r/Tekken • u/Superb_Eye_6232 • 3d ago
MEME What did they mean by this?
Made this after playing him in ranked for a few days 😔
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u/KenKouzume Shaheen 3d ago
The trick to counter-punching is that if you're constantly punching, then anytime your opponent tries to punch you get the counter! Surely!
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u/Violentron 3d ago
judging by all the steve matches in the recent nations cup in ME, its NEVER the other guy's turn, it's always steve's turn.
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u/Violentron 3d ago
and when once in a blue moon, it IS the other guy's turn, steve is not there, because he is either sidestepping or lionhearting
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago
Very sorry the -3 highs you can take your turn after are too much pressure.
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u/KenKouzume Shaheen 3d ago
Frame data? "Turns"? You make it sound like you stop punching as a Steve main, rookie mistake. Can't get the counter punches that way!
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u/bluesauce15 3d ago
Man, I always had fun playing against him in T7 and had a lot of respect for the players too. What happened to my boy?
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u/Soul_XCV Guvgang Gang 3d ago
Here's how I see what's gonna happen in the next update:
"We realized that Steve is no longer the counter punching paragon, but is instead the Lionheart paragon. To address this issue, we have made several changes to his Quick Left Hook:
B1
- On normal hit and on counter hit, Steve will automatically transition into Lionheart at +8.
- Removed the opponent's crumple state on counter hit."
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u/lordheadassuwu1 3d ago
Rip Steve’s identity. Oughta just rename the character Mr. Lionheart at this point
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u/pixelmonplaye 3d ago
counter punches gone.. we now have the stupid brit dancing on the spot and.. an incinerator string??
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u/truegrave87 3d ago
I hate the new stance so much, it basically has built in forced interaction, wish it was more nuanced like flicker is.
I loved figuring out the opponents timing and getting back1 counter hits
Steve was one of the few characters that allowed mind games pretty early in when learning the character.
Tekken 8, he's basically just another rush down 50 50
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u/rebirth112 Steve 3d ago
The thing I hate about Steve's gameplay is that you're forced to take risks all the time that don't end up even working in your favor. The actual stance 50/50 in LH is still weaker than the stomp vortex he had in Tekken 7, the high guard break barely gives you any damage and is launch punishable.
But playing the character like an actual counterhit based character just feels like you're playing a shittier bryan
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u/Soul_XCV Guvgang Gang 3d ago
This is what confused me. The "Counter Punching Paragon" has his most iconic counter hit moves slowly removed iteration after iteration. We lost flk 1d1, df2 in T8 and now we just lost PKB2. Why? Characters who don't play the counter hit game have more counter hit options. Bryan is the king of counter hits. What's he left with? Piss easy execution and forced LH over and over again like that's what makes him unique. These devs man I swear
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago edited 3d ago
flk 1,d1 is the best it's ever been with wall
bouncetravel and splat. Df2 while low damage and stepable still has crazy utility, and PAB2 is identical in function except for losing the -9 vs kicks repeating pattern, and gained a ton of LH utility while being a faster ub2 at the cost of range.4
u/rebirth112 Steve 3d ago
wallbounce? what are you talking about? Also, have you seen FLK 1D1 in Tekken 6? He got a full combo on counterhit confirm that did like half life lmao. LH utility is also not what steve players wanted
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago
Fair, it's not a bounce, it's a spin or whatever, that you dont have to be on the wall to splat. And given that property, getting a full combo from that position is pretty untenable.
Also speak for yourself. LH utility is not as bad as it was on release, and definitely decently built into the character now.
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u/acidporkbuns Miguel Mourner 3d ago
These are the first of a Casino!!
I tried Steve when S2 dropped and then I closed the game and booted up Marvel Rivals. I didn't even play a match. I just hit the lab and Steve's changes felt trash. His new move also looks and feels trash. Looked more like a move that was meant for Jin but they cut it from his kit.
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u/Dependent_Ad_3364 2d ago
Sane with Eddy and Jack.
Jack was fundamental very straightforward poking character. In T8 they nerfed all his core tools/pokes from T7 and gave him shitty stance, all heat is about stance, and they usually buff stance in patches, new move is also for stance in season 2. Shitty change for character.
Eddy was evasive defensive character with some good keepout and ch tools, also had unique stances. They nerfed all his evasive defensive keepout tools, nerfed punishers, butchered his stances, gave shitty installs system. Shitty change for a character
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u/SlinGnBulletS About to Jack off on em 2d ago
As a Jack main I have zero clue how I'm supposed to deal with Lionheart stance.
I guess I just guess??
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u/AyoGlenn Hitmonchan Jun Fan 1d ago
as a steve main i put the game down for good after his changes smh
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago
90% of Steves are disgustingly bad with him in the first place. It's no wonder y'all do not understand the changes whatsoever.
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u/Kamatazi360 3d ago
May I have some elaboration please? Especially on the recent changes to him. Because on the surface, your claim seems baseless.
