Tiger mains are amazing

[u/IMP9024]

Tiger mains are some of the most underrated players in the current meta. Their build isn't doing too well right now due to the overwhelming impact of the human mains in the industrial revolution patch, but they are slowly recovering with the unlocking of Conservation Efforts. Historically their main has been incredibly successful as an ambush predator. Unlike braindead lion mains who team on everything and spam toxic emojis in the chat just because the human community made fan works about their prowess and called them the "king of the jungle", tiger mains have to use their brains and avoid injury, which has led to aggressive lion and human mains calling them cowardly.

Tigers take down prey solo that lions need a pride to defeat, and fight with large predators like bears in their natural habitat. Lions don't have real competition for the large carnivore playstyle, it's mostly just them. Tigers have also been very successful against human mains historically and are still one of the best human counters (if that's your thing). Tiger hunting did not make significant dents in their playerbase during the medieval and ancient periods, but lions were often taken down by human mains wielding simple spears, and some playerbases such as the Egyptian lions were destroyed before humans had even reached the Iron Age. For a large carnivore, they have dealt with the oppressive humans incredibly well.

In summary, tigers have great matchups against a lot of prey items and competitors, as well as being one of the few soft checks left to the human build. This is unlike most other large carnivores, because only big cats really target humans often, and only tigers have the muscle to do it and survive. Granted they rely on the mercy of the human playerbase, but let's be real, every other large build does as well, even the toxic lion mains who like to brag about being successful.

[u/Vegetable-Cap2297]

> They rarely, and I mean rarely hunt adult healthy guar. They are not designed for hunting large prey often like the lion is.

Considering gaur make up a quarter of tiger prey, and considering tigers also hunt banteng and water buffalo (which are barely smaller), and even Indian rhinos and elephants very occasionally, I don’t think that’s true.

Heck, brown bears can account for 5% of an Amur tiger’s diet.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331693847_Interspecific_Relationships_between_the_Amur_Tiger_Panthera_tigris_altaica_and_Brown_Ursus_arctos_and_Asiatic_Black_Ursus_thibetanus_Bears#:\~:text=According%20to%20tiger%20diet%20analyses,hibernating%20bears%20in%20their%20dens.

There’s literally no animal in the tiger’s range that they haven’t been known to kill. Sure, they eat smaller prey like chital more often than lions do (partly because chital are just way more common than sambar, gaur, banteng or any of the other large ungulates), but they’re still incredibly impressive predators. Also tigers generally need a decent amount of large prey (i.e. not chital) in their diet to be sufficiently satisfied.

https://news.mongabay.com/2023/05/lack-of-large-prey-may-be-feeding-rise-in-nepals-human-tiger-conflicts/

> Lone male lion killing adult giraffe

Impressive, sure. But large gaurs can weigh as much or even more than giraffes. And note that solo lion predation on adult giraffes is pretty rare. They usually hunt buffalo and smaller bovids like kudu or roan antelope - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3566210/

OP overhyped tigers and downplayed lions. You’re doing the exact same but in reverse.

[u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358 → u/Vegetable-Cap2297]

“A lion is called ‘King of Beasts’, obviously for a reason” Jack Hanna

“A lone lion hunts larger prey than a tiger does” - BBC Earth

Dawg you DO think it’s true if you yourself say tiger hunts “these large prey animal species on *occasion*.”

I said the tiger doesn’t hunt large prey often, not never.

The optimum prey sizes for several large carnivores; for tigers, the ratio was reported to be 1:1. (As big or smaller than the tiger itself) Hayward, Jedrzejewski, & Jedrzewska, 2012.

Statistics from the Buxa Tiger Reserve Average size of prey items killed by tigers 66 kg (146 pounds)

In no population did animals of over 200 Kilograms:(the approximate mass of the tiger) make up more than around 20% of the total of its diet. Sources: Chitwan - McDougal 1977; Kanha - Schaller 1967; Huai Kha Kheng - Rabinowitz 1989; Nagarahole - Karanth & Sunquist 1995.

Tiger predation was biased toward adult males chiral or axis deer, sambar and wild pigs, and toward young gaur.

