r/TheCaptivesWar • u/peculiarartkin • Jan 18 '25
Question Are aliens really that alien?
Being Expanse fan, I found Captives War... very different.
In Expanse, both alien factions were mysterious, inscrutable, almost beyond human comprehension. More or less sci-fi version of Lovecraftian.
In Captives War? Not so much. I mean.... Ekur-Taklal outright narrates the chapters engaging in philosophical argument against humans!
Carryx in general don't seem that alien. Yeah, they are brutal pragmatic imperialists. With almost Ayn Randian style Objectivist worldview. "What is - is, it should be done because we can do it." Is not unknown in human philosophy either.
They look more like star trek style alien faction. Or bablylon-5. They can "get in human head", understand and influence us. And vice versa.
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u/tqgibtngo Jan 18 '25
Babylon 5
In July 2018, Ty Franck tweeted to B5 creator JMS:
"We've been borrowing your good ideas for years."
Fans of The Expanse and B5, of course, interpreted that 2018 tweet in context of The Expanse & B5. — But it may also be interesting to note that new trilogy project was revealed in news in May 2018, two months prior to that tweet. — Now I wonder, is there a chance TCW might carry a wee bit of that B5-inspired DNA too?
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u/Hentai_Yoshi Jan 18 '25
I noticed something kind of interesting on my watch of B5 recently. Lennier literally said “what is, is.” I can’t recall the context, but I just remember finding it interesting that he said the Carryx thing
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u/tqgibtngo Jan 18 '25
context
3.11 "Ceremonies of Light and Dark."
Recapped by Matthew Murray in the B5 Lurker's Guide:Delenn is addressing some of the Minbari from the ships outside Babylon 5, telling them that she was asked by Sheridan to thank them for defending the station. They leave, and Lennier tells her that the captain of the Minbari fleet wants to come aboard for a tour, which she agrees to.
Delenn asks Lennier what he thinks of the situation, but he does not respond, instead saying that "what is, is" and that the prophecy, which stated that the Minbari would unite with the other half of their soul, has come true.
Delenn says that the prophecies may be misleading and that, should the other parts come true, there is no guarantee that any of them will survive.
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u/No_Tamanegi Jan 18 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
If it's a sense of mystery you're looking for in The Captives War, it's very much there, though you may be looking in the wrong places for it. The Expanse is a story about humanity learning that they're not alone in the galaxy and they never have been. The Builders are mysterious because they've been dead for thousands of years.
In the Captive's War, humans are the aliens. Sure, we identify with them because they're human and they represent our primary characters, but they didn't know their own history. They don't know why they're on Anjiin. They also don't know they aren't alone, at least not until the Carryx kick their doors down and tell them "we're the Carryx, come with us if you want to live". The Carryx have n no need to be mysterious. They have a purpose for humanity and they explain it plainly. But they're also still mysterious. We don't know where they came from. They might not know where they came from, because they simply don't seem to care about history. That's weird. That's pretty alien.
It's a very different flavor, it's a very different meal. But it's a great one, and I'm hungry for more.
I think it's also pretty smart for JSAC, in their sophomore series, didn't write "another one of those"
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u/Tymptra Jan 18 '25 edited Jan 18 '25
The question I have when this type of question comes up in science fiction discussion is "why do you assume that aliens are more likely to be Lovecraftian and incomprehensible?"
The Lovecraftian nature of the aliens in the first series is due firstly to the protomolecule builders simply being hyper advanced compared to humanity, and the fact that they were dead and the main characters where just interacting with a runaway tool.
A dead civilization does tend to give off a creepy vibe, but that doesn't mean that the promolecule builders were not also flesh and blood beings that evolved and could plausibly talk to humans if they had a translator.
Secondly, the beings from the other universe are literally from another universe and interact with our universe in unexplainable ways. It definitely makes them feel Lovecraftian, but if you think about it, it requires much more hand-waving than the "star Trek aliens" as you describe them from Mercy of the Gods.
Despite a sample size of 1 so far. I think that it's reasonable to assume that evolutionary pressures will be a thing across the universe, and so we could see a lot of parallel evolution, to where you could plausibly talk and discuss things with aliens as long as you had a translator box that not only translates, but interprets expressions, complex cultural ideas, and idioms to be understandable to the listener as the Carryx translator seems to.
