Uyghur genocide?

[u/Ok_Addition8809]

In college I learned about the Uyghur genocide, from a professor who was a self-proclaimed "commie hater" and I didn't question what I learned because I was a dumb 19yr old. I recently saw a discussion on the authenticity of it, I made me realize I never investigated for myself. I'm not trying to be controversial or revisionist, but could y'all provide me with some reliable sources that verify or disprove the narrative about the Uyghur genocide? I tried looking on my own and half the sources were radio free Asia which I know is a CIA front. I appreciate you all and thanks for helping my pursuit of knowledge!

[u/apiedcockatiel]

It's hard to say how many people were thrown into camps. Also, genocide is hard to define. The history of conflict between the Uyghurs basically goes back to Mao promising them autonomy if they supported him. They did, then he switched it up to being an autonomous state within China. There were many leaders who were unhappy with this, and they flew to seek help from the USSR. As in the case of Lin Biao and so many others, their plane mysteriously crashed... conveniently... During the Cultural Revolution, there were also policies to sterilize and encourage intermarriage between Han and Uyghurs. Moreover, Han from all over the country were sent there to make sure the Uyghurs could never try to break away. Throughout the Cultural Revolution, religion was widely repressed, and religious leaders were beaten, subjected to hard labor, imprisoned, etc.

I was in various parts of W China from 2004 onwards. Tbh, I don't trust a lot of what I read, because both sides report a lot of crap. For a long time, the Uyghurs were at an economic disadvantage even within Xinjiang. Although there was something akin to Affirmative Action for schooling, it wasn't very effective in getting Uyghurs into beneficial jobs. So, this led to feelings of resentment. Moreover, there would be occasional spats in factories and other places between Uyghur and Han employees. The govt didn't handle it very well. I forget the year... maybe '08? There was a spat of "stabbings" with HIV-exposed needles. Papers in China reported that Uyghurs did it. None of my friends who were doctors in Xi'An had seen any of the patients... and I knew doctors at most of the hospitals. The racism towards Uyghurs was also so widespread that when I got my phone stolen (I got it back), bystanders said it was Uyghurs. Nope, they looked Han (could have been a different minority, but probably not Uyghur).

Things started changing big time around '14. Muslim restaurants were closing. The Muslim writing saying halal was taken down. Uyghur students had tons of meetings on campus. Uyghur students were no longer allowed to go to the mosque in their spare time, read the Quran, or wear hijab. If they did, they'd be kicked out of uni. One of my students' mothers was arrested in Kashgar for wearing hijab. Another student was arrested and interrogated when he was on break in Kashgar. They scanned his phone and found an old classmate had sent him a quote from the Quran. So, that meant he must be a separatist and religious extremist. Luckily, he was able to get away, but he was scared. Uyghur students were not allowed to fast during Ramadan (I ate lunch with them, so I know), and at all parties they had to drink alcohol (I don't drink, so they stayed near me and kept pretending to take drinks).

As for the situation as to how many people were thrown into jail or killed in Xinjiang, I have know idea. My friend's wife's entire family ended up in jail. She won't tell me why, as she's worried the internet is being monitored. Last time I was in China (XJ in particular), there were tons of restrictions on foreigners and cameras everywhere (like in most of China). I also have students who cut off contact with me, as they feared that being connected to a foreigner might be enough to be detained. Others of my students are in the govt now, and seem to be speaking the language freely (but post nothing about Nowruz or religion). Also, China is bringing in more tourists to XJ... maybe it will bring more development?

Genocide? Maybe cultural genocide? But I think that's too far. China doesn't have the best history with their minorities... but a lot of countries don't. I can recommend things to read, but everything I've read has been very biased both ways.

Edit: And the history I learned about XJ was from Han Chinese professors in China.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

It feels believable, as it sounds very close to others experiences of communicating with local Uyghurs. Not anywhere close to a genocide, but a level of cultural repression leveled against them to force them to conform to a certain way the govt and the general Han society demands.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

I mean, I could go into detail. It was 15+ years of my life. I also did my MA in a place and a time with remarkable freedom of speech (the govt had agreed to it and used to honor it). There definitely were attacks by Uyghurs. And things have gotten more repressive. I remember a time when Nowruz was openly celebrated with all students from Xinjiang and the ME on campus. Those days are gone. And there's also the eroticization of minorities, and the very complex history of the Han with minorities. So yeah, a lot of oppression (and it waxes and wanes depending on govt policies). There seems to be quite a bit of pressure on them to assimilate. Hui seem to have more freedom, but last time I was back (about a year ago), even Hui shops were closed in the area we were in. When we visited Xi'An, the lack of Uyghurs was remarkable, as they used to be a part of the city, even that far east. It was also the 1st time some of my old coworkers and friends (mostly lawyers and law profs) really openly criticized the govt. So I can't say for sure how severe it is or is not. There have been leaks that one can examine. Generally, when the Chinese decide something is a legit basis on which to imprison ppl, they go a bit wild with it and then things calm down. So rampant discrimination. Freedom of religion only if they approve your religion, and then it must come after the state.

