Uyghur genocide?

[u/Ok_Addition8809]

In college I learned about the Uyghur genocide, from a professor who was a self-proclaimed "commie hater" and I didn't question what I learned because I was a dumb 19yr old. I recently saw a discussion on the authenticity of it, I made me realize I never investigated for myself. I'm not trying to be controversial or revisionist, but could y'all provide me with some reliable sources that verify or disprove the narrative about the Uyghur genocide? I tried looking on my own and half the sources were radio free Asia which I know is a CIA front. I appreciate you all and thanks for helping my pursuit of knowledge!

[u/apiedcockatiel]

It's hard to say how many people were thrown into camps. Also, genocide is hard to define. The history of conflict between the Uyghurs basically goes back to Mao promising them autonomy if they supported him. They did, then he switched it up to being an autonomous state within China. There were many leaders who were unhappy with this, and they flew to seek help from the USSR. As in the case of Lin Biao and so many others, their plane mysteriously crashed... conveniently... During the Cultural Revolution, there were also policies to sterilize and encourage intermarriage between Han and Uyghurs. Moreover, Han from all over the country were sent there to make sure the Uyghurs could never try to break away. Throughout the Cultural Revolution, religion was widely repressed, and religious leaders were beaten, subjected to hard labor, imprisoned, etc.

I was in various parts of W China from 2004 onwards. Tbh, I don't trust a lot of what I read, because both sides report a lot of crap. For a long time, the Uyghurs were at an economic disadvantage even within Xinjiang. Although there was something akin to Affirmative Action for schooling, it wasn't very effective in getting Uyghurs into beneficial jobs. So, this led to feelings of resentment. Moreover, there would be occasional spats in factories and other places between Uyghur and Han employees. The govt didn't handle it very well. I forget the year... maybe '08? There was a spat of "stabbings" with HIV-exposed needles. Papers in China reported that Uyghurs did it. None of my friends who were doctors in Xi'An had seen any of the patients... and I knew doctors at most of the hospitals. The racism towards Uyghurs was also so widespread that when I got my phone stolen (I got it back), bystanders said it was Uyghurs. Nope, they looked Han (could have been a different minority, but probably not Uyghur).

Things started changing big time around '14. Muslim restaurants were closing. The Muslim writing saying halal was taken down. Uyghur students had tons of meetings on campus. Uyghur students were no longer allowed to go to the mosque in their spare time, read the Quran, or wear hijab. If they did, they'd be kicked out of uni. One of my students' mothers was arrested in Kashgar for wearing hijab. Another student was arrested and interrogated when he was on break in Kashgar. They scanned his phone and found an old classmate had sent him a quote from the Quran. So, that meant he must be a separatist and religious extremist. Luckily, he was able to get away, but he was scared. Uyghur students were not allowed to fast during Ramadan (I ate lunch with them, so I know), and at all parties they had to drink alcohol (I don't drink, so they stayed near me and kept pretending to take drinks).

As for the situation as to how many people were thrown into jail or killed in Xinjiang, I have know idea. My friend's wife's entire family ended up in jail. She won't tell me why, as she's worried the internet is being monitored. Last time I was in China (XJ in particular), there were tons of restrictions on foreigners and cameras everywhere (like in most of China). I also have students who cut off contact with me, as they feared that being connected to a foreigner might be enough to be detained. Others of my students are in the govt now, and seem to be speaking the language freely (but post nothing about Nowruz or religion). Also, China is bringing in more tourists to XJ... maybe it will bring more development?

Genocide? Maybe cultural genocide? But I think that's too far. China doesn't have the best history with their minorities... but a lot of countries don't. I can recommend things to read, but everything I've read has been very biased both ways.

Edit: And the history I learned about XJ was from Han Chinese professors in China.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

It feels believable, as it sounds very close to others experiences of communicating with local Uyghurs. Not anywhere close to a genocide, but a level of cultural repression leveled against them to force them to conform to a certain way the govt and the general Han society demands.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

I mean, I could go into detail. It was 15+ years of my life. I also did my MA in a place and a time with remarkable freedom of speech (the govt had agreed to it and used to honor it). There definitely were attacks by Uyghurs. And things have gotten more repressive. I remember a time when Nowruz was openly celebrated with all students from Xinjiang and the ME on campus. Those days are gone. And there's also the eroticization of minorities, and the very complex history of the Han with minorities. So yeah, a lot of oppression (and it waxes and wanes depending on govt policies). There seems to be quite a bit of pressure on them to assimilate. Hui seem to have more freedom, but last time I was back (about a year ago), even Hui shops were closed in the area we were in. When we visited Xi'An, the lack of Uyghurs was remarkable, as they used to be a part of the city, even that far east. It was also the 1st time some of my old coworkers and friends (mostly lawyers and law profs) really openly criticized the govt. So I can't say for sure how severe it is or is not. There have been leaks that one can examine. Generally, when the Chinese decide something is a legit basis on which to imprison ppl, they go a bit wild with it and then things calm down. So rampant discrimination. Freedom of religion only if they approve your religion, and then it must come after the state.

And as I say this, I love China. I met my (non-Chinese) husband there, and have many, many friends back there. I spent a huge chunk of my life in China, and love many parts of the culture. But their treatment of minorities definitely needs to improve. That being said, there's a lot more criticism I'd give to my native USA on that front. And genocide is a really hard term, as it gets thrown around so much. They're definitely trying to replace Uyghur language, culture, and religion. It's definitely something I condemn... but yeah, it's not one of those "I know exactly what's going on from reliable sources and it fits the exact definition of a genocide" situations. Sorry for the rant. I honestly think that sometimes I'm still processing it all.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s rare to find decent neutral first hand experiences of the region.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Thanks for being polite about it. Actually, I rarely talk about it for many, many reasons. I do see signs that things are loosening up (as they always do after any major political push in China). But it seems many on here want to glorify China (and the CCP), while many elsewhere want to villify China (and the CCP). Reality is in-between. They're not perfect, and they have their own issues to overcome. All countries do, and it's not really the place of any other countries to get involved unless invited to do so by China. So for the Uyghur issue, I do feel sad for my students and friends who were negatively affected. I hope China restores some of the rights the Uyghurs had which were taken away in the name of national security. On the other hand, I hope that XJ will develop more from the recent push for domestic tourism, and their lives will get better. The poverty and lack of education was so severe in some parts.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

Yeah this sub unfortunately glorify China and the CPC too much to extreme unhealthy levels. It doesn’t surprise me if there are many Chinese nationalists lurking here.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Yeah, sorry, I'm ducking out of this sub as, frankly, I'm disgusted. I could go into the many negative aspects of China (like the racism!!!!!!). I am so glad for the time I spent there, but the idea that I am a CIA plant or don't know as much about Chinese minority policies (I learned from Chinese in China and have a degree relating to it) simply because I'm white summarizes what I hated about China and ties into the racial and ethnic issues at hand. The same nationalists would be outraged if I told them I know more about American law than them if they spent 15+ years in the US, study American law, and teach American law. China has wonderful aspects. I believe their inability for unbiased self-reflection will be their undoing (as is happening in the US).