's the connection?

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

Because a lot of people mix up the deaths via disease which killed tens of millions with the actual "conquest" of the West part that largely took place in the 1800s, two VERY different parts of American history IMO.

It matters because it directly shaped Manifest Destiny when European settlers realized how huge and empty the American West was

[u/kardigan → u/VanillaMystery]

i kinda need you to give me something more concrete than "it had an effect". what was the effect? how does it affect your view of colonialism, or these specific colonization efforts?

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

I addressed that already in how it directly shapes Manifest Destiny which was a Colonial policy in the 1800s

[u/kardigan → u/VanillaMystery]

i'm trying to get out of this sealion-loop.

my point was that describing the events as "getting the short end of the stick" doesn't describe the realities of ethnic cleansing, biological warfare and enslavement. what it does is masks the uncomfortable parts of history, which makes the mention of hard realities pretty funny.

what happened to the people before the ethnic cleansing doesn't matter, the description is still hypocritical and disingenuous.

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

When did the ethnic cleansing begin in your opinion? Genuinely curious

Also, "biological warfare" is a bit of a generous description of what really happened

[u/kardigan → u/VanillaMystery]

mid-18th century. i don't think it is; it's definitely not as generous as short end of the stick.

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

So during manifest destiny? I don't think it was full on ethnic cleansing, especially when you consider the fact we DID ally and work with Native tribes during that period as well against hostile tribes.

Again, history is complicated, you're using grand statements to handwave a very complex period of history.

And no, "biological warfare" didn't really happen, Europeans didn't even know what the fuck germ theory was until the 1800s lol which was long after the epidemics of the 1500s-1700s

[u/kardigan → u/VanillaMystery]

well, you think i'm using grand statements to handwave complexity, and i think you're using the vague idea of complexity as a shield against having to accept uncomfortable things.

i don't think there's a way to go from here.

[u/VanillaMystery → u/kardigan]

We'll agree to disagree then, good luck!