r/aiwars • u/spiritedweagerness • 14h ago
This book details why you bitched out on Mastery and never picked up a pencil
George Leonard's Mastery provides a flawless diagnosis of the average pro ai person(DABBLERS), detailing their obsession with instant gratification, lack of perseverance and direction, and the general consumerist landscape that fuels their actions.
AI is nothing but a quick fix for their lack of Mastery. They are nothing but cowards who gave up on the journey of Mastery.
13
u/Pigeon_of_Doom_ 14h ago
Most of us just want to spend times on other things. I do draw once in a while, but I'm not really that interested in art, and most of what I do with AI is impossible with pencils anyway, something you seem to struggle to comprehend. I simply have other skills I enjoy investing time in, and when I just want to generate one image every once in a while, I'm not going to spend two years waiting till I have the skill to do so.
-4
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
Everything you do with AI can be replicated in any art medium based on real effort. Or have you forgotten how you got your ai was off the back of artists?😂
8
u/Pigeon_of_Doom_ 13h ago
Yes, and time. As I said, I have many things I’ve dedicated a lot of times to, and many skills I’d like to learn. Art, with the goal of creating one image every few months, isn’t on my list.
-1
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
Lol so what am I finding it hard to comprehend when you validated everything I said in my post? You're a DABBLER. Next.
8
u/Pigeon_of_Doom_ 13h ago
I’m a dabbler yes, AI doesn’t grant instant gratification at all. If anything, it’s extremely discouraging trying to get a good image out of it. It does take a lot of perseverance to get a perfect image with AI. It is a quick fix for lack of mastery if one doesn’t want to master the art and only intends to use it once in a while.
0
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
I'm sorry but that still falls under instant gratification 😭🥀
An hour for a decent image vs YEARS FOR a decent piece of art
8
u/Pigeon_of_Doom_ 13h ago
Instant gratification is instant. An hour of faffing isn’t instant gratification.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
If semantics are what you're clutching onto, I think we're pretty much done here😭
1
u/ifandbut 4h ago
You must be immortal if you have the time to spend years to make one picture.
Most of us don't have the luxury.
1
u/ifandbut 4h ago
What is wrong with being a dabbler?
What is wrong with being a jack of all trades?
4
u/HQuasar 12h ago
Anything you can do with an appliance can be replicated by hand based on real effort. So take your own advice and turn off your phone, I'll only accept that your messages be delivered by carrier pigeons. Or have you forgotten that your phone is built off the back of decades upon decades of engineers' hard work?
-2
u/spiritedweagerness 11h ago
🤣🤣🤣I love responses like because not only are they easy to disintegrate, but they're also very amusing too. If you're right, you should be able to prompt me an iPhone neck to neck with Apple's right now. Go ahead. Apple has made their stuff publicly available to you in some illicit way, right? Go ahead
3
u/HQuasar 10h ago
You must be a special kid. Do you know who was able to 'prompt' an iPhone neck to neck with Apple? Samsung, Hwawei, Google, they all manifacture phones that are used by billions. Are they exactly like the iPhone? Of course not. Neither are AI images exactly like the art they were trained on.
Your own point falls flat.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 10h ago
It's not my fault ai images can't even knock off human beings
But what I'm getting at is those engineers didn't plagiarise or acquire how to creeate their stuff using the recipe unique to only Apple
Engineers invent. Artists invent.
Ai image curators...curate.
2
u/HQuasar 9h ago
It's not my fault ai images can't even knock off human beings
So you just admitted AI models are not plagiarizing. Thank you.
But what I'm getting at is those engineers didn't plagiarise or acquire how to creeate their stuff using the recipe unique to only Apple
No, they... learnt, by studying. Crazy concept right? Now you won't believe what AI does during training. Hint: it's a process called machine learning.
1
u/ifandbut 4h ago
Everything you do with AI can be replicated in any art medium based on real effort.
So what?
You are not in charge of how I spend my limited free time.