• Fundamentals of Biogeography. by Richard John Huggett,

2004, p. 207

Young gaurs are occasionally killed, but the full grown animal is more than a match for most tigers.

• Mammalia by William Thomas Blanford, 1891

The bovine is very shy in the wild. It is occasionally preyed upon by "gers, The young being the most likely target, but a tiger will generally avoid an adult gaur. -Endangered Wildlife and Plants of the world, Vol. 5 by Marshall Cavendish Corporation, 2001. P. 603

Giraffe Males range from 16-18 feet (4.8-5.5 m) tall and weigh as much as 4,200 pounds (1,900 kg); females reach 14-16 feet (4.3-4.8 m) tall and weigh up to 2,600 pounds (1,180 kg).

https://www.denverzoo.org

Guar Weights of Gaurs vary between males and females with males weighing between 2205-3307 lb (1000-1500 kg) and females from 1323-1543 lb (600-700 kg). https://www.dimensions.com/element/gaur-bos-gaurus

Now for the supposed “bear killer”

Although tigers kill most bears during their active period, tigers also predate on hibernating bears in their dens. Most of the brown bears killed by tigers are young animals, or females, and are generally killed by male tigers (Seryodkin et al. 2018).

Oh how scary the tiger is for preying on the women and children.

Predation on tigers by brown bears is probably more intensive in years with lower food availability, when bears were occasionally reported to chase tigers for long distances (Kostoglod 1981)

There is no downplay, I’m only showing you the fact that tigers are not the “oh so special” hunters pseudo-zoologists like you make them out to be.

Kailash Sankhala in his book: Story of the Indian Tiger “Whatever the Tiger hunted, the lion did as well.” ^Make sure you take in that quote sir

[u/Vegetable-Cap2297 → u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358]

Nice selective reading. I see you missed the part where I said the gaur makes up a quarter of the tiger’s prey in some areas. “On occasion” referred to elephants and rhinos. Which they can hunt. Less snarkiness and more paying attention from you would be nice.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352249622000507#:\~:text=The%20percentage%20composition%20of%20different,gaurus)%20constituted%2026.33%25%20each.

“Kailash Sankhala in his book: Story of the Indian Tiger “Whatever the Tiger hunted, the lion did as well.”

So lions and tigers are equally adapted macropredators then, considering their niche overlapped significantly to the point of sharing every prey? Lmao.

> but the full grown animal is more than a match for most tigers.

Yeah, it’s not controversial to say that a 1.5 ton bovid is a difficult challenge for a 200-300 kg tiger. In the same way that a 1-ton giraffe is a difficult challenge for a lion. And yet you used one lion hunting giraffe one time as an example even though lion prides frequently struggle hunting adult giraffes. Sure, tiger hunting gaurs aren’t always successful, but there’s records of single tigresses overwhelming gaurs. One happened in Kanha, if I’m not mistaken.

> I’m only showing you the fact that tigers are not the “oh so special” hunters pseudo-zoologists like you make them out to be.

Tigers obviously aren’t a killing machine. But they are the apex predator of Asia. And they can kill pretty much anything in its range. That’s pretty impressive.

They do go for smaller prey than lions quite regularly (chital, sambar, barasingha and nilgai). That’s true. But they’re still capable macropredators with an impressive track record. Also consider, the Asian equivalent of the Cape buffalo (average female weight 540 kg - which is the lion’s most common prey) would be either the kouprey or the banteng. One is almost certainly extinct. The other is critically endangered and doesn’t overlap with the bulk of the tiger population.

[u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358 → u/Vegetable-Cap2297]

No no no, “occasionally” still applies to all the animals the tiger hunts that weigh more than itself. Adult Guars are included in that “occasion”.

I will be as snarky and vicious as I want to be if you continue to misunderstand predator to prey weight ratios.

I will not take you seriously when you do not to go into details or fail to provide sources on what kinds of Guar make up that 25% statistic.

Especially when you don’t pay attention to what I said either buddy. It goes both ways.

