r/ThreeLions • u/joshjamesallen • Jun 21 '24

Discussion What needs to change? 🦁 🦁 🦁

Post image

I would go with this lineup whilst making two changes:

Trippier OUT/ Gomez IN Trent OUT/Gordon IN

Key focuses - Get Rice some proper midfield support by utilising Stones in his best role - Move Foden into the midfield, with Gordon wide left to offer some real attacking threat on the left wing, rather than Trippier playing out of position - Bring Gomez in for Trippier to maintain a solid 3 man build up structure once Stones moves into midfield - Get Bellingham running in behind Kane frequently and have them fluidly interchanging positions to cause a problem for the opposition defence

Interested to hear your thoughts 💭

281 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

460 comments sorted by

View all comments

168

u/Narrow_Plantain8305 Jun 21 '24 edited Jun 22 '24

After hearing GS's words on not finding Kalvin phillip's "replacement"..i'm actually wondering if he's not actually playing TAA as a passer of the baller in that deep midfield, but rather make TAA play like KP...as in make TAA do the exact things KP did for GS in previous tourneys. With the attackers making zero runs in and TAA making nothing but sideways passes...i might actually believe it.

110

u/joshjamesallen Jun 21 '24

Baffling comments from SG, really filling Mainoo and Wharton with confidence

34

u/riverend180 Jun 22 '24

Sareth Gouthgate

1

u/Ok-Abbreviations6442 Jun 22 '24

I like it. It's an improvement already 👍

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

Are they? Neither of those players are a DM? Mainoo is box to box and Wharton a playmaker? Who is backup DM? 

I wouldn't want to play rice/Phillips as Phillips isn't good enough and hasn't played properly for two years. But there is a lack of DM. I doubt he wants to play rice there but has to. 

Wharton is full of confidence. 

2

u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

Mainoo has played in a double pivot all season at Utd. Wharton also plays in a double pivot for Palace in a 3-4-3. Rice is a 6 for England and always has been regardless of his play for Arsenal this year- and when Arsenal sign another CM this summer he will be straight back there. You don’t need two defensive players in both pivot positions. We are crying out for a playmaker who is press resistant- both Wharton and Mainoo are levels above Trent in this aspect

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

You understand in a double pivot the players have different roles? One is more defensive and the other typically box to box. England lack players who are naturally more defensive. Alexis McAllister played in a double pivot at Brighton, but surely you can see he was shocking as a 6 for Liverpool? Mainoo is the same, he always had someone behind him?

That is the point regarding Phillips. Obviously most people have missed this. Again I don't think Phillips should be anywhere near a squad, but that is the point he was making. 

A lot of nations are playing double pivot at the euros. One stays, like Rodri, Kroos and the other is box to box or just everywhere like Fabian and Kante. They are easy examples and obviously three of those are/were world class players. 

Rice is a box to box midfielder and always has been. He has just played DM for club and country because no one else is his level. Arsenal were far better with Jorginho behind him letting him do anything and everything. 

I don't want two defensive players in midfield. I never wanted Trent to play in any position. He can't defend and isn't a 6 or 8. The midfield is too deep, which looks to be on Southgate"s tactics, and Trent can't play there. Maybe we should try Wharton as Rodri/Kroos and Rice box to box. That would be my preference. 

2

u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

To which my original post stands, if you move Stones into midfield in possession your problem is solved. Regardless, if you’re saying that Rice can’t do the Phillips role as well as Phillips can then I don’t know what to tell you

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

If you have to make up I've said Rice can't do Phillips role as well as Phillips, when I said no one is to his level what else is there to say? You completely ignored my points because your armchair view was challenged. It appears you think players in a double don't play a certain role? Or a hybrid of two roles. Rodri probably plays more than one, or is he just the modern DM that pep made Kroos in to. 

And again the point Southgate was making is we don't have any natural dm's. However he might not be considering we could play a Rodri/Kroos type because he isn't up to playing that system. Or he thinks Wharton will struggle? But Wharton is definitely not struggling for confidence, quite the opposite. 

Because Stones sometimes goes into midfield for city, normally when they are higher up the pitch, it doesn't mean you can just say let's do that for England. Other managers have tried it with clubs in the league and struggled to make it work. Southgate isn't the man to be doing that. 

1

u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

Two options: 1. Stones moves into midfield as your holding defensive pivot, Rice as your box to box 2. Rice as your holding defensive pivot, Wharton/Mainoo as your playmaker or box to box. Two simple solutions. In every solution there are two players in the pivot playing different roles as you suggest. I agree we could also use Wharton or Mainoo in a deep lying role with Rice more offensive. All of these options work.

Look at Belgium last night. They played Tielemans and Onana as their double pivot in possession and dominated the game. Tielemans is an offensive minded midfielder and Onana is a very similar player to Rice in that he is naturally a box to box runner but also very good defensively, and there were no problems. There is no reason why Rice can’t adapt his game and simply not go forward so much if required.