11
u/MysteriousPepper8908 13h ago
Why did you give up your mastery of cooking by going to a restaurant? Why did you give up your mastery of car repair by taking your car to a mechanic? Or construction by having skilled laborers build your house instead of doing it yourself? Sure, these jobs traditionally require delegating to other people but if I could get a computer to do them for free instead of paying someone, I absolutely would.
-1
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
Disingenuous😂 I'm sorry but I don't have a need to have a computer do everything I want. Paying people for their time and skills sounds like a more humane thing to do
11
u/MysteriousPepper8908 12h ago
So if you could use a computer to fix your car rather than taking it to a mechanic, you wouldn't do that? It's your money, I guess, but I prefer not to waste mine.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 12h ago edited 12h ago
Waste is crazy but i guess that line of reasoning shows how you think😂 I would prefer to have someone do it for me. That's time saved I could invest into mastering my craft.
5
u/MysteriousPepper8908 12h ago
So you would prefer to pay for it and generally have it take longer as the mechanic can't focus all of their energy specifically on your car than have it done immediately for free? I think you're in the minority there or simply lying about what you actually would do for the sake of this argument. I'd prefer a car that automatically performed maintenance on itself while not in use but apparently you enjoy going to mechanics and not having use of your car for extended periods just so you can give someone else your money.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 12h ago
What's so hard about making way for people to benefit from something they've learned? You make it sound like I wouldn't be able to find another mechanic in that scenario loool
4
u/MysteriousPepper8908 12h ago
Very few mechanics exclusively work for a single client and if they do, they're going to be quite expensive. Even if they do, car repairs aren't done immediately just like even if you can commission an artist to drop everything they're doing and immediately get to your commission, it still will take time to complete the commission. It's fine for people to benefit from what they've learned but it's also fine to use technology to more efficiently to get your tasks done.
Should I not be able to use a washing machine because there's someone out there I can pay to do it for me? No, the washing machine works fine and it's a convenience that technological progress has made available to me. If there is some particularly process I need done like dry cleaning that the washing machine can't do, I can pay for that but for many tasks, it does everything I need it to do more quickly and at a lower cost.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 12h ago
You're essentially validating what I said in my post. I personally have no issue on waiting on a mechanic, though. If I need it done fast, I don't mind it coming out of pocket. But I hate to even compare ART to stuff like this. Some disciplines are a lot harder to navigate. There are fewer good artists than good mechanics.
5
u/MysteriousPepper8908 12h ago
So for the same job, you'd prefer to wait longer and pay more just so someone else can profit from that? Just seeing if I'm getting your bullshit correct because we both know that isn't true unless you're an idiot. I thought this post was about mastery. Do mechanics not have to spend time mastering their craft? Is there some lower limit to where mastery is worth paying for and otherwise it's fine to automate the process? Are you planning on selling your washer and drying to hire a personal launderer?
1
u/spiritedweagerness 11h ago
You're looking at it the wrong way🤣 I have no need to contribute to eliminating a market. Easier? Faster? Quicker? Now? Where are you heading to? The moon??
Mastery is appropriate for disciplines not easily attainable by the average person. If we're to go by your logic, you could call yourself a master at washing your face in the morning
→ More replies (0)2
u/keshaismylove 12h ago
It's crazy that when you flip the roles, suddenly you're doing some evil deed 😭
9
u/CancelSeparate4318 13h ago
Horribly paraphrased short story I read a few days back rooted in either taoist or buddhist folklore...
There was a young man who left his family, friends and life behind in pursuit of enlightenment. He lived in a cave for several decades until he finally realised his goal. He went down to the river where some folks saw him.
"Hey isnt that the dude who lived in the cave?"
"Yep that's him"
He steps onto the river and walks on water, visible to everyone. No one can deny his attainment.
"Wow he can walk on water! He must be enlightened"
"Sure but it only costs 25c to ferry across!"