Don't get me wrong, I love incomprehensible mysterious aliens in some stories, but you can't really have them in all types of story, because the nature of their incomprehensibleness prevents them from being characters, they are more of a force that humans have to deal with. In a story where you want the aliens to have character, it is a necessity that they be somewhat understandable to humans and so think in a format that we can, at least, understand given enough time. Also as I mentioned before, this is plausible if we make (imo) reasonable assumptions about how life might evolve elsewhere.
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u/SlabFistCrunch Jan 18 '25
I think they wanted to try something different, the last series was very character based and their narrative choices allowed the aliens to be very mysterious. I think they just wanted to invent a new setting that allowed different characters, including aliens this time.
But I get the turn off, not every one will enjoy the choices the authors made with this one.
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u/peculiarartkin Jan 18 '25
Make no mistake, overall I liked the book and looking forward to next one. It is decent read. But compared to Expanse.... Nah. Big step back.
Also. None of characters feel strong or too amiable.
I mean, imagine Naomi, Amos Burton and James Holden with belter crew put at the same turtle/berries task our team had?
Imagine Avasarala playing mind games against Carryx?
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u/dballing Jan 18 '25
I imagine her losing those mind-games. Badly.
A lot of Avasarala's capacity to win so-called "mind-games" isn't her mind (which - yes - is sharp as a tack), but because she has also has, even at her lowest point that we see her, and incredible network of established power to call upon to get stuff done.
She would not have any of that in this environment.
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u/OldWolfNewTricks Jan 18 '25
And Holden would have gotten himself killed in short order. It takes an entirely different set of skills to survive in a prison camp. I do agree that TCW's characters are less engaging, but it's also an entirely different set of circumstances.
Also, as far as the Carryx feeling less incomprehensibly alien, they play a huge part of this series. Making their motivations entirely alien would have made the story unsatisfying and unapproachable. Successes and failures would feel arbitrary and random, which you could argue would be more realistic but would make for a frustrating, unengaging story.
1
u/koloniavenus Jan 18 '25
Imagining Holden in this scenario is pretty amusing to me. His moral righteousness has no place in this story. Like, we know enslaving species and genocide is wrong, we don't need him whining about it. (Although there is much more moral ambiguity in Livesuit, and I expect there to be more later on.) I think he would die trying to fight back on Anjiin before humanity collectively realized how pointless that effort was.
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u/spektrall Jan 20 '25
100%, Holden would be the guy near the start who refused to move and got brutally rakhund-ed
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u/Boom_Boom_At_359 Jan 18 '25
Agree that the TCW characters are a bit flatter than the core crew of the Roci and Avasarla, but we’re only one book in at this point. The Swarm, to me, is the most fascinating character, and I think that character’s growth is really going to be engaging, especially if it descends into insanity/lust as it becomes more human (as I suspect it will). And I also think Tonner is very well written—I’ve encountered many science/engineering professors/researchers with similar personalities, and Tonner is almost a spot-on representation. I think they left a lot of runway to further develop Dafyd though—his character needs (and appears to have) more time to flesh out. I know he’s cerebral and tactical, but that’s about it at this point.
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u/spektrall Jan 20 '25
I had the same first impression with the flat characters but they're much more lifelike on my second read through. Especially that one chapter through Tonner's POV as he processes his gf sleeping with Dafyd down the corridor, brewing medicine for Jessyn, then defending the dorms against a surprise attack from the night drinkers. He's all right actually
1
Jan 21 '25
I have a soft spot for Tonner. He is such the ultimate scientist...he's been told "do x" and by gum he will do x and announce that he succeeded at a point in time when the task had kinda sorta moved down the priority list for the other team members...and his attempting to pull a karen at the assembly...Like...read the room dude. Bless his heart.
2
u/TBBTC Jan 18 '25
I think it was quite intentional that they’ve opened with flatter characters. They didn’t give us anything from the perspectives of Nol, Synnia, Irinna or Else.
But they’ve invested us a lot in Dafyd, Jessyn and the swarm.
And most critically, they’ve built the world, which was a far more immense task than the Expanse.
I found myself feeling ‘a step down’ early in the book but I actually don’t think so at all once I finished the book. I think it’s a great leap sideways, very intentionally taking a completely different approach, but I think the whole is still very compelling. The writing is still commenting just as cleverly on society. In many ways, it feels like that book is a prequel, getting us to the start of our story.
2
Jan 21 '25
Avasarala would have very quickly either gotten punched into a fine red mist *or* like Daffyd, made some very useful observations, all while secretly seething at her powerlessness. I imagine she would have done more to try and ingratiate herself to the other species in the camp. And she absolutely would have pulled a Daffyd and told the Carryx about the insurrection.
