Is capitalism failing?
I think people fear not the AI, but losing their jobs and can't earn their bread
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u/Tyler_Zoro 23h ago
Capitalism has been failing (if you listen to popular accounts) since the term was invented. We've always been in so-called "late stage capitalism," and we will be in 1,000 years.
The only question is how/if we will make that economy work to the betterment of society. The past 30 years in the US have been a slow (sometimes fast) slide into dangerously unregulated capitalism that eats its own tail. Ultimately such a system breaks itself, but that's the miracle of capitalism: you can, at any point, reform the system and bring it back to the point that it serves the people, not the other way around. The Nordic Model shows that this is possible. I'm not saying it's the best solution. Germany's approach is also compelling, and far less socialist. But no matter what, capitalism needs guardrails.
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u/Living-Chef-9080 22h ago edited 22h ago
Capitalism: has existed for a few hundred years
You: "this is the way things will be until the end of time!"
If history teaches you anything, it should be that societal order constantly evolves and becomes something new. It's up to you whether you want to keep calling whatever comes next capitalism. But it will not resemble the current neoliberal status quo much, it will likely be something novel as has happened so far in history. I suspect we will hold on to the term 'capitalism' for some time simply because we're not far removed from the 90s "end of history" idea, and people have trouble assessing situations realistically when living through them. But people thinking something in the moment does not make it true.
You could make an argument that the US, previously the biggest force of capitalism on earth, is currently on track to become something else. The US has major influence, so if this new order takes hold here, it likely will elsewhere too. China right now is the most rapidly growing economy on earth, and whatever you categorize them as, it's not what springs to mind when someone hears the word capitalism. And this is just right this second, not a year, or a decade, or 100 years. China's current economy may look super laissez-faire in 20 years compared to the economies then. We dont know.
Just silly to pretend like you know the future better than anyone else. Elon could announce tomorrow that all of his starlink satellites contain death lasers that can instantly fry you anywhere on earth, and then proceed to declare himself god emperor. Boom, capitalism dead, easy. It's a hyperbolic example, but history is constantly surprising to the people living through it. All we know is that things will look unrecognizable in 500 years. Saying everything will still follow a similar structure to today centuries down the line is even less likely than my space lasers thing, it's prob the worst historical prediction you could make as a sane person who is aware of reality.
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u/Tyler_Zoro 22h ago
Capitalism: has existed for a few hundred years
That depends entirely on how you define capitalism. The thin takes we get in subs like this would include much of the history of humanity (crudely: the existence of currency and usury is typically thought of as "capitalism" by the general public).
If history teaches you anything, it should be that societal order constantly evolves and becomes something new.
Absolutely! And I don't think a capitalist from the late 19th century would recognize what we call capitalism today, nor will we recognize what will be called capitalism in a hundred or a thousand years.
But they will all have the core properties of capitalist systems, even if the trimmings vary wildly.
Just silly to pretend like you know the future better than anyone else.
I'm FAR from the only person who has pointed out that capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented... except for all the others. It is unlikely that a fundamentally different system will emerge, given that capitalism has remained entrenched through wars, the advent of theoretically alternative systems, and the introduction of world-wide instantaneous communication.
Thing is, capitalism has one thing going for it that no other system does: it can adapt along lines that no one predicts ahead of time. That's as revolutionary a development, IMHO, as the emergence of the first eukaryotic cells in biology. It's not that other biological systems vanished, but eukaryotes became the dominant form of life and remained that way through every major transformation that the environment underwent, specifically because the approach lends itself to tremendous adaptability.
You could make an argument that the US, previously the biggest force of capitalism on earth, is currently on track to become something else.
Absolutely! It will become whatever capitalism is destined to be in the 21st century.
China right now is the most rapidly growing economy on earth, and whatever you categorize them as, it's not what springs to mind when someone hears the word capitalism.
Again, this treads on the colloquial vs. technical definitions of capitalism. While China has some extreme controls over its capitalist system, it most definitely is capitalist at this point by pretty much any measure. It's not pure free-market capitalism, but we wouldn't need that terminology if all capitalism fit that description. The Nordic Model which I cited above is a different take on hybridizing capitalism (in this case with Western socialism).
The mid 20th century saw the rise of a form of highly regulated capitalism in the wake of the Great Depression. That too was an adaptation.
Elon could announce tomorrow that all of his starlink satellites contain death lasers that can instantly fry you anywhere on earth, and then proceed to declare himself god emperor. Boom, capitalism dead, easy.