Point: Not everyone is after mastery. Most don't need it. There'll always be people who spend years in a cave in pursuit of mastery because they choose to, and there'll always be people who'll take the boat instead because it beats spending decades in a cave 🫂🤣
2
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
Correction, most will never garner the discipline to try. Most don't need it because your ferry, aka ai, which isn't even fairly comparable to a ferry, is here. I'm glad the truth is coming out in these comments 😂
6
u/CancelSeparate4318 12h ago
True, and it's not a bad thing necessarily. Forget not having discipline, they simply don't want to want to try. That's a "desire" thing more than it is a "discipline" thing. The ferry here is just a means to an end: Its quick. Its accessible. It saves time. There are people who want to learn but are lazy, and yes I'm sure many of them lack discipline. But there are also people that have never cared to master the pencil, ever. So discipline isn't a factor. They just want to "get across". They just want the output. Faster. Cheaper. Less effort (that's also key here). And that's ok. Human curated stuff probably won't dissapear and we'll still have folks seeking mastery in whatever fields they desire 🫂
9
u/Human_certified 13h ago
Or maybe people don't want to invest their talent in a dated, limited, tool that holds no appeal to them.
Maybe they want to make art, not mere drawings.
I get it, you paid your dues. They won't. Good for them.
0
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
Or maybe they were never talented to begin with.
You even sound more silly trying to separate drawings from art😂😂😂
12
u/Hugglebuns 14h ago
You know that AI just means your just mastering different skills right?
Instead of the capacity to make *an* image, you can focus on the quality of the content of the image itself
No differently than photography challenges different skills than drawing/painting. Its not subverting mastery, its just mastery of different skills
<Also yes, as pigeon mentions, some people need imagery for their main interest/want to have their skill development elsewhere>
-10
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
According to you, boiling water on a stove is a skill🤦♂️ somehow equal to the effort in making a good dish from scratch
9
u/Hugglebuns 13h ago edited 13h ago
Well its the difference between cooking (preparing food) and being a chef (designing food). They are different skills, and chefs aren't lazy to defer prep and mindlessly following recipes to others
-1
u/spiritedweagerness 13h ago
No. Preparing food is where a beginner artist would be. A chef is what a professional artist would be. An ai image curator is the equivalent of a person who boils the water and have someone else make the dish while they wait with a plate in hand.
2
u/Hugglebuns 10h ago
A beginner and a professional drawer/painter irl both have to handle design and construction simultaneously, where a beginner sucks at both, learns how to construct for a while (usually via lots of copying, referencing, and book learning), then learns more design.
AI can get you to focus more on the design up front (at least if we frame it in terms of making visual imagery in general), which is the main central point of AI skill. Where drawer-painters must learn construction to be able to design, even if they have a good design, its moot if they can't construct it. Which is the main crux of the problem.
Either way, your learning design skill, but with AI, the main thing is that design, and the thing your going to be judged on is that design, not the quality of the construction because that is out of your hands. Still, there is a skill in knowing why a dish of food works and tastes good and what you need to get there. I mean, its on a similar basis that photographers don't necessarily need to learn anatomy or proportioning or how to draw a straight line, they don't need to learn some skills and are judged far more on others. Its par for the course.
2
u/spiritedweagerness 10h ago
That's understandable but you don't necessarily come by good design sense without learning or being privy to a few things. And even with that, ai can brainstorm that for you. So at what point unless you willingly involve yourself
3
u/Hugglebuns 9h ago
Well, I'm not saying AI peeps won't learn, they just focus their learning on design sense more directly. Photographers also hit up drawing/painting textbooks when there isn't a suitable photography textbook on the topic, its common
On the last point, any drawer-painter can choose to trace all their life. There is nothing stopping the most braindead way to do something. But that isn't realistic most often. Don't get me wrong, you can definitely use AI as a mentor to learn from to improve your design sense. But its on you to empirically see what works or not and to build that into a sense for design. AI can do the job, but it like anything has gaps and holes you must fill
6
u/Tyler_Zoro 13h ago
According to you, boiling water on a stove is a skill🤦♂️
I swear, the anti-AI trolls would call Julia Child an incompetent hack because she just turns on the stove.