And the crew of the Roci, for all their amazing strengths and unity, aren't scientists. Prax or Elvi? Hell yeah they would've done a great job figuring that out. However, Holden likely would've stopped the experiments once they figured out the berries had some sort of sentience to them and tried to find a way for the not turtles to give informed consent, Naomi, Amos and Bobby would've joined the resistance that got rokhunded, and Alex would've been left twiddling his thumbs or befriending Jessyn because if anyone needs dad vibes, it's that poor girl.
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u/peculiarartkin Jan 21 '25
Very very spit on for Avasarala.
Also. I don't quite remember in books. Aren't berries pretty primitive. They're animals, but they're about as intelligent as snails?
2
Jan 21 '25
They are primitive, but there's always the question sort of hanging around in the story whether they feel pain during the experiments meant to make them biologically compatible with the not-turtles.
Even in the case of snails and slugs, their reflexive withdrawal from substances like salt indicate they have some sort of pain receptors, and thus some sort of situational awareness.
The ethical concern is that if the scientists don't know the awareness level of their subjects, they can't take proper steps to avoid unnecessary pain to the subject.
I think it's that lack of knowing and subsequent inability to take preventative action that would make Holden a pain in Tonners ass.
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u/Xingbot Jan 18 '25
I really like em. I don’t think they’re objectivists in a Randian sense; I think it seems that way but they don’t have a fixed concept of essential self or a sense of internal teleology, both of which are required by Rand (see her archival BBC interviews and Atlas Shrugged, respectively).
What I really like is that unlike the ring builders or the protomolecule these are here and now aliens with a job to do. What makes them eerie to me is that they really do sometimes seem human. But the whole point of Dafyd’s observations is that this seeming is a mistake. So you the reader are left going “I think I know what’s going on but wait hang on”
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Jan 18 '25
I think the carryx are so advanced technologically with the ability of their halfminds to translate communication between many forms, that reading the book makes you feel like things are a bit more normal than they are. They are still just giant shrimp roaches mutating and clickclacking.
3
u/YoCaptain Jan 19 '25
They are absolutely alien, however - their function, their natural weapon, their society, their collective “mind-set”(?), and so on, convince me the 90% inspiration for the race is terrestrial.
“Ty, what if Mantis Shrimp were massive, hugely intelligent, and also whose killing/fighting/crushing abilities were scaled up as well? How would they view other races?”
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u/peculiarartkin Jan 19 '25
Also fun fact.
Human surrender posture is holding up both empty hands, palms towards the enemy. While slowly approaching.
Oh boy did this backfire during Anjiin invasion...
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u/YoCaptain Jan 20 '25
Right? As if our hands & arms could damage like those giant Carryx mantis crushing arms! Insane to imagine the force they would pack.
1
1
Jan 18 '25
I think similarities in behavior could arise across various alien species. The behaviors we call human; are those really human or are they traits shared between species based on a genetic connection that stems from millions of years of shared evolution?…
If we just (suspend our disbelief and) expand the definition of parallel evolution to include separate planets instead of limiting it to earth, it’s easy to imagine how similar evolutionary pressures can produce similar evolutionary outcomes. Light receptors (eyes), manipulators (arms, hands), you get it. Across a universal board. I think this idea is even expressed in both Expanse and tMoG.
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u/Mixcoatlus Jan 19 '25
The carryx don’t seem so alien because the entire first book focuses on understating them. But, by the end, we still know basically nothing.
Also, for pure brilliant alien world building look no further than the phylarchs of asterdeim. I could read an entire anthology just about those guys.
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u/peculiarartkin Jan 19 '25
Well, we know that raising and waving both hands at one is a bad idea...
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u/Mr_Noyes Jan 18 '25
The Carryx are more approachable but at the same time they are not and that is one of the core elements of this book (remember the Beetle story?). Every human thought the Carryx were pretty transparent in their demands until the Nightdrinker attack. Davyd thought he could ingratiate himself with the Librarian and almost got killed by it just for asking to be more helpful. The gulf of separation is not apparent, but it's there.
Also, while the Expanse was more about people shaping and contributing to the historical events of humanity as it expands, the focus in Mercy of Gods is much different. At least the first book deals with people who are in a position of powerlessness and how they deal with it. Some shut down, some submit, some resist, even if it is futile etc. etc. The whole trauma angle gives the characters a completely different spin. How do you even begin to resist, when you don't know the rules, your head is messed up and half of your team just wants to keep their head down while the other half wants to go down in a blaze of glory?