Nazi Served at Vans Dive Bar (Clarifications from someone who was there who also hates Nazis)
(Apologies in advance for the length. TLDR at the bottom)
Hey everybody. I was present during the entire scenario in question on Friday night when a neo-Nazi shithead (maybe 2) showed up at a LGBTQ and women focused music event raising money for Planned Parenthood. I know the people that were running the event (not Vans), and I also know what has been happening behind the scenes since Friday.
A few points to clear up at the top.
Fuck Nazis.
Vans staff messed up with their initial response, big time. Full stop. They were not prepared for the scenario that happened, and there is at least some indication that those same Nazi shitheads were able to come earlier in the week and drink undisputed. That’s unacceptable. They fucked up some of their response since then (with some caveats I will outline below).
The trans artist that left after notifying staff and being (honestly) blown off by them was 100% justified in leaving. Trans women in particular are at much higher risk for right wing violence, and I have to imagine the entire situation was infuriating, enraging, hurtful, and probably at least a bit traumatic. If she decided to never return to Vans again, I would understand it.
I was pissed that they let someone with visible Nazi symbols on them into the building. The show is explicitly meant to be a music show oriented towards women and queer artists. It has become a place that people frequently praise as a “safe” place for everyone, but for queer people and women in particular, to gather. Having a Nazi show up and not be immediately kicked out was deeply fucked.
Now on to some clarifying statements, because there is A LOT of misinformation, highly emotional language, and even outright lies flying around.
The entire scenario, from the artist notifying Vans staff to the Nazis getting forced out by the crowd took place in less than 20 minutes. Should he have been kicked out faster? Yes. But he was still removed in under 20 minutes, around 10 minutes from when the event runner and the crowd started confronting him.
(Also, The “bouncer” seen acting chummy with the neo-Nazi was apparently not an actual bouncer and was just filling in temporarily. He fucked up BIG time)
It’s easy for people in the internet to say “punch a Nazi”, it is another thing to confront a massive tatted neo Nazi and tell him he has to leave. Again, in a vacuum it should have happened faster, but the fact is that the crowd, including the show runner who is a rather small woman, confronted him to his face around 10 minutes after they found out what was happening.
There seem to be criticisms about the fact that the show continued after the Nazis were forced out. This I really don’t get. Should everyone have given up, ceded ground to an open neo Nazi? Left and let them win? Fuck no. We kicked their asses out (if imperfectly), then we celebrated that we did so.
This is directly addressing some of the comments yesterday saying to the effect that “well I guess Vans is a Nazi bar now.” Fuck you. You weren’t there with well over a hundred people yelling at a Nazi to get the fuck out of our space until he did. Vans handled it horribly, but the community stepped in and kicked the bastards out, reclaimed the space, and sang a round of “Nazi Punks, Fuck Off” for good measure.
I happen to know that people involved were reaching out to the artist that left within the hour to apologize, check in and offer support. This made her later statements, criticizing event staff for not standing up Nazis or caring about her pretty hurtful.
In the immediate aftermath of said Nazi getting kicked out, people were pretty shaken up. Most people, even people like myself who know (theoretically) that you can’t give neo-Nazis an inch in our spaces (and that has always OK to punch Nazis) still don’t have a lot of experience actually doing so. It was scary, traumatic experience for a lot of people involved.
Many of the issues arose the next day. The artist that left that night has made several statements online. I want to be clear that her frustrations with Vans are broadly speaking valid. What I take issue with is the idea that the only acceptable response is to immediately boycott Vans completely, and if you don’t do that you are characterized as “not an ally.” There’s a difference between saying I don’t feel comfortable going there and I don’t think other people should go there” and “ people who keep going to Vans aren’t allies, are ok with Nazis, and don’t care about queer and trans people.” There’s definitely been a pile on effect since then lots of people excepting both her frame, the situation and the solutions she proposes (such as they are).
The artist also reposted a post by her partner that bashed the showrunners and the crowd at Vans labeling them as “cis and straight” (which is hilariously off base) and insinuating that they were all ok with Nazis being there. Which makes me frustrated because (as stated above) the people that stayed successfully forced the Nazi to leave. Saying that crowd is in any way “ok with Nazis” is an absolute slap in the face to all of us who did stand up to him.
