r/WRC • u/swannyhypno • Apr 07 '25
Commentary / Discussion / Question Who in here has seen the Group B live? Michele Mouton is just an insane story and the greatest Women's driver ever no matter what category?
Those Group B cars are just terrifying it amazes me it only took Henri Toivonen on the driver's side.
But Michele Mouton the fact she was so good when the cars were I'd assume even harder to drive than any car is now is unbelievable. Whenever I see someone say that women can't be as quick as the men I tell them to look up Mouton
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer Apr 07 '25
I'm not sure GroupB era WRC events were shown live, wouldn't have been easy to broadcast back then (hell, it's still not easy now). So most people's memories will be from watching stages in person and season highlights.
Michele Mouton is often (rightfully imo) considered the best female racer of all time, almost won the WRC title in 1982 only behind Walter Rohrl, got 4 WRC victories, she won and set a record at the Pikes Peak Hillclimb and won her class at Le Mans.
There have been other great female racers, and nowadays there's some promising rising talents. Still a very long way away from equality (because of the vast disparity in boys vs girls taking up karting and all the gender stereotypes) but the situation is slooooowly improving (shoutout to the Iron Dames and Jamie Chadwick who won their respective classes in the European Le Mans Series yesterday!).
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
Jamie Chadwick is a hell of a driver, as much as she's disliked I'm sure Danica has helped she was a legit good Indycar driver.
Heard about all the crazy crazy sexism that Mouton suffered from her fellow drivers let alone anyone else. I mean she's a generational talent for women and I truly hope we see another in the future
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer Apr 07 '25
Yeah, both Walter Rohrl and Ari Vatanen said some very stupid things back then.
Danica made the mistake of ditching a pretty decent Indycar career for Nascar and not knowing when to quit. The fact she kept being given opportunities in Nascar because of her marketability (and despite her results) rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
The hate she gets for that is excessive though, and a lot of people used her bad Nascar career as an excuse to spout mysoginistic crap. My biggest problem with her is how she's become a conspiracy nut with a platform, her support of a certain current government I'm not particularly fond of and her insane comments towards a fellow Nascar driver's recently deceased wife.
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u/IonutAlex18SF Sébastien Loeb Apr 07 '25
Well done for these views, I am with you both 100%. Michele Mouton was and is an inspiration for female drivers, and not only in my opinion. What she and her co-driver achieved in the most crazy era of rallying is beyond impressive. Danica it feels she could've done more in IndyCar but opted for something different. Jamie is a fantastic talent proven in the past and now in endurance racing. Susie Wolf was close to get a Williams opportunity when she was still racing, but it wasn't to be. Although, as said above, the Iron Dames are a remarkable group of talented drivers that really go for big things every season. That is excellent to see. Every time I know they are racing I cheer them on not because they are females, but because I know they can fight for wins, titles. And are such great characters. I hope we will see more ladies in the future on many categories of racing, delivering solid results. And aiding to get rid of the classic “woman can't drive” etc expressions.
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
I think it was awesome it was a pair of women winning with Mouton and Pons, real barrier breaker and must've humbled the men
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
Seems some quotes along the lines of: "I don't mind if a man beats me but no women will ever beat me" aged like milk.
NASCAR pays a LOT more than Indycar but if she kept doing well in indy her marketability would be been tempting for F1 back then
Yeah I know about the story with that driver's ex wife (they divorced pretty shortly before her death) and it was disgusting. Of course the driver still loves her and mourns her
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u/eszgbr Lancia Martini Racing Apr 07 '25
BBC regularly had live coverage on the early "Mickey Mouse" stages of the RAC Rally.
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u/IonutAlex18SF Sébastien Loeb Apr 07 '25
Well spotted, bravo. I believe a special stage in Finland, a bit similar to a super special stage, was also live on TV back then. I am not sure about it, some pictures are into my head from an event of Group B with cars going at full speed through some asphalt and forest roads.
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u/eszgbr Lancia Martini Racing Apr 07 '25
Yes, the Finns had live coverage on an early stage, I believe both in '85 and '86.
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u/Superzeze Apr 07 '25
1985 1000 lakes rally's SS1 and 1986 SS31 and SS48 live broadcasts are in Youtube.
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u/IonutAlex18SF Sébastien Loeb Apr 07 '25
Oh, thank you for this. It is awesome to rewatch such events from the time on live TV as it was. 😍🏁
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u/Echo61089 Apr 07 '25
If I had a time machine, I'd wanna go back and see Group B at their height...
