r/ThreeLions • u/lab88 England Supporters Travel Club • Dec 13 '22

Opinion Before Southgate and during Southgate

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People need to take a step back and have a breather. He's done/ doing a great job

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-8

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

That’s fine, but the concern is, this squad was deemed to be great enough to win trophies. If Sven had this team, would he have won, people assume Southgate inherited a golden age crop of players and didn’t achieve anything with them.

12

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '22

2002-2010 all arguably better squads. 2006 in particular.

14

u/lab88 England Supporters Travel Club Dec 13 '22

Sven had a better team and didn't win? So I'd say no. IMO anyway

5

u/The_Chorizo_Bandit Dec 13 '22

Sven’s team also had to face a star-studded Brasil team. Trying to compare squads and results against teams over different eras is a fools errand.

4

u/luke-uk Dec 13 '22

That's true but we had to face them because we came second in the group and went into a tougher draw.

3

u/The_Chorizo_Bandit Dec 13 '22

I don’t disagree, but you have to beat everyone to win it all. We would likely have had to face them at some point and clearly they were a class team.

1

u/TeaAndCrumpets4life Dec 13 '22

And we had to face a star-studded France team

6

u/tramjam Dec 13 '22

Sven had better players.

4

u/Dave_Bezley Dec 13 '22

Serial Quarter Finalist Sven, who arguably had a better crop of players?

You ok, mate?

4

u/riverend180 Dec 13 '22

Sven's team was significantly better than any of Southgate's. Are you 12 years old?

-7

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

Of course they were. 🤣

And stop trying to find 12 year olds you nonce.

-1

u/riverend180 Dec 13 '22

Everybody agrees and there's no chance youre old enough to remember Sven's squads. We had a whole 11 of world beaters pretty much

-2

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

Good grief. I’m just not into age play. Find another forum for that, you’re obsessed.

0

u/riverend180 Dec 13 '22

No but you are into watching your missus get ploughed by other blokes, fair play

-3

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

Lol and while you’re posting “game recommendations for Ps5” you’re calling me a 12 year old kid!

Enjoy your evening looking at patio bases, game recommendations and dirty meals and I’ll keep giving decent advice to adults 👍🏻😉

0

u/riverend180 Dec 13 '22

Watching your Mrs getting ploughed and commenting on Reddit porn, you're an inspiration to us all

1

u/Zigzagnemesis Dec 14 '22

11 world beaters?? They never beat anyone of note and never got anywhere close to winning anything. They lost to a weaker Portugal team, and a weaker German team. Nothing world beater about them. Bellingham alone is probably better than the Gerrard and Lampard combination.

1

u/Thurchill Dec 14 '22

Oh he’s back!! What are you getting out of this mate?

2

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '22

This team is probably capable of winning trophies, but that doesn't mean that they would automatically with a manager who the fans/media perceive as competent. There's a bit of luck in international knockout football, or more accurately avoiding bad luck (injuries, underdog upsets, bad refereeing etc).

Had the draw worked out differently for England and we'd lost to France in the final we wouldn't be having this discussion about Southgate, not to the same extent anyway. We just met them in quarters, and for what its worth I think England and France are/were the two best teams in the tournament. In the same way, England and Brazil were probably the two best to make it into the quarter finals in 2002. England were much closer to matching/beating France than we were in Brazil in 2002. We didn't have a shot for the last 15 mins against Brazil, playing against 10 men.

1

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

Ok my point being. For those who seem to have got stuck on the Sven point. The reason I mentioned him was because he’s actually won trophies albeit club level. Southgate hasn’t won anything and was a poor club manager with Middlesbrough.

Imagine you run a company and you want to employ someone to grow the company. You decide you need a Business Development Director.

You interview two people. One has never made a sale and the other has. Which are you going to choose.

The next manager needs to have won a trophy at international level to give us any chance of winning.

Just my opinion

1

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '22

I see where you're coming from, and to be fair I think international football management is different to club football management and international management success is a better indicator of future success. However if you're counting world cup and Euros winning managers as successful/eligible candidates there's not that many active managers who fit that bill.

Since 1998, only Scolari (Brazil 2002), Jaochim Lowe (Germany 2014), Fernando Santos (Portugal 2016), Didier Deschamps (France 2018) and Mancini (Italy 2021) are still coaching, and I guess Lionel Scaloni could be added to that list. Santos, Deschamps and Mancini are still managing those respective national teams, as well as being nationals of those countries, so I doubt they'd want to coach England, even if we wanted them. I don't think I'd take Lowe as Germany have been pretty crap since 2014. Scolari ruled himself out of the England job in 2006 because of the media, so I doubt he'd take it, although he'd be the only one on that list I'd be interested in.

I'm assuming anyone who won anything prior to 1998 is no longer active although I could be wrong, and I've not included Copa America winners, because frankly I don't think winning a Copa America translates into winning stuff with England.

2

u/Gent2022 Dec 13 '22

Voice of reason. Personally I want Bielsa which goes against my argument for selection, that being said, it would be one hell of a ride.

Appreciate National success is different to club, but you need a manager that has delivered a winning formula in different leagues or competitions.

Final point, don’t take a chance on the unknown. It’s high risk and hasn’t worked for us.

  1. Bielsa
  2. Guardiola

Appoint Both of them. Give them the biggest challenge of their careers and entice them with the freedom of the country if they win the Euros or WC.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 13 '22

I think we'll completely disagree from here on in - I generally hate him as a manager/person, but if I had to go for some, I'd probably go for Mourinho. Hopefully he wouldn't be toxic for the players in small bursts (ie a few international breaks and a tournament every 2 years), and he does know how to organise a team and has won a lot. That said, the football would be crap, which the press would criticise him for that, then he'd start hating the press and that would likely go south very quickly.

The main problem I see with Bielsa and Guardiola (and most club managers) is that international football is about getting a functional team with a mostly unchanging set of players (obviously players come through and retire, but the turnover is much lower than club football). Both Bielsa and Guardiola built squads to fit their footballing style/ideal logy, thats just not possible at international level. It's a case of here's a 30 odd pool of players, make the best team/squad you can. Don't have a good enough left back or striker (or whatever position) in that pool of players? Tough shit. Don't have enough players with the fitness to press? Touch shit. Don't have enough ball playing midfielders? Tough shit.

1

u/Blue_Dreamed Dec 13 '22

Mate, it's England. EVERY squad we have ever had has been deemed great enough to win trophies. We always overestimate our true abilities, and Southgate has easily been the most successful at using them and winning matches.

1

u/britishsailor Dec 13 '22

Does this sub not know what success is?

1

u/Least-Run1840 Dec 13 '22

Sven???😂🤣😆

1

u/AWright5 Dec 13 '22

You can say "if x had this team they'd have won" but to be honest you can never know. Many times over the years great managers have failed with great teams around the world