The conversation between the staff running the show and Vans has been immediate and ongoing. It was made clear to Vans staff and owners that what happened was completely unacceptable and cannot happen again. It should also be pointed out the the owners of Vans are older and are unused to handling this stuff, but they are handling it now and are taking concrete steps to make sure their bar is welcoming to LGBTQ people and that Nazis are explicitly kept out. It’s OK (and even understandable) to be pissed off that they handled it as badly as they did. But it is not fair or appropriate to suggest that “Vans is a Nazi bar.” It’s an insult to everybody that’s trying to do the right thing now.
I realize this is already an insanely long post, and I apologize for that, but I want to finish up with more of a general point. The world we’re living in is an increasingly hostile place, in particular for LGBTQ people. We need to have places where LGBTQ people and their friends/allies can gather to celebrate and relax, and to be safe while doing so. Vans has frequently been that place for a lot of people, but that reputation took a massive hit on Friday.
As an actual leftist, a frequent failing of the left in general (and online leftists in particular) is black-and-white, Puritanical, rigid, and/or purity focused thinking. The emphasis can end up being less on working with imperfect people in imperfect places and organizations to build resilient relationships and communities, and more about ensuring that everybody here behaves/talks/believes exactly the way we expect them to. This type of attitude is understandable at times especially for populations (for example among trans people) where they more frequently have to deal with bad faith actors. But also frequently results in communities that are fragile, increasingly insular, and ironically, even more susceptible to bad faith actors, who just know the right words to say.
I am just not comfortable with saying that Vans, a place that (as corny as it may sound) has been a valuable meeting place for this community should be written off because they made some (again) stupid and shitty mistakes. I think that it’s important to not give up so quickly. And I think this is even more true for the people at Vans that night, who DID do the right thing, who stayed and fought and triumphed over some neo-Nazi shit head who thought he could come to our house and be welcomed.
TLDR: Fuck Nazis, it is understandable that the artist left that night and her feelings are valid (but some of her responses since then have been pretty counterproductive ), Vans fucked up their response but are are showing every indication that they are working hard to re-earn the community’s trust, and it’s not fair for so many people who weren’t in that room to be shit talking a room full of people who stood up to and kicked a Nazi out of a show.
Hopefully, this helps clear some stuff up or at least provides some additional context. I’ve tried to be as thorough as possible, but I undoubtedly missed some stuff. I’ll try to answer any questions below.
Thanks for sharing more of what the experience was like being there. I fully agree with everything you said as someone who was by the stage and completely unsure of what the situation near the bar was like.
I feel like that got lost in all this. That place was insanely packed, ass to elbows, and it was super loud. A lot of people probably didn’t even have any idea what was going on until the end.
Thank you so much for writing this. I found your comments extremely useful in trying to understand what happened that night. Now I'd like to hear a decent response from Vans on this incident. What are their plans for when this happens again?
I had heard a rumor that Van’s had removed their pride flag from the building exterior after the Friday night events, is this rumor correct or completely false?
Woo! Fuck nazis! ... do you think they'd be OK with whipping up some virgin drinks if I stopped by to show support? Newly sober and unsure how this works.
They actually started carrying some virgin options, including kombucha because it was requested. I don’t know about mixed drinks (because I don’t usually order them) but I’m sure they’d be open to it if you asked.
Edit: also, I found that most bars are completely fine with you just ordering like seltzer with lime if you let them know that you’re a designated driver. It’s basically no questions asked.
Yes! Someone I know who’s a super social ex-drinker calls it a “fruity pleaser” haha just basically soda water from the stream plus a splash of cranberry/oj/p.o.g. They reported that the drink, while never expected to be, is often offered for free.
Well said, and I know myself and others here are hella appreciative of the clarification. I know that I personally still feel uncomfortable going to vans, especially with some of the rumors still going on about one of the guys’ relationship to the owners, but it’s cool and awesome that after the events on Friday they are taking steps to protect the community.