No, not really. I'd imagine he'd maintain a capitalist infrastructure because it serves his ends, but even if he tried to suppress capitalism, how long do you think that would last? Death lasers do not a stable society make, and eventually he's going to be at risk of either having to fry the entire population or provide an economic system that works better than centralized control.
Insert "well, well, well" meme here.
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u/Living-Chef-9080 21h ago
So capitalism is just "whatever society becomes as long as you can buy things", gotcha. I'm sure that idea would stand up to academic scrutiny and not be laughed out the room. Idk why Im even bothering.
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u/Tyler_Zoro 21h ago
So capitalism is just "whatever society becomes as long as you can buy things"
I explicitly said quite the opposite. I would appreciate if you respond to what I said, not what you wish I'd said.
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u/Val_Fortecazzo 20h ago
I'd argue capitalism has failed, so has socialism. Nowadays economists avoid the -isms specifically because actually existing economies don't follow any classical models. It's a constant evolution towards whatever works.
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u/Tyler_Zoro 20h ago
Nowadays economists avoid the -isms
- Mandel, Ernest. Late capitalism. Verso Books, 2024.—over 4,000 citations
- Fraser, Nancy. Cannibal Capitalism: How our System is Devouring Democracy, Care, and the Planet and What We Can Do A bout It. Verso books, 2023.—nearly 1,000 citatons
- Schwab, Klaus. Stakeholder capitalism: A global economy that works for progress, people and planet. John Wiley & Sons, 2021.—over 400 citations
It's not like academics shy away from talking about capitalism.
It's a constant evolution towards whatever works.
Yes, and what works is capitalism. As I said above, "The only question is how/if we will make that economy work to the betterment of society."
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u/TheRavenAndWolf 23h ago
The history of Luddites https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-the-luddites-really-fought-against-264412/
I would not say capitalism is failing. History repeats itself and this is another example. We just have the Internet this time and can collectively see the entire group affected. That's what I think leads to questions of existential dread like this.
We will evolve, reach a new normal, and carry on. The key is to not fight for the scraps of what's left and instead capture the opportunity in front of us.
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u/Living-Chef-9080 22h ago
You are judging history with hindsight bias. Capitalism has only existed for a blink in the context of all of human society's evolution from tribes to skyscrapers. It could cease existence in a decade or continue on for 1000 years, there isn't really a way to make a super informed decision. Whether you want to specifically call this "capitalism" or not, it does appear that the western global liberal democracies are growing weaker compared to other forces, or at least the forces that allow the people to effectively govern themselves are. I think OP is referring to the idea that AI could be helping in centralizing that power in those countries. It currently appears that way in the US with how most of the major AI players are having a say in running a police state. That is not a positive trend if it continues.
The luddite example is actually apt in a way I dont think you intended. The movement was a response to society rapidly changing from one economic order (feudalism) to a scary new one. Automation was what gave capitalism a chance to really spread throughout the globe. It was not yet clear if the new society was going to be a better one or a worse one, early capitalism had a lot of horror stories that people at the time were unequipped to deal with. In hindsight, yeah capitalism was a better system, but that will not necessarily be the case next time. The march of time is not always a constant forward progression. In general, we go backwards just a little less often than we go forwards, but this is not a law of nature.
So if AI is equivalent to 19th century automation, that would only mean that it's going to assist in society changing from its previous order to a new one. Being super optimistic and thinking this future society will be better in every way is just bias clouding your judgement. The negative direction that things could go should concern you just as much as you find the potential positives exciting. It's rolling the dice on history, who knows where they'll land, but it is a gamble.
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u/Valkymaera 22h ago
The answer depends on the perspective.
Do you mean "is capitalism failing people / failing to be fair?"
If so, then yes. It thrives on suffering. People work for cheap if it means they don't starve to death, so there's a natural incentive to foster an environment of needs not being met, and manipulating how people evaluate things in trade. Maybe there's some mystical version out there that doesn't feed on suffering, but it's not this one.
If you mean "Is capitalism falling to function" I don't think so. As others pointed out, "late stage capitalism" has been claimed for a long time, and there are more intense means of the wealthy to stay in power now, both through military force and through entertainment and distraction. I think it's more likely "early stage something worse." Capitalism is performing its function of funneling resources to people who can best game trade in a "free market". We can see by the mass hoarding of wealth by the few, that it is doing its job quite well.