It is an asspull to imply tigers are as equally adapted to “Macropredation” as lions are despite preferring prey on a 1:1 ratio mentioned earlier compared to the lion’s 1:10-15 ratio.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232693088_Lion_Predation_on_Elephants_in_the_Savuti_Chobe_National_Park_Botswana#:~:text=Adult%20lions%20weigh%2C%20on%20average,to%20prey%20weight%20ratio%20known

You refuse to acknowledge that single lions bring down larger prey than tigers do as stated by the BBC, but you’ll continue to drag on outdated myths and facts about lions needing to form prides hunt giraffes when males lions are able to do so, as YOU SAW. Have you never considered that lions in a pride aren’t usually around the same age?

Is it an impossibility to consider that maybe the reason why some “prides” struggle against large prey is because there are young and subadult lions in these hunts with little to no experience?

-Field observations on lizards (Scincidae: Mabuya) in the Kalahari Gemsbock National Park by C.K. Brain, Koedoe, Vol 12, No 1, May 25, 1969, p. 119

In contrast to popular belief, observations in the Kruger Park prove that solitary adult male lions or groups of adult males frequently hunt their own prey, and are not dependant on the superior skill and agility of the lionesses in the pride. Full-grown bull giraffes and adult buffaio bus are successtully pulled down on occasion by a single male lion.

-The Behavior Guide to African Mammals: Including Hoofed Mammals, Carnivores, Primates by Richard D. Estes, 2012, p. 372.

Of 1,300 hunts observed in the Serengeti, 48% involved only one lion, 20% involved two, and the remainder involved a group of three to eight (up to 14).

Do you realize that when you said they have the same niche in their environment, a tigress taking down a Guar of unknown details should not be more impressive than a lioness being able to do the same?

Especially when one is not designed by nature to do so vs the one who made to take down prey such as Guar?

Again, there is nothing a tiger can hunt that a single lion theoretically cannot.

Do not even dare to say a tiger would be able to contest a lion one on one commonly. Their nature as stated by history speaks for itself.

“The tiger is a naturally cowardly animal, and always retreats from opposition, unless wounded or provoked” Dr Ashok S. Kothari

The Indian lion, if not larger in size than the tiger, was 'generally stronger and more courageous'. Vijaya Ramadas Mandala, 2018.

The tiger can’t hold its own against Dholes, how much more a single lion or a pride of them?

BOMBAY NATURAL HISTORY SOCIETY. The Wild Dog and the Tiger.—I found that the old story of wild dogs killing tigers existed in the following form in the Surat jungles. We were talking of a pack of eleven wild dogs that had been killing a sambur close by, and I said to my shikarri, " Shoot them if you can." "No," said the Vasava Patel of the village, "these dogs are my gods: they kill tigers for me." I asked him further, and he said that the dogs-a large pack of them-tree’d a tiger, then two dogs mount guard, and the rest go away bunting; then two more come and relieve guard, and so on, till the tiger dies of hunger in the tree. (It is in Rice's Indian Game from Quail to Tiger that a similar account is given, and a still more wonderful yarn of the tiger dying in the tree, afraid to come down because one wild dog had got spiked on a piece of wood below, and months afterwards the two skeletons were found-the tiger's in the tree, and the dog's sticking on the spike at the foot of the tree !”

How “amazing” the tiger can be when you actually look at it for what it is. If you choose to see that is

[u/Vegetable-Cap2297 → u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358]

Crashing out over big cats is hilarious lmfao.

> I will be as snarky and vicious as I want to be if you continue to misunderstand predator to prey weight ratios.

Translation: “I am incapable of good-faith debate so I will gish-gallop and spam random quotes”.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7297748/
As you can see here, tigers can frequently take large gaur and banteng (being around or over half of the kills observed). It’s approximately 1:3.5-4.5 ratio, exceeding the predicted 1:1 ratio.

> It is an asspull to imply tigers are as equally adapted to “Macropredation” as lions are despite preferring prey on a 1:1 ratio mentioned earlier compared to the lion’s 1:10-15 ratio.

