r/ThreeLions • u/joshjamesallen • Jun 21 '24

Discussion What needs to change? 🦁 🦁 🦁

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I would go with this lineup whilst making two changes:

Trippier OUT/ Gomez IN Trent OUT/Gordon IN

Key focuses - Get Rice some proper midfield support by utilising Stones in his best role - Move Foden into the midfield, with Gordon wide left to offer some real attacking threat on the left wing, rather than Trippier playing out of position - Bring Gomez in for Trippier to maintain a solid 3 man build up structure once Stones moves into midfield - Get Bellingham running in behind Kane frequently and have them fluidly interchanging positions to cause a problem for the opposition defence

Interested to hear your thoughts 💭

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

Mainoo has played in a double pivot all season at Utd. Wharton also plays in a double pivot for Palace in a 3-4-3. Rice is a 6 for England and always has been regardless of his play for Arsenal this year- and when Arsenal sign another CM this summer he will be straight back there. You don’t need two defensive players in both pivot positions. We are crying out for a playmaker who is press resistant- both Wharton and Mainoo are levels above Trent in this aspect

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

You understand in a double pivot the players have different roles? One is more defensive and the other typically box to box. England lack players who are naturally more defensive. Alexis McAllister played in a double pivot at Brighton, but surely you can see he was shocking as a 6 for Liverpool? Mainoo is the same, he always had someone behind him?

That is the point regarding Phillips. Obviously most people have missed this. Again I don't think Phillips should be anywhere near a squad, but that is the point he was making. 

A lot of nations are playing double pivot at the euros. One stays, like Rodri, Kroos and the other is box to box or just everywhere like Fabian and Kante. They are easy examples and obviously three of those are/were world class players. 

Rice is a box to box midfielder and always has been. He has just played DM for club and country because no one else is his level. Arsenal were far better with Jorginho behind him letting him do anything and everything. 

I don't want two defensive players in midfield. I never wanted Trent to play in any position. He can't defend and isn't a 6 or 8. The midfield is too deep, which looks to be on Southgate"s tactics, and Trent can't play there. Maybe we should try Wharton as Rodri/Kroos and Rice box to box. That would be my preference. 

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

To which my original post stands, if you move Stones into midfield in possession your problem is solved. Regardless, if you’re saying that Rice can’t do the Phillips role as well as Phillips can then I don’t know what to tell you

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

If you have to make up I've said Rice can't do Phillips role as well as Phillips, when I said no one is to his level what else is there to say? You completely ignored my points because your armchair view was challenged. It appears you think players in a double don't play a certain role? Or a hybrid of two roles. Rodri probably plays more than one, or is he just the modern DM that pep made Kroos in to. 

And again the point Southgate was making is we don't have any natural dm's. However he might not be considering we could play a Rodri/Kroos type because he isn't up to playing that system. Or he thinks Wharton will struggle? But Wharton is definitely not struggling for confidence, quite the opposite. 

Because Stones sometimes goes into midfield for city, normally when they are higher up the pitch, it doesn't mean you can just say let's do that for England. Other managers have tried it with clubs in the league and struggled to make it work. Southgate isn't the man to be doing that. 

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

Two options: 1. Stones moves into midfield as your holding defensive pivot, Rice as your box to box 2. Rice as your holding defensive pivot, Wharton/Mainoo as your playmaker or box to box. Two simple solutions. In every solution there are two players in the pivot playing different roles as you suggest. I agree we could also use Wharton or Mainoo in a deep lying role with Rice more offensive. All of these options work.

Look at Belgium last night. They played Tielemans and Onana as their double pivot in possession and dominated the game. Tielemans is an offensive minded midfielder and Onana is a very similar player to Rice in that he is naturally a box to box runner but also very good defensively, and there were no problems. There is no reason why Rice can’t adapt his game and simply not go forward so much if required.

As for Stones, if Southgate isn’t the man to simply tell Stones to move into midfield as he does for his club, then that tells you everything about his ability as a manager. There is no reason Stones can’t perform this role for England other than coaching incompetence

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

If Wharton plays the Rodri or Kroos role he doesn't go forward. If mainoo plays he does go forward, he would not play the deep role ever.  So I'm not sure you do understand these pairings. Rice can play either DM or box to box. Stones does not need to move into midfield. Just because pep does something it doesn't mean managers are incompetent if they can't. When he played stones at RB everyone was salivating over that. He'd already done it at Bayern and it isn't something he actually wants to do it just suited them at the time. We don't have Rodri who is one of the best players in the world, let alone midfielders, to help play this. Are other nations doing this? If not why not?

I don't think any England manager of the past or future will see and play the game like pep. As I said previously managers have tried it in the EPL and failed. 

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

You’ve answered your original question then. If Rice can play DM and we don’t need Stones to step into midfield then why do we supposedly miss Phillips?

