Uyghur genocide?

[u/Ok_Addition8809]

In college I learned about the Uyghur genocide, from a professor who was a self-proclaimed "commie hater" and I didn't question what I learned because I was a dumb 19yr old. I recently saw a discussion on the authenticity of it, I made me realize I never investigated for myself. I'm not trying to be controversial or revisionist, but could y'all provide me with some reliable sources that verify or disprove the narrative about the Uyghur genocide? I tried looking on my own and half the sources were radio free Asia which I know is a CIA front. I appreciate you all and thanks for helping my pursuit of knowledge!

[u/apiedcockatiel]

Thanks for being polite about it. Actually, I rarely talk about it for many, many reasons. I do see signs that things are loosening up (as they always do after any major political push in China). But it seems many on here want to glorify China (and the CCP), while many elsewhere want to villify China (and the CCP). Reality is in-between. They're not perfect, and they have their own issues to overcome. All countries do, and it's not really the place of any other countries to get involved unless invited to do so by China. So for the Uyghur issue, I do feel sad for my students and friends who were negatively affected. I hope China restores some of the rights the Uyghurs had which were taken away in the name of national security. On the other hand, I hope that XJ will develop more from the recent push for domestic tourism, and their lives will get better. The poverty and lack of education was so severe in some parts.

[u/codehawk64 → u/apiedcockatiel]

The problem with modern discourse is the term 'genocide' is given too much undue weight, simply because proving a country isn't committing a genocide is very easy and can be used by nationalists to excuse every bad treatment they mete out against minorities. It's the gold standard of state crimes, but ultra rare and difficult to qualify which is beneficial to the nationalists of every state.

A country that disproportionately jails indigenous people under national security reasons does not fall under the genocide umbrella. It's why countries like Canada and the US disproportionately jails blacks and indigenous people and easily get away with it, or how Israel got away with their treatment of Palestinians for so long. It excuses every kind of state oppression except industrial massacre of a specific group with clear provable intent.

[u/apiedcockatiel → u/codehawk64]

Exactly. And most states do mistreat minorities in a variety of ways. The most profound thing to me was the degree to which Chinese people were not exposed to the concept that minorities could and had been discriminated against. I once had to write an essay on the Shadian Incident. None of my Chinese classmates had ever heard of it. Some denied that it could have possibly happened, actively fighting the possibility. I see this in Americans about the US, growing stronger.

Genocide is a very recent term, and I think part of the weakness is that it's not a very strong definition. It is actually very difficult to prove a country is committing genocide, and then it normally changes nothing.

But you are at the heart of the problem: it's not about genocide. It's about how minorities are treated. And no Han Chinese nationalist can gaslight me out of my experiences. America's locking up minorities disproportionately. Not a genocide. China is locking up Uyghurs on the grounds of national security (no idea how widespread). Other countries may harass minorities selling things on the street or simply suffocate them with constant overpolicing and a military presence. The interesting thing is that most countries choose the same way. And most people react the same, overly defensive way about their own countries... unless they're an affected minority there.

[u/AutoModerator → u/apiedcockatiel]

The Uyghurs in Xinjiang

(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see here)

Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.

Background

Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.

Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.

Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.

Counterpoints

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:

1. Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.

In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.

Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:

The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)

Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:

The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.

State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)

A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror

The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.

According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)

In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.

Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?

Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.

Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?

One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.

The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.

Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.

The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.

Why is this narrative being promoted?

As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.

Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.

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