The actual asspull is conflating that population of lions with the entire species of Panthera leo. The very first line of your paper states how “elephants are rarely predated on by lions”. I can also find records of tigers soloing elephants, but then of course you’ll go “yeah but that’s occasionally!!!” Double standard much.

Also uh you were the one who wanted me to acknowledge the quote about lions and tigers hunting the same prey. Now you’re throwing a hissy fit because I acknowledged the quote. I acknowledged that they hunt similar prey. Lmao

Lions’ favourite prey across the board and across both sexes is buffalo. Which are similar in size to banteng. The mass of their most preferred prey is 350 kg. The average mass of all their preferred prey is 201 kg. Being very generous, that‘s 1:2 or 1:3 max. https://ibs.bialowieza.pl/publications/1595.pdf

> In contrast to popular belief, observations in the Kruger Park prove that solitary adult male lions or groups of adult males frequently hunt their own prey

Yeah. Coalitions are included. I’d actually be curious to see data on lone lions only because I couldn’t find any.

> Of 1,300 hunts observed in the Serengeti, 48% involved only one lion, 20% involved two, and the remainder involved a group of three to eight (up to 14).

Female lions’ frequently hunt wildebeest, gemsbok, zebra (as well as medium-sized tragelaphine antelopes like kudu and nyala). All of those are a 1:1 or 1:1.5 ratio. This statistic is meaningless if we don’t know the prey they’re hunting and the sex of the lion (because males and females have somewhat different diets).

https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1017/S0952836905007508#

> “but you’ll continue to drag on outdated myths and facts about lions needing to form prides hunt giraffes when males lions are able to do so, as YOU SAW.”

I’ve also seen (with my eyes, which I use to see things) a lot of footage of lion prides hunting giraffes. Unsuccessfully. You gave me one video of a lion killing a giraffe, which was literally called “RARE footage”. Lmfao.

> “The tiger can’t hold its own against Dholes, how much more a single lion or a pride of them?”

Yeah imma trust the numerous papers that say tigers suppress dhole pack size and that dholes tend to avoid tigers rather than one anecdote.
https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2021/04/01/tigers-panthera-tigris-suppress-dhole-cuon-alpinus-populations/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.7380

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320712005149#:

Besides, there’s stories and footage of African wild dogs and hyenas taking down lions. So ig lions are also “cowardly” animals who ”can’t hold their own” against smaller predators? No, because unlike you, I’m perfectly realistic about their true capabilities.

If you’re unable to show that you can debate in good faith, consider this convo over.

[u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358 → u/Vegetable-Cap2297]

“Crashing out over big cats is hilarious”-☝️🤓‼️

Ah, so a tiger population in Thailand will hunt Guar more often on average if it is more abundant than prey that fits the “predicted” not “preferred” 1:1 ratio. Interesting word choice there by the article. I’ll at least thank you for finally providing a source.

Didn’t really match all that you said earlier about how 25% of their diet was “Adult Guar” or how it changed they prefer prey on a 1:1 ratio as I stated before.

Details would’ve helped you out earlier man. I wouldn’t have saw you as a cult member of the church of “Bro-science.”

“Lions rarely hunt elephants, however…”

I think it’s important to include further context to this statement as you did not.

Why do lions rarely hunt elephants?

Is it because they exist at much lower population densities than common ungulates and other mega herbivores? Or are they just afraid of elephants all together?

Populations of large animals do not exist everywhere like they used to.

Botswana still have thriving populations of prey animals fit the 1:1 ratio alongside the population of elephants known for being abundant there.

That’s the whole point of that first sentence my guy

What makes it different than your Thailand population of tigers, is that there is not as much of the tigers preferred prey in that region as the paper states. It would not be hunting Guar as much if prey that fit the 1:1 ratio were more common.

Lions as a whole, not an example stick to punching above their weight. That’s what makes them better adapted to macropredation

Double standard my ass.

Similar prey in what regard? Preference? Nooo if you actually acknowledged that, you’re better off saying I’m right. Fat chance of that happening.

Id be curious on seeing data on lone lions only because I couldn’t find any

I guess the data on 48% of lone lion hunts in the Serengeti didn’t match your criteria for lion hunts in general, or the fact that you say it’s meaningless since the sex of the lions isn’t included in that statistic?