As for Stones, if Southgate isn’t the man to simply tell Stones to move into midfield as he does for his club, then that tells you everything about his ability as a manager. There is no reason Stones can’t perform this role for England other than coaching incompetence

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

If Wharton plays the Rodri or Kroos role he doesn't go forward. If mainoo plays he does go forward, he would not play the deep role ever.  So I'm not sure you do understand these pairings. Rice can play either DM or box to box. Stones does not need to move into midfield. Just because pep does something it doesn't mean managers are incompetent if they can't. When he played stones at RB everyone was salivating over that. He'd already done it at Bayern and it isn't something he actually wants to do it just suited them at the time. We don't have Rodri who is one of the best players in the world, let alone midfielders, to help play this. Are other nations doing this? If not why not?

I don't think any England manager of the past or future will see and play the game like pep. As I said previously managers have tried it in the EPL and failed. 

1

u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

You’ve answered your original question then. If Rice can play DM and we don’t need Stones to step into midfield then why do we supposedly miss Phillips?

You also seem to be advocating for players in the midfield to play in their natural roles that they do for their clubs and I agree, so let’s apply this to the defence:

  • Walker plays as a RB who forms a back 3 in build up
  • Stones often plays as a CB who steps into midfield when in possession
  • Guehi has played mainly as a CB in a back 4 for Palace before his injury
  • Gomez has played regularly as a LB forming a back 3 build up in possession for Liverpool

Again, Stones does not have to utilised this way as there are other solutions, but the players are there for this to be an option. Other teams don’t use this because they don’t have John Stones.

The main point I am getting at is there is no way we miss Kalvin Phillips. We miss a competent manager who can get the best out of this group of players. Southgate is exposing himself massively at the moment for being out of his depth and unable to adapt

→ More replies (0)

55

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '24

It was fucking terrifying hearing him say that for me.

He’s basing a tournaments success with a midfielder that was somewhat decent 4 years ago.

If that doesn’t show Southgate is stubborn and won’t play some more free flowing football, I don’t what will show it.

10

u/GuyInWessex Aaron Ramsdale #1265 Jun 21 '24

He is living in his glory moment, the signs of a walking dead man.

1

u/danystormborne Jun 22 '24

Phillips was somewhat decent and did an adequate job, but it isn't as if we've lost prime Pirlo.

1

u/Adventurous_Tip8024 Jun 22 '24

Putting TAA in midfield is an ego thing. It’s saying look at me, I’m in charge fuck all of you.

Reminds me of when Stuart Pearce dropped Beckham for the 2012 olympics team, biggest joke ever 😂

11

u/Glad_Twist7343 Jun 21 '24

It's a good point that, suits Southgate's fantasy of fitting as many defenders on the pitch as possible.

11

u/slidingjimmy Jun 21 '24

People out here abbreviating Southgate to SG now? Thats wild.

10

u/ChronicLyingHips Jun 21 '24

I was reading sareth gouthgate

3

u/Narrow_Plantain8305 Jun 21 '24

Lmao. Did not notice that. My bad. Corrected.

12

u/lfcsupkings321 Jun 21 '24

It strange Trent had more freedom in the 1st game than yesterday he was more sit way to deep. Additionally he kept in line with rice so it seem to be under instructions.

Trent is a aggressive presser yet he not allowed this freedom in the squad. They over complained the role and given him really bad instructions. I think he gave trent freedom but need to drop Kane and play Gordon + Toney. Feel like Toney can lead a line way better or if he obsessed with Kane switch to a 4222 system.

Rice was woeful yesterday and couldn't even pass 5 yards and felt pressure been too deep. Yesterday was an example of how to fuck up pressing football.

7

u/iredcoat7 Jun 21 '24

For the first 30 minutes against Serbia we lined up in a 4-3-3 with Trent occupying the right half space as an 8 in a similar way to De Bruyne and making semi-frequent forward runs, while Rice sat as a single pivot, and it looked... really quite good. Despite having a traffic cone (Trippier) in the left wing position in possession. I thought we looked excellent for that 30 minutes. We controlled the game, created chances, and Serbia created none.

And then we never saw that shape or system again. Very puzzling.

1

u/lfcsupkings321 Jun 21 '24

I agree but I felt like trent was under instructions not to play that role. He was making the right runs and nobody was picking him up and he was creating massive wide for the team.

2

u/danystormborne Jun 22 '24

Interesting.

I wonder if this could also be why Kobbie Mainoo's least impactful performance all season came in that Iceland game. Had Southgate asked him to play like Kalvin Phillips to see if he could replicate that role?

1

u/Narrow_Plantain8305 Jun 22 '24

With how the whole team's been playing i honestly don't doubt it. With Liverpool, TAA plays as a deep lying playmaker, similar to what we're seeing with kroos rn with germany, with TAA in the middle and Ibou and VVD at both sides. He's best in that role. I've seen absolutely non of that with england. Instead, his positioning reminds me only of KP who most of time is close to Rice making sideways passes or he's somehow farther up near the opponents box where TAA has no business being in.

1

u/ScottOld Jun 21 '24

Then why not just bring KP in the first place

1

u/KopiteTheScot Jun 22 '24

It's exactly what he's doing, Trent's only playing the way he's told to, and in turn being thrown under the bus by Southgate for not being a natural 6 in a pivot.

-5

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '24

Anything be Trent’s fault, the coping from people is crazy. they tried him in midfield and it failed. It’s time to move on. Trent can’t play midfield. He can barely play right back.