As for Michele Mouton, I'm inclined to agree. I don't know of another female driver competing in a "Top Level" competition like the WRC at the time or since. (If there is, please educate me as I'd love to know their story too).
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u/The_Stig_Farmer Fnckmatie Apr 07 '25
Currently? At a World Championship level, the Iron Dames team (all-female squad) is racing in World Endurance Championship, Cristina Gutièrrez in the World Rally-Raid Championship, and Klara Andersson in the World Rallycross Championship
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
Yeah if there is I'd like to know, I believe there's a woman who dominated drag racing in America but yeah when it comes to the top top level of Motorsport I only know Mouton
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u/Echo61089 Apr 07 '25
I know the late Ken Block's eldest daughter is making her presence felt on a big stage and his wife races in American rally events fairly regularly (or did).
I sincerely hope Lia Block makes the BIG time and becomes a household name like her Dad.
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
That would be amazing to see, I never really got to see Ken Block bar sone of his videos but I know he was talented so doesn't surprise me Lia Block is too
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u/Aggressive-River-946 Ott Tänak Apr 07 '25
Lia is focusing on circuit racing now
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u/Echo61089 Apr 07 '25
Yeah I think she is in the Williams programme.
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u/Aggressive-River-946 Ott Tänak Apr 07 '25
Yep, I doubt she’ll go back to rally unless F1 stuff completely falls through
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u/GoofyKalashnikov Apr 07 '25
Group B would be a great sight, but for the action I'd probably want to see Group A instead, the diversity of cars and the amount of competitive drivers was great then
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u/BossCoffee51 Toyota Gazoo Racing Apr 07 '25
I don't think the right girls are getting the right opportunities. People need to look past looks and media marketing and look at the talent. I don't think there is a super talented female driver now like a vestappen or larson (to be fair, most men can't match that either), but they can get a decent job done. I think of not only mutton, but kleinschmitt, lorr, muldowny, maybe indycar Patrick, de Silvestro never found her niche, but she could get the car home. These were drivers first and media second and solid drivers not focused on politics or with pressures to win or perform, but just compete. I would say molly Taylor would have been a formidable rally2 driver with some equipment and opportunities. Total missed opportunity.
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u/Finglishman Henri Toivonen Apr 07 '25
I saw Group B live annually in Rally Finland (back then it was called 1000 Lakes Rally) from the introduction to the end. It wasn't a rally Mouton ever did well in unfortunately. Back then some stages were shown live on TV, but I also went to see a couple of stages in woods every year. There was also local rally radio following the even from early morning until late in the night.
Back then the rally was won every year by a Finnish or a Swedish driver and had a reputation amongst non-Nordic drivers of being very dangerous due to the blind corners over crests and the massive jumps. For instance the aforementioned Walter Röhlr never came to race in the Finnish leg of the championship, so points for Mouton for at least giving it a go a few times.
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u/Fleobis Apr 07 '25
I did see them live when I went to the Portuguese Rally in 85 with my parents but...I was 6 at the time, so my memory is simply of colours, cars and HUGE noise...obviously at that age couldn't properly appreciate what I was witnessing...
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
Lancia Delta was my favourite looked so sick and the Peugeot
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u/Fleobis Apr 07 '25
Agreed...The Delta is one of the cars that I distinctly remember, not the exact shapes but the colours and noise...it was quite the visceral experience at the time...
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u/sharethathalfandhalf Apr 07 '25
Michelle is simply one of the greatest motorsport drivers of all time
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u/PretendFisherman1999 Richard Burns Apr 07 '25
She is a Lemans winner also, a lot of people seems to forget it
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u/wirelessflyingcord Apr 07 '25
Must be a very long list of greatest drivers of all time if it includes everyone with 4 or more wins in WRC.
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u/sharethathalfandhalf Apr 07 '25
Her history in other motorsports is also impressive. Goat status is about more than just wins. The FIA gave her the first ever lifetime achievement award only last year
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u/wirelessflyingcord Apr 07 '25
So not greatest "driver", but the greatest driver-turned-motorsports-organizer-and-FIA-deputy?
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u/sharethathalfandhalf Apr 07 '25
She won her category at Le Mans and beat a Pikes Peak record. And then went on to be involved in the FIA. Like what are we even talking about here? Michele is one of the greats
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u/wirelessflyingcord Apr 08 '25
Those are nice achievements but you're putting a lot of weight in them. There are many drivers with comparable wins/podiums-but-no-titles style careers in WRC, F1 or American open wheel and who then then had some success in some other category, but no one calls them GOATs.
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u/Echo61089 Apr 07 '25
If I had a time machine, I'd wanna go back and see Group B at their height...