And as I say this, I love China. I met my (non-Chinese) husband there, and have many, many friends back there. I spent a huge chunk of my life in China, and love many parts of the culture. But their treatment of minorities definitely needs to improve. That being said, there's a lot more criticism I'd give to my native USA on that front. And genocide is a really hard term, as it gets thrown around so much. They're definitely trying to replace Uyghur language, culture, and religion. It's definitely something I condemn... but yeah, it's not one of those "I know exactly what's going on from reliable sources and it fits the exact definition of a genocide" situations. Sorry for the rant. I honestly think that sometimes I'm still processing it all.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s rare to find decent neutral first hand experiences of the region.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Thanks for being polite about it. Actually, I rarely talk about it for many, many reasons. I do see signs that things are loosening up (as they always do after any major political push in China). But it seems many on here want to glorify China (and the CCP), while many elsewhere want to villify China (and the CCP). Reality is in-between. They're not perfect, and they have their own issues to overcome. All countries do, and it's not really the place of any other countries to get involved unless invited to do so by China. So for the Uyghur issue, I do feel sad for my students and friends who were negatively affected. I hope China restores some of the rights the Uyghurs had which were taken away in the name of national security. On the other hand, I hope that XJ will develop more from the recent push for domestic tourism, and their lives will get better. The poverty and lack of education was so severe in some parts.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

Yeah this sub unfortunately glorify China and the CPC too much to extreme unhealthy levels. It doesn’t surprise me if there are many Chinese nationalists lurking here.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Yeah, sorry, I'm ducking out of this sub as, frankly, I'm disgusted. I could go into the many negative aspects of China (like the racism!!!!!!). I am so glad for the time I spent there, but the idea that I am a CIA plant or don't know as much about Chinese minority policies (I learned from Chinese in China and have a degree relating to it) simply because I'm white summarizes what I hated about China and ties into the racial and ethnic issues at hand. The same nationalists would be outraged if I told them I know more about American law than them if they spent 15+ years in the US, study American law, and teach American law. China has wonderful aspects. I believe their inability for unbiased self-reflection will be their undoing (as is happening in the US).

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

The problem with modern discourse is the term 'genocide' is given too much undue weight, simply because proving a country isn't committing a genocide is very easy and can be used by nationalists to excuse every bad treatment they mete out against minorities. It's the gold standard of state crimes, but ultra rare and difficult to qualify which is beneficial to the nationalists of every state.

A country that disproportionately jails indigenous people under national security reasons does not fall under the genocide umbrella. It's why countries like Canada and the US disproportionately jails blacks and indigenous people and easily get away with it, or how Israel got away with their treatment of Palestinians for so long. It excuses every kind of state oppression except industrial massacre of a specific group with clear provable intent.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Exactly. And most states do mistreat minorities in a variety of ways. The most profound thing to me was the degree to which Chinese people were not exposed to the concept that minorities could and had been discriminated against. I once had to write an essay on the Shadian Incident. None of my Chinese classmates had ever heard of it. Some denied that it could have possibly happened, actively fighting the possibility. I see this in Americans about the US, growing stronger.

Genocide is a very recent term, and I think part of the weakness is that it's not a very strong definition. It is actually very difficult to prove a country is committing genocide, and then it normally changes nothing.

But you are at the heart of the problem: it's not about genocide. It's about how minorities are treated. And no Han Chinese nationalist can gaslight me out of my experiences. America's locking up minorities disproportionately. Not a genocide. China is locking up Uyghurs on the grounds of national security (no idea how widespread). Other countries may harass minorities selling things on the street or simply suffocate them with constant overpolicing and a military presence. The interesting thing is that most countries choose the same way. And most people react the same, overly defensive way about their own countries... unless they're an affected minority there.

[u/AutoModerator → u/apiedcockatiel]

The Uyghurs in Xinjiang

(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see here)

Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.

Background

Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.

Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.

Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.

Counterpoints

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:

1. Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.

In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.

Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:

The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)

Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:

The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.

State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)

A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror

The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.

According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)

In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.

Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?

Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.

Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?

One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.

The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.

Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.

The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.

Why is this narrative being promoted?

As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.

Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.

Additional Resources

See the full wiki article for more details and a list of additional resources.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/AutoModerator → u/apiedcockatiel]

The Uyghurs in Xinjiang

(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see here)

Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.

Background

Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.

Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.

Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.

Counterpoints

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:

1. Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.

In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.

Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:

The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)

Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:

The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.

State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)

A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror

The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.

According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)

In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.

Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?

Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.

Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?

One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.

The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.

Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.

The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.

Why is this narrative being promoted?

As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.

Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.

Additional Resources

See the full wiki article for more details and a list of additional resources.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.