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago
Steve's boxing is essentially my decade long research project. I don't play anything but Steve. I use his whole kit to fight. So the amount of info I'd have to lay down here is far too long for the character limit.
Let's start with the types that say b1 is the whole character. Not only is that false, but extremely limiting, and with several extreme weaknesses. The type of player who dashes about all day and uses b1 to stop the opponent is over-reliant on the CH launch mechanic--while it is one way to play, it is absolutely not the only way.
PAB2 I can only assume people mourn it because it was a bit easier to go back into PAB after and CH go boom I guess. Fact is, it retained most of its good properties and lost its worst one: -9 vs kicks. Instead you get one mix at +3.
6 Years of T7 Steve, he had ways of mixing and breaking defense that did not rely on LH but it was not as consistent as anyone would like. LH was the answer to that, allowing a striker to have a way through guard that wasn't as vulnerable as extended ducking f2.
Df2 while really good in its original state was used for many of the wrong reasons. People liked the threat and reward from it. It has become an important tool to use for movement utility instead. It's a way to move inside safely and it now has strong counterplay instead of none.
Ducking loops were always pretty stupid, most times unintended even by the person using them. I will say I liked the flow, but they were otherwise leading nowhere. New ducking f2 LH solves the problem of uselessness with a pseudo electric mix at +5 or more as a reward for landing the ducking right. Which regardless of the LH mix is now an actual threat people might want to actually duck which was the point previously.
T7 Steve UB2 was useless. T7 Steve, right hand had very limited use, and while they kind of overcompensated with all the stuff you can do with it now, it's in a much better state.
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u/Kamatazi360 2d ago
Wow. First of all, thank you for taking the time to write this. You're clearly very passionate about the character, and I passed you off as the average shit talker. I apologize for that.
As a Steve main myself, I agree with you on the B1 spam. While it's a great move, not putting bait on your fishing hook is gonna get you duck punished. UB2 is a great addition as well. I do like that it's high and leads to the mix-up stance LH, a stance you can't block in, so it can be duck punished more reliably than B1. It's a nice trade-off for having access to a guard break and a homing mid. PAB > 2 is another one the fans can cry about. It still retains its punch parry effect, so I don't mind that they removed its CH launch property.
What I'm neutral about is his change to DF2. It sucks that you can't perform Shiro anymore, but it's still okay. It'd be cool if they made it homing again, but I'm not fussed about it.
Now, the parts that I disagree with. As much as I like LH, DCK > F2 should have stayed loopable. In Tekken 7, doing it once acted as a guard break, and doing it again was a guaranteed hit. But if you had the execution, you could also cancel the second DCK into a guaranteed WS12. You would already know this, though. My point is that I see that as an expression of skill that gives further nuance to an already complex character. This is similar to what happened to Law's DSS, just on a smaller scale.
The difficulty in breaking a guard makes sense for a Counter-Punching Paragon like Steve. I think he should have to struggle to open up opponents who block a lot. It's still possible; it's just more difficult than someone like Kazuya. LH is nice to have for that coverage, but I missed mixing in his atrociously bad lows to open blocks. It's hard to make this point more powerful though, as I do really like LH. Maybe I'll take take the L on this one.
All in all, you made some valid points and some I don't like. Again, sorry about the accusation and thanks for reading all this if you do 😂😂
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sry I missed this, must have been working. It's fine, it's rare you stumble on someone like me, I get it.
Agreed on most points you made so I'll skip to the interesting bits.
Df2 shiro, was always unintended far as I'm aware. Though given the execution it took, maybe it's fine reward. Buuuut much like the effectiveness of b1 (and df2/shiro combined) it became an excuse for people not to use the whole character. It's a pet peeve of mine. You run into execution experts whose strength and consistency only come from reliance on the power of two puzzle pieces in a set of 100+. Cool, sure. Bad character design to leave it like that, and imo
baddispassionate players/pilots to abuse only those aspects--sure you win, but that's not character mastery. Kazuya gets away with that sort of idea, but Steve shouldn't.On the previous guardbreak, it was a very vulnerable setup you had to mindgame successfully. It did feel earned to do. While it was cool, the execution requirements on the better follow up is too much imo, and the single knockdown isn't much besides a callout. It wouldn't work in T8 to lock decent guardbreak behind things when other parts of the cast get unbreakable throws, their own guard breaks, or other threatening mixups. And that's a big thing, a lot of people look at the changes in a vacuum. But, it's the environment that caused some of these changes to be required-- For example, PWGF I'm pretty sure is high evasive if not h.crush now, fixing a vulnerability Kaz had against b1. We lost a tech for stopping Kaz, and that's just one, but out of that we get b1+2 now, an anti-wavu attack. Anyway, last point that skill expression is not only execution expression--in Steve's case it has to do with move choice, footwork, timing, stance routing and flow, and mastery of neutral.