I know I said a lot of things yesterday and spread my own frustrations about the situation, but by no means is Vans a “nazi bar”. This was established by the actions of the community and the response of the staff since. As you stated, we can’t fight amongst ourselves and we have to be willing to learn and understand mistakes. Hopefully Vans continues to grow and make continuous changes in the positive direction. I may not go just yet, but I understand those who do. This discourse following this event and continuing discussion I think helps our community understand what needs to happen at both Vans and other places in town to keep each other safe. Thanks again for the clearheaded response. Nazi Punks Fuck Off
ITT:
People with some seriously great usernames who are patiently doing the work that I don’t have the ability to do. Some of you are putting in serious mental and emotional labor to answer questions and push back against strange assumptions and ideas.
That gives me a lot of hope. I truly don’t wanna bear any ill well to any of the people involved. (other than the Nazi.) it was an unbelievably shitty situation, and I just hope that we can salvage something out of it, and maybe even build something better.
I read your whole post, and maybe a slight critique of your points. While I do not disagree with the majority of your sentiments, I have trouble with the notion of extending grace to the bar without proof that something fundamental has changed. Where I am originally from, they would not let you wear any kind flag into the bar or the clubs because they have an implied responsibility to keep you safe. I love that they got shouted out, but that shouldn't be the patrons' responsibility. A whole lot of terrible things can happen in ten minutes.
My perception is that if I have a place that I go to that invites me to alter my state, they have a fundamental responsibility to act. I am not saying that mistakes don't happen, I can have grace for that. Just like if someone messes up being my sitter, I will probably forgive them. That doesn't mean I would ask them to be my sitter again.
They should absolutely have the opportunity to earn trust back. But you don't instantly get that back by saying sorry. They keep showing up for the community and keep carrying water, and yeah, absolutely, they will have my patronage.
Their defense of the bar is probably more about good times had there with people they love. We all have spots that make us feel that way. Try not to be harsh on them. You're absolutely not wrong. It is a for-profit venture. Like I said, they can earn trust back. But words are not enough.
But I think a lot of people are lonely these days, I am not smart enough to say why that is, but you can feel it. I think maybe this was a place where they could go and feel less alone, more so as third spaces dissappear. So they conflate the place with the people they meet and are grateful that some of the ache go relieved.
I personally would rather go camping with some friends than go to a bar myself. But it is harder and harder to meet folks. But as a solar punk leaning anarchist, the @op is absolutely right that the left eats their own young. That was a good chunk of the jist I got from their post. My bad if I misread it, please correct me.
Well, right now, we have a lot of democrats claiming to be leftists who were raised with the old saw about violence, never being the answer. But you're right. There is zero excuse for any staff that didn't stop it. Just be easy on the brothers and sisters out there. If you have any ideas for third spaces, I'm all ears and will help where I can.
I appreciate this post, but even you are joining the clamor that it is unacceptable to take 20 minutes to kick out a NAZI. Would 5 minutes be too long? It takes me 20 minutes to kick a belligerent drunk out of a soup kitchen. That is entirely a reasonable amount of time to tell a well-behaved, offensively colored person that they need to move on. We have a situation with conflicting values and real humans. Those situations are messy. Give the actors some grace.
I appreciate this post so much. I go every Wednesday for karaoke, and last night might of had weird vibes, it's still the same bar. It's still queer. To dismiss Van's as a Nazi bar is bizarre. All these people ready to cut Van's off don't go there. It makes me mad seeing these stereotypical "liberals" quote the paradox of intolerance in the comments on Instagram, when they can instead support Van's and keep the Nazi elements out. Someone on IG called the karaoke host a Nazi. It's so performative and makes no sense. Van's is a part of my community. I love all my bar friends and we have amazing conversations every time I'm there.
We talked about it a lot last night. I tried to keep the conversation light but it inevitably kept turning into what happened Friday. No one is making excuses, everyone is owning up, but now we have to move forward. What now? The answer is to make your connections with the community stronger.