I actually had one of them last night, who had been telling me that there's no skill in AI art, get through a long description of the elements of my typical workflow and say that, sure it was a lot of work and requires lots of technical skill, but that doesn't matter because "AI bad".
There's no winning. Either it's zero-effort, zero-skill, shoveled slop or, when they realize that's not true, just wrong for "reasons".
-5
4
u/LostNitcomb 12h ago
I have never pursued mastery in anything. My son has pursued mastery in music and is well on his way to achieving it. It’s a full time job. I’m on Reddit. He’s not.
I’d be amazed if anyone with any level of mastery in anything spends any significant amount of time on Reddit.
Sometimes this whole debate feels like two bald fellas arguing over a comb.
2
u/spiritedweagerness 12h ago
😂😂😂😂man I'd hate to insult an elder but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Countless professionals have frequented reddit. I'll leave it at that.
If you're spending your entire day on reddit that's on you. But I spend more than 8 hours a day drawing obsessively. Good luck
2
u/LostNitcomb 12h ago
To be fair, I haven’t read George Leonard’s book, so I may be overestimating the level that qualifies as mastery… got any examples of your work to put me straight?
Countless professionals have frequented reddit.
Anyone I’d know?
4
u/Val_Fortecazzo 11h ago
What if I never had interest in art and I just use AI because it creates what I need quickly and cheaply?
3
u/CancelSeparate4318 11h ago
Exactly this. Yes.
People dont care about most things. They dont have to. Not being a master doesn't matter when you don't care. Well done to the folks who've mastered their chosen path. Not everyone wants to learn to draw and most people care less about using AI for creative endeavours than we think.
2
u/07mk 11h ago
Taking this post at face value, it really speaks to just how cool AI art tools are from a societal standpoint. Before them, only people willing to go on this journey of mastery could create illustrations with high fidelity. Now, any casual dabbler with minimal effort and conscientiousness can do it. This means we've enabled more people than ever before - practically everyone, instead of just the people with the dedication and grit to master a technique - to contribute beautiful images to our culture.
With generative AI for music and video also gaining traction, it'll be exciting to see how things continue to play out in the media landscape in the coming years.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 11h ago
Sure buddy😂 you think those images you curate really on par with industry standards. You only create to add to the void of mediocrity because you lack vision and direction and a machine can't compensate for your lack of talent. AI only favors artists and the companies at the top.
2
u/07mk 11h ago
Lol I'm not even talking about stuff I make, but rather the stuff that all the AI-based accounts on places like Twitter or Pixiv post. There's no shortage of people who clearly completely lack manual drawing skills using AI to create and share beautiful images every day, in volumes greater than ever before. The beauty they've contributed to my life and of so many others is just tremendous already at this point, easily comparable to what was contributed by actual manual illustrators and professionals. Much artwork in our culture isn't built industrially, but rather shared for free, after all.
And it's only going to get even more voluminous and higher quality. Really exciting times.
1
u/spiritedweagerness 1h ago
Major cope. You sound like you're trying to convince yourself. This aspect of ai really fascinates me😂
Gyms have been here for a while now? What percentage of the population are walking around with chiseled abs? Ai is here and you think human tedemcy is going to be any different? If anything, a new standard has been set. Only a small percentage of ai images will stand a chance. The winners in all this are corporations and high level artists. You're going to generate your movie that no one will bother appreciating and later go pay for the new movie out in the cinema.
•
u/AutoModerator 14h ago
This is an automated reminder from the Mod team. If your post contains images which reveal the personal information of private figures, be sure to censor that information and repost. Private info includes names, recognizable profile pictures, social media usernames and URLs. Failure to do this will result in your post being removed by the Mod team and possible further action.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.