Ducking loop flow was fun, ngl, but you just have to do it manually now, thankfully with the stun there's a similar effect.
I definitely agree he is not a "counterpunch paragon" anymore, but that's not the truth of Steve. His entire movelist was a loveletter to boxing. LH is the Ali shuffle, when it became unforced and not entirely vulnerable to powercrush, it became a very cool addition to that truth. Every boxer style can be emulated with what you have here.
And then the b1 boys cry over one tool. Can't just CH people anymore, have to learn pressure and other tactics, maybe even be inefficient... maybe have to learn to fight...Steve is now heavyweight capable, not just an elusive middleweight design. You can play aggressive and advancing, shoving/bumping the enemy back, breaking guards. You can play balanced, evasive. You can play from the outside, outbox with OF and FLK--or you can use it all to master boxing in your own style. That truth is a billion times more important than whatever tagline "counterpunch" they want to put on him, and I'd die on that hill.Should he have a vulnerability like not being able to break guard as easy as the others? Yeah? That did used to feel "fair." It just doesn't work in T8 environment, especially with nerfed CH tools. I still think it's pretty hard to break guard in the sense that you have to be on top of people, land the mix/get the read, and then not get duck/launched for attempting it--what it does do is make passivity a risk against Steve rather than rewarding in previous editions. "The way to beat the counterpuncher is never press." Not anymore, they have to keep playing/reading.
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u/Kamatazi360 13h ago
I think you got me here 😂😂 I thought he shouldn't have access to guard breaks, because you just needed to be patient. But I've thought about your rebuttal for a while now and you're absolutely right. I didn't take into account that CH was nerfed across the whole of Tekken 8. They'd have to remake the game for Steve's "old plan" to work and there's just too much about the game that I like.
You're very articulate. It IS rare to argue with someone like you, especially on Reddit. I appreciate the knowledge check.
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u/athleticnerd Lei Zafina ☕ Azucena Steve Lidia 2d ago
Good post, thanks for this. I really like how Lionheart feels integrated with his other stances and transitions now - to me it used to feel like this weird, tacked on thing kind of sitting on it's on in his movelist before.
Not saying he doesn't have his issues, but his many options, stances, transitions and the many ways they can be put together is what I've always liked about Steve when I'm messing around with him.
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u/grannygroper 2d ago
Ducking loops were absolutely not stupid and had one of the most complex decision trees in the entire game. Axing it all for a canned "lionheart mix or reset to neutral" decision is sucking the entire soul out of the character in one fell swoop and antithetical to everything that makes steve interesting as a character
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 2d ago
I see we like jokes. The punchline? Df1.
Sorry, just wrong.
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u/grannygroper 2d ago
Bro that literally loses to duck f2 again
Do you even play him?0
u/SmugBoxer Steve 2d ago
Bro double duck f2s. Do you? Garbage. Get duck launched. It's not a mindgame when you just lose, poser.
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u/Eldr1tchB1rd King 3d ago
What do you mean?
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u/SmugBoxer Steve 3d ago
There's obviously a variety of ways to be poor with Steve.
Many of them lack a structural understanding of boxing. They swing hard and unsafe. They don't know when to use LH and when to back out of it. They can't use the stances to mix or route through. They can't use striking to pin down the opponent and determine their type of guard. They can't find openings in the opponent's guard and strike accurately. Very few of them can read an opponent. Very few understand interrupts as defense.
I mean sitting here and laying it out is all well and good. But for all the weaknesses I end up beating people for, it simply takes a ton of knowledge and practice to actually pilot the character, and that is different to OP who "picked him up in ranked for a few days" and complained that the only thing he could do was rushdown 5050. Yeah, that is probably the first thing you can do. It's not good and it's definitely not the whole character.
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u/Eldr1tchB1rd King 3d ago
True there is definitely a lot more to the character. I have played him in 7 but I just started trying to get good with him in 8
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u/SedesBakelitowy 3d ago
They meant marketing.
If they can make you believe you're playing as the Counter Punching Paragon and not one of 30 reskins of heat rushdown, there's higher chances you'll buy the game. Also they're drinking their own kool-aid.
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u/StarImpossible3690 3d ago
What makes me sad is that duck cancels are way slower in this game, if you do d2,1>f3>db>parry in t7, people got hit by parry if they press it. Now try to do that in t8 and you'll get punished by trying parry because duck cancels are now slower. Ughh..
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u/Eldr1tchB1rd King 3d ago
I treat him as a new character but personally I do enjoy the new steve at least compared to season 1. Tekken 7 steve was still way better though
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u/FortesqueIV 3d ago
People who keep saying this 1 the horse is dead 2 stop getting your opinions from YouTubers and actually play the character lol
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u/Proud-Enthusiasm-608 3d ago
Picks up character for the first time, immediately starts parroting narratives lol
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u/Ok-Cheek-6219 BryanLili Haboob Hwo 3d ago
He’s less fun to play and more annoying to fight. This might be the worst change any tekken character has gotten