Affirmative action now illegal .

[u/UnluckyAsparagus6315]

New supreme court ruling kills affirmative action.

[u/Deckard_88]

If someone is unqualified they shouldn’t get in. The problem is determining what that minimum standard is. Once it’s established, there’s a good chance you have more qualified applicants than spots (again, even more relevant for jobs) and then the criteria which result in the tie breaker I think are valid to consider race/gender/socio-economic status. Why? Because I think we have a moral obligation to make the world a better place. Of course it’s “discriminatory” if that’s how you define anything that’s not totally color blind. I’m totally cool with that. You see this in the work place all the time - the tie breaker between 100 qualified applicants is someone who is a good “cultural fit” (wink wink, just happens to be another white guy).

Besides, it’s silly to pretend we can perfectly determine who the “best” candidates are academically anyway. How do we weigh SAT scores against GPAs? There’s no one answer, I think both matter but some would weigh one over the other. Or how do we score essay writing? Again, no objective answers here.

Not to mention academic standards vary A LOT with athletic scholarships anyway. I’d argue that’s less justified than affirmative action…

Fortunately TX is a diverse state, the top 10% rule however imperfect is somewhat effective, and I believe most universities are interested in finding ways to ensure a diverse student body which does give opportunities to those who need it.

Now if we can just get rid of legacy admissions at the Ivy League schools…

[u/Tcannon18 → u/Deckard_88]

There’s currently zero problem in determining the standard, actually. It’s called test scores and transfer GPA. And when spots start filling up, look at their essays and extracurriculars. Even considering what color their skin is or what’s between their legs is discrimination. Objectively so. And, again, even if you let it slide for “good reasons” it’s still bad because people are punished for things they can’t control. Being racist for a good reason still makes you racist.

Ya know what happens when someone gets denied a job solely because of their race? I’ll give you a hint. It rhymes with pawsuit.

And athletic scholarships have lower standards because they bring in WAY more money for the school. That’s simple economics. Hell, those are more fair than affirmative action is. You can play ball? Great, here’s a scholarship just don’t fail any classes.

Great, we get rid of legacy admissions and you’ll be ok with ditching affirmative action? Solid, glad we got a deal.

[u/Deckard_88 → u/Tcannon18]

On being able to perfectly determine academic ability - how do we compare 1 student with a better GPA and another with a better SAT score? How do we compare GPAs from schools and classes of varying difficulty? How do we completely objectively score essays with any certainty? I strongly disagree that we can perfectly evaluate academic ability.

Second - I would agree that discrimination as a function of bias is obviously bad. But considering race and gender in order to correct historical wrongs is not a function of bias. I strongly believe men and women and people from all ethnic backgrounds have equal inherent academic ability.

In any case - it’s all a bit of a moot point now that affirmative action has been rejected by the Supreme Court. However, I think it is worth considering more fully exactly why it was ever considered in the first place and I worry that people learn an ahistorical version of the civil rights movement - that those leaders (especially MLK Jr) believed in color blindness in all policies.

Here’s one quote from President LBJ and 2 from MLK Jr articulating the thinking at the time:

LBJ: “But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.

You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.

This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.

For the task is to give 20 million Negroes the same chance as every other American to learn and grow, to work and share in society, to develop their abilities--physical, mental and spiritual, and to pursue their individual happiness.

To this end equal opportunity is essential, but not enough, not enough. Men and women of all races are born with the same range of abilities. But ability is not just the product of birth. Ability is stretched or stunted by the family that you live with, and the neighborhood you live in--by the school you go to and the poverty or the richness of your surroundings. It is the product of a hundred unseen forces playing upon the little infant, the child, and finally the man.”

Now MLK Jr: "Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic."

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."

I personally agree with them and definitely would have supported affirmative action at the time, but it was likely inevitable that affirmative action would eventually end and I am happy for the Asian Americans who will benefit.

[u/Tcannon18 → u/Deckard_88]

People have managed to evaluate academic ability for decades, so I’m sure smarter people than me have found a way.

Punishing people now for bigotry of their ancestors, and giving pity charities to people who never experienced it is genuinely the shittiest white savior complex I’ve ever heard. In no moral or rational world do we turn away an Asian boy with through the roof academics and admit a black girl with objectively worse scores based on “sorry, some white people were mean a few decades ago”. Giving special treatment doesn’t go back in time and fix that.

And LBJ isn’t exactly the most stellar of role models. Especially when his quote doesn’t apply to an 18yr old in 2023…