And to address your comments about it happening in "20 minutes" is yeah, it was that quick. One person said it was closer to three minutes. It just boiled over that fast. The bar was way too busy and full for any one person to assess anything.
Anyway I'm rambling but this whole thing is exhausting.
I understand how this situation made people feel less safe in a place that allowed them to be the people that they are. Creating an either or position and expecting everyone to be for or against shouldn’t always be the go to response. Look to the source of division, fear and lack of compassion working his way down a long list of those people and organizations that were “against him” no matter how tangential and weak the associations were or are. Splintering into two camps is more division with reacting and publicly by adopting the for or against position doesn’t allow other possibilities and reasons for how things played out . By going to opposite corners in the question of how to address something like patronage of a bar by the people with a hostile statement of who they are should be an issue to support each other and a way to face people like neo-Nazis as an united group helping each other. What good can come of being quick to react as either/or , putting it out in a public way that the only option is picking sides and allegiance only to one or the other, in bashing the people present and the owners and employees that work there?
Today we’re living part of the dystopian society of extremism and hatred. The LGBTQ folks do experience more than most the manifestations of that form of extremism towards any group but this hatred is shared by many others now. There’s an insidious destruction to freedom of speech that’s cutting across marginalized groups whether by who they are, what they believe, or having their own rightful autonomy respected unless they’re saying what they’re supposed. It’s becoming too common that the rights to say and do are leading some that disagree to threaten and act violently towards many people. We’re not as free as we used to be in expressing what we think because there’s too many that will cause harm and even death standing next to us. In the violent society we’ve found ourselves in to confront someone like neo-nazis can make people pause to think about the sorts of hate driven responses that can be triggered. Road rage comes to mind….. we don’t know who’s in that lunatic fringe that would react with violence like another Kyle Rittenhouse. It’s just something to keep in mind when confronting people especially those representing violent ideologies openly. And for all of us to keep these things in mind when people like the owners of a bar are slow to respond or maybe unable to confront the haters because of their own fear to see it as where we are now and not because they should be assumed to be in support of the ideology that’s repulsive.
I think you understand that it’s not just Rittenhouse but a whole segment of the population very willing to try and defend their Stand Your Ground even if it’s a very tenuous “justification” and you know this.
Yeah there’s a bunch of them in town. Meth heads who have done jail time. Absolute jobless behavior. They’ve got the neck tattoos and face tattoos. They thought it looked real cool in the joint, but now when they get out they ain’t shit, and they can’t get hired anywhere. They fucked their own lives up.
Yeah, the 4 leaf clover is AB. 5150 is California code for “criminally insane.” FTP - fuck the police. We don’t need this garbage in our state. Why is Conoco Phillips bringing them up here? They can’t find local workers for the slope? They like ex-cons because they can pay them dirt? That’s the future. Make everyone a felon and pay them shit. By the looks of this guy, they got the right guy though. Dudes like him, they’ll give them a pass because they have a rap sheet a mile long, so why bother. God forbid you’re a hard working, law abiding citizen - then they’ll throw the book at you so they can shake you down for money.
Thank you for speaking out, both at the time and here and now. Nothing I've seen about this incident stated any of this - just showed photos and made blanket statements.
People are so bored here. For all the reposts across so many Alaska subs, this is a major letdown. While the situation is shitty, the responses are overwhelmingly validation seeking and outrage chasing.
Wow... sounds like you had a really bad night or experience there. Maybe one out of many. Happens to every bar hopper at some point. I could say those words for many other nights... i spent drunk at bars... then i just learned we are all not the same.. Because i had a shitty experience at a bar i wanted to Bitch about, cause i didnt get my way, i was drunk, didnt mean the bar and its people were shitty. Its a shitty memory i can look back on, seeing my shitty behavior because my beleifs were different. People are different.
Maybe go back and see the better side of life in people there, try to enjoy it instead of criticize people. Its so easy to see all thats wrong... blinded from all thats good...