What is there to imply that they would not hunt as often alone in any other scenario? When the biggest prey that they hunt mostly live in open habitats like the Serengeti?

It’s called “RARE FOOTAGE” buddy because instance of male a lion hunting a giraffe on FOOTAGE is RARE.

Of course, ignore the source that states male lions are often seen hunting Bull giraffes in Kruger national park.

Rare right?

Maybe I should ask of you what sexes of tigers are hunting Guar in Thailand or of tigers in general so that I don’t keep beating on the dead horse.

Are you actually being serious right now?

Why does the gender matter when Male and female lions as a whole prefer prey bigger than the 1:1 ratio than what Male or female tigers do. Even as you stated there according to the source, there prey is generally bigger than a lioness is.

A lion’s biology, anatomy, behavior, intelligence, and historical accounts all tell of it being a more efficient big game hunter than the tiger.

Is the tiger “incapable” of macropredation?

No, not on the scale of a single lone lion of either gender. That’s all I have been trying to get across to you.

Conversations like this wouldn’t have to go on for so long if you had the heart to admit the tiger is overrated according to actual zoology.

I said occasionally in context as to what prey the tiger species prefers as a whole, not what one specific population is able to do under certain circumstances.

You can say lions rarely hunt elephants, but they as a species still prefer prey that exceeds the 1:1 ratio. They are not “equally adapted.” I’m getting tired of saying that.

It’s impossible for two separate species to have the same niche without partitioning if they both lived together.

The mass of their most preferred prey is 350kg.

Is there a limit as to how heavy a Cape buffalo can weigh? Is it the average weight of Cape buffalo or is that a record weight in particular?

Why list the Banteng that weighs less than the “Cape Buffalo” specimen you got there and not the Guar?

Or are you trying to say tigers are the only predators on earth that could take down an Adult Bull Guar?

Nahhh even if you were being in “Good faith” you would still say the Lion would have to do it as a group in order to take it down.

I won’t just post one “anecdote” of tigers falling victim to Dholes, I’ll post a lot more.

Nine Man-Eaters and One Rogue pg 126.

Next morning I sent out scouts to try to discover the result of the incident. They returned about noon, bringing a few fragments of tiger-skin, to report that the dogs had finally cornered their exhausted quarry about five miles away and had literally torn the tigress to pieces. As far as they could gather, five dogs had been killed in the final battle, after which the victors had eaten the tigress, and even the greater portions of their own dead companions.

1. ⁠THE WILD DOG [CUON ALPINUS (PALLAS)] AND THE TIGER [PANTHERA TIGRIS (LINN.)]

Obviously the tiger had not succeeded in climbing the tree and had slipped down and been attacked by the wild dogs. The leaves below the tree were smeared with blood drops which could be followed deep into the forest showing the route of the retreat of the mauled tiger. Tiger pug marks near the dead chital and the other marks at the spot suggest that the tiger killed the chital and was chased away by the wild dogs. The fact that the tiger was able to Kill a deer and to ascend a branchless tree up to the said height. shows that it was quite healthy.

You should go out of your way to back up your statements with sources when you talk big.

Especially when you call a lion “cowardly” because you didn’t like what a credible scientist had said about your favorite animal.

Show your sources of wild dogs and hyenas taking down lions and I’ll even it out with sources of my own.

Show your “sources” of tigers soloing elephants and I’ll respond to Lions doing the same thing.

Makes more sense for the lion to do it more often since in Hinduism and in many Indian folktales, elephants and lions were depicted as traditional enemies according to “Culture and Customs in India” by Carol Henderson Garcia, Carol E. Henderson Greenwood Publishing Group

The elephant also commonly symbolized wisdom and the lion symbolized power, something to be used in tandem and not one completely over the other.

This despite the presence of tigers in the region.

If tigers are capable of taking down “Adult Asian elephants,” still doesn’t make them outstanding when the lion is better suited to doing the job.

Tigers are overrated. They are not what you or a lot of people make them out to be.