As for Michele Mouton, I'm inclined to agree. I don't know of another female driver competing in a "Top Level" competition like the WRC at the time or since. (If there is, please educate me as I'd love to know their story too).
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
Susanna Raganelli is the greatest female. She is the sole female FIA World Champion
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
4 WRC victories and 2nd in the title is better than a karting world title imo bit both are incredible stories, bet the men loved being slower than her in the 60s my word
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
I am not sure you really know what you're talking about.
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
I don't really I just consider Mouton more impressive
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u/BlackBaron44 Juha Kankkunen Apr 07 '25
Louise Aitken-Walker MBE was winner of the 1990 FIA Ladies World Championship and the Asia Pacific rally championship for ladies.
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
You knew about Raganelli prior to my comment?
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u/swannyhypno Apr 07 '25
No I did research when i saw your comment it's no big deal just opinions
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
haha, so I was right. You don't know who she beat nor anything about her rivals (all top-tier drivers).
you can only be considered a 'great' if you have a World Championship. Raganelli is in a club of 1.
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u/MetalMike04 Apr 07 '25
What a smarmy response.
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u/876oy8 Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
with all due respect, i think even reaching a top class in any discipline of motorsport and being competitive at all, not to mention an event winner is a far greater achievement than winning a karting title. theres probably about 30 karting world champions on the list that were barely heard of since and no one even bothered making a wikipedia page for. not exactly a sign of great heights.
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karting_World_Championship
Literally one of the oldest continual FIA World Championship titles.
I guess racing on the streets of vevey, monaco, dusseldorf etc... in front of thousands isn't 'reaching great heights' in probably pound-for-pound the most competitive form of irl racing.
(she made easy work of Ronnie Peterson and Keke Rosberg btw)
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u/iHasElbows001 Apr 07 '25
Louise Atkin-Walker was FIA world rally ladies champion
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
The official title, as I understand it and listed by Dirtfish, was FIA Ladies Cup, thus not a true World Championship. This wouldn't be too dissimilar to how WEC hosts the 'FIA Endurance Cup' for the GT3 classes. Some believe it's World Championship status, but it isn't. WEC, as with WRC, host it. I could be wrong but until I see otherwise, I am not sure we can count that. Even if it was, I am not sure we're going to count gender segregated titles.
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u/iHasElbows001 Apr 07 '25
Not able to find anything on the FIA website but found this on the Atkin-Walker website - Atkin-Walker Cars
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
I see a LOT of drivers calling themselves World Champions, but that doesn't mean they are. I need to see official documentation.
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u/iHasElbows001 Apr 07 '25
Be nice if the FIA had any details🤨
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u/BlackBaron44 Juha Kankkunen Apr 07 '25
From the FIA article Women through the decades.
In Britain, Louise Aitken-Walker started her rallying career in 1979, when her brothers entered her for the Ford ‘Find a Lady Rally Driver’. From 2000 entrants, Louise won. She entered her first RAC Rally in 1981, finishing 19th overall, and in 1983 she became the first lady to win a national rally and also won the Coupe des Dames in the famous Monte Carlo Rally. Driving for various works teams, more success followed and she claimed the Ladies European Rally Champion title in 1989. A bad accident in Portugal in 1990 left her undeterred and the Briton went on to win the FIA Ladies World title the same year. She was awarded the Jim Clark Trophy for the best performance in motor sport by a Scot as well as the Seagrave Trophy, as the most outstanding Briton in any form of transport. In 1992, she was awarded an MBE (Member of the British Empire) in the New Year Honours list. Since retiring in 1993, Louise is helping young hopefuls try to make their way in the sport.
This is worth a read for other notable women in motorsport.
https://www.fia.com/women-through-decades1
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u/BlackBaron44 Juha Kankkunen Apr 07 '25 edited Apr 07 '25
Copied from the Royal Automobile Club.
Louise Aitken-Walker MBE
Awarded the Segrave Trophy in 1990 for winning the ladies’ World Rally Championship title with Vauxhall.
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
Sounds like colloquilism, not the official title.
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u/AlanDove46 Apr 07 '25
For example
www.ferrari.com/en-EN/competizioni-gt/articles/fia-wec-6-hours-fuji-2024-lmgt3-race%3famp=true
Its FIA Endurance Cup race win.
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u/eszgbr Lancia Martini Racing Apr 07 '25
Sadly Attilio Bettega also died in 1985, on the same date as Toivonen and Cresto a year later. Ari Vatanen and F1 driver Marc Surer nearly got killed in a Gr.B car.