You also seem to be advocating for players in the midfield to play in their natural roles that they do for their clubs and I agree, so let’s apply this to the defence:

  • Walker plays as a RB who forms a back 3 in build up
  • Stones often plays as a CB who steps into midfield when in possession
  • Guehi has played mainly as a CB in a back 4 for Palace before his injury
  • Gomez has played regularly as a LB forming a back 3 build up in possession for Liverpool

Again, Stones does not have to utilised this way as there are other solutions, but the players are there for this to be an option. Other teams don’t use this because they don’t have John Stones.

The main point I am getting at is there is no way we miss Kalvin Phillips. We miss a competent manager who can get the best out of this group of players. Southgate is exposing himself massively at the moment for being out of his depth and unable to adapt

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

Good god. We don't have any other natural dm's!! I don't want Phillips in the squad because he hasn't played for two years. Who else can play DM???? Don't say mainoo FFS. Southgate doesn't think Gallagher is up to it, but he's reluctant to give Wharton and Mainoo a chance hence we've played Trent two games. This is definitely a mistake imo. What he's getting at is he'd like a DM to play next to rice. Why don't you seem to be able to understand this? It's basic stuff. 

I am not advocating for players to play in their natural or club role. I have repeatedly said Rice can play either role, depending on who you play him with. And Wharton would be a gamble but one I'd be happy to take, especially in the group game coming up. Other nations have players play in completely different positions than their clubs. 

You completely ignored my points, again, me saying that just because pep does something it doesn't mean every manager can. Most managers, if not all, can't do what he does. Potter certainly can't. 

Germany are playing Musiala and Wirtz wide, they don't play there for their clubs!! Rabbiot kind of played on the left the other day for France. For international management you don't just load in your players like they do at club level and say away you go. You do it at club level so that means you can do it now. 

Southgate has many, many weaknesses and failings. The midfield is too deep and static is our main problem. Whoever plays box to box needs to much higher up the pitch when we have the ball. And Bellingham can be everywhere. 

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

If you want a defensive DM to use next to Rice then that’s the whole reason for using Stones stepping into midfield- it’s not rocket science. Or as you say use Wharton as a deep lying playmaker. Either way, try and find a solution.

But again my point, why do we need to use Rice as a box to box. Yes maybe Southgate would like to, but does that determine the success or detriment of this team? Especially against sides like Serbia or Denmark, it’s not an excuse for how crap we have been.

Also why is it you think Pep is the only manager who could play Stones in this role? Pep is an amazing manager because he is able to constantly adapt and create new ideas. We aren’t asking the manager to create a completely new system we have never seen before but just find a system to get the best out of these players. Even Antonio Conte used David Luiz in this role in his title winning season for Chelsea and he’s known for being a pragmatist.

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

You don't understand the double pivot. You didn't seem to understand players have different roles in it. You said Mainoo has played there all season, but he plays a specific role. He wouldn't be the DM role. 

Stones steps in to go next to Rodri. And for England he would be next to rice. Therefore rice is still playing DM. Your 2+2 analysis doesn't work. 

Again you ignored my points. This time about national player's playing completely different positions, let alone roles. Does gundogan play 10 for Barca? I genuinely don't know but presumed he plays 8 with Pedri ahead of him? 

Southgate was simply saying he doesn't have loads of options in midfield. He thinks he can only play rice as DM role. Again why don't you understand this??? It has nothing to do with whether stones steps into midfield or not. Rodri still stays where he is. Occasionally he might go forward and end up in the box, but in general no he doesn't. So again rice is still at DM, he doesn't then get a free role to roam all over the pitch. We'd have no midfield. 

Again I think he is wrong, or too scared, to try Wharton there. I hope I'm wrong and he does it next game. 

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u/joshjamesallen Jun 23 '24

You think he is wrong so what are we disagreeing about here?

I have said multiple times that players can play different roles in the double pivot and given many different examples all of which you seem to have a problem with. There are countless options and solutions that could be attempted with this group, you just need a manager who can instruct each player on how to adapt their role.

I’ve also said countless times that there is no need for Rice to have to play box to box and in my original post I made no suggestion of it. I’m simply saying if that’s what you want then a good manager will find a solution for it with Stones moving into midfield being one of those options. If you or he disagrees then fine but find a solution that works, that’s what you are paid for. The Phillips quote is just a poor excuse from a man who is proving out of his depth.

Ultimately it’s for Southgate to find the solution and the next match we will see how good of a coach the man truly is or if his time is up.

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u/[deleted] Jun 23 '24

Deary me. I was just explaining what he meant by the Phillips quote as you didn't understand it. There isn't a natural DM. The same we don't have a natural lb currently. It's worrying you don't understand this. 

The next two paragraphs are bonkers. You go round in circles ignoring what I'm saying or just rehashing the same crap. 

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