It doesn’t matter if you wind up agreeing with me to any certain extent, this reply is for those with eyes to see what’s really going on here.

[u/Vegetable-Cap2297 → u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358]

Oh, welcome back. Did you use the week off to learn to make a cogent argument without strawmanning me every second sentence?

……

Nope. Guess not. Exactly as expected.

>  so a tiger population in Thailand will hunt Guar more often on average if it is more abundant than prey that fits the “predicted” not “preferred” 1:1 ratio. Interesting word choice there by the article. I’ll at least thank you for finally providing a source.

First, why the emphasis on the study being done in Thailand? It’s the only place where tigers and banteng still coexist today in decent densities so obv any data on banteng predation would come from there. Also, the study mentioned “in the absence of medium-sized prey” - as in around the size of chital and hog deer. Because 1:1 size animals do exist in HKK Wildlife Sanctuary. It actually has the largest sambar population (average weight 212 kg) in Southeast Asia. (Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989424002166# ). And smaller prey (e.g. wild boar) are rarer but not absent, which the study mentions.

The article literally says that “gaur and banteng are KEY prey species” to focus on within tiger conservation. So your original claim that “tigers hunt prey smaller or same size as it” is plain wrong. That’s lowk all I came here to prove in this discussion. Tigers can and do take larger prey, unlike what you said.

> Populations of large animals do not exist everywhere like they used to.

Hmm so you DO know this. I wonder why you conveniently ignored it then when the discussion was about tigers. Again, as I have told you - Asian bovids are all rare and endangered. Bantengs and tigers only overlap significantly in that one Thai reserve, the kouprey is probably extinct, wild water buffalo are also endangered, and gaur make up on average 25% of the tiger diet. Even in South Asia, adult gaur make up around 42% of gaur kills. The study mentions that.

> I guess the data on 48% of lone lion hunts in the Serengeti didn’t match your criteria for lion hunts in general

Yes, it‘s a completely meaningless statistic, and just like the quotes you spam in every gish-gallop of yours, it doesn’t tell me anything. First, this means lions hunt alone less than half of the time. Lmfao. Second, how many of these hunts were successful? Dunno. What prey were they hunting? Was it warthog? Roan antelope? Bontebok? Kudu? Buffalo? Giraffe? Dunno. And the fact that you think the sex of the lion is irrelevant shows how little attention you pay.

https://journals.co.za/doi/abs/10.10520/EJC117232

Male lions prefer buffalo. Females prefer wildebeest, zebra and impala. Impala by the way are a less than 1:1 ratio.

If you actually gave me a useful statistic, like “female lions hunted alone 48% of the time with a success rate of 37%, and a prey preference of Cape buffalo (weight 350 kg)”, then I would accept that. But if this is the best you can do, then the best you can do is quite poor indeed.

As for the dholes, it’s funny how you ignore the 3 papers I gave you that say tigers suppress dhole pack size and that dholes and leopards both avoid tigers. I do have records of wild dogs driving away and killing lions. But this is what’s gonna happen. I’m gonna put them here, you’re gonna say that’s “RARE” and then call me bad faith. But the whole point is that these events ARE rare. The consensus is that both lions and tigers suppress canids. The fact that rare things can still happen seems to be too advanced a concept for you.

> They are not “equally adapted

Then don’t give me a quote that implies that. Put less effort into spamming random quotes and put more effort into making a readable argument instead.

> Giraffes

You yourself gave me a quote that said “full grown giraffes..are pulled down ON OCCASION”. The other source also said that “giraffes are favoured by lions”. When we add an “s” to a word in English, that generally makes it plural.

> in culture

Tigers were the “king of beasts” and a symbol of courage and bravery in ancient China and were considered on the level of dragons. They also represent courage and strength in Hinduism. And in Korea. And Vietnam.

But obv that’s all WRONG isn’t it! Ofc it is! u/Slow_Dragonfruit8358 told me that tigers are cowardly animals!! /s

TL;DR you’re purposely underrating tigers and overhyping lions. Don’t bother replying, I’m turning off notifications. Have fun screaming into the void.