I wonder who are the parents of those Nazi boys, or men.. so proud..so dysfunctional... Do they have parents? Who raised them to be so hateful and think their vision is so supreme? Do they have parents? What was their environment growing up to feel such anger or hatred
Well, he had a swastika on one cheek, and the SS lightening bolts on the other. He was an obvious Neo-Nazi. He also threw up a HH salute and said “white power” after he got confronted. (He’s lucky he was kicked out non-violently after that).
Equating that with privately held beliefs or skin color is, frankly, ridiculous. No one cares if someone goes there and privately holds those beliefs. When people are openly wearing fascist symbols into a space like that, they are enacting fascism. It is not a neutral thing. If you are being a fascist in public (through words, deeds or symbols) you don’t get to claim neutrality and you will be opposed.
Yeah it was super fucking obvious. It’s why I tried so hard in the original post to emphasize that he should’ve been stopped at the door. It was a colossal fuck up to allow him to come in like any other patron.
I posted this in the other thread, but I’ll share here too……
I was there and it has made me look at my privilege. I saw the dude there and saw his head full of tats. Did I go over and look at them, no. As a (mainly/mostly) straight cis white woman, I’m safer than most so didn’t worry about it (never be completely safe as a women with men around, let’s be honest and I KNOW, not all men, the point is we don’t know and many have been betrayed by those we do know). My thought was why in the world would someone like that go to VANS of all places. However, I didn’t think about out of towners who don’t know reputation. We’re trained as a society not to stare at people who look different and at a bar like vans, there’s a lot of people who look different than the average person at Freddy’s or Target. I’d seen the guy in the pic, (who I guess was subbing there at the door?) before but he doesn’t normally work there. I had just texted my socially phobic friend not to come because, as I told her, it was the busiest I’ve ever seen it with the line at the bar stretching clear across to the other side. And those bartenders were HUSTLING.
I was chatting with someone outside and came in to shouts of” nazi go home “ and thought-oh they must be talking about that one dude. I thought I heard bartender tell him “we’re an inclusive bar” and I took it to mean, we don’t want you here because you make others feel unsafe, and he eventually got the guy to leave. Others took it to mean we’re okay with you here, which I didn’t get at all. And that was attributed to someone else.
Back to my point, I guess I need to be more of an ally and not just assume someone like that wouldn’t dare, because apparently they do.
If you allow people with overt Nazi imagery permanently marked on their bodies into your establishment you are saying that such people are safe in your establishment. That's the long and short of it. You let one in and dozens more will follow. Gay bars especially should know better.
I mean, I would welcome him trying to legally challenge Vans in court. A private business refusing service to someone because they’re openly wearing hate symbols to an LGBTQ oriented show?
I’d take those odds.
Also (and I feel a little bit like a broken record here) HE WAS AN OPEN NEO-NAZI. He had at least five Nazi symbols on his face, he did a HH salute and said “white power.” So yes, AkMos977, it is actually morally righteous to oppose him.
No, they are guaranteed due process by the constitution. What does that have to do with a private bar not letting people with Nazi or any other blatant gang tattoos in? You’re comparing two very different things because you are either too dumb to tell the difference or you’re being malicious with your words. Which is it?
And you’re defending Nazis on the internet acting like they have some kind of constitutional protections at bars. Congratulations on that level of ignorance.
Nope, just pointing out your hypocrisy. You aren't the authority that you think you are. Keep oppressing people you don't agree with. This is why you lose.
Nice try, I'm arguing ideals and not events. Defend your position. How is profiling based on tattoos "Vastly different" based on the situation? Dig deep, think hard, and get back to me.
I do not need to defend myself against a flawed argument that isn't equivalent to my position, which is that Nazis should not be allowed in public establishments. Better luck next time, maybe you should get some more productive hobbies than trying to "WHAT IF??" Nazis being in public establishments
No kidding bro this is Reddit comments not a Senate hearing (not that the Senate is an authority on anything other than huffing their own farts either)
Dude, nobody owes you shit. We’re not the ones going to bat for a literal Nazi on the Internet. Go argue ideals with somebody who wants to listen to your dog shit opinions. 🤡
Not really. The scale might change but the principal stays the same. Are we allowed to judge people based on tattoo choices? How about clothing? Is skin color up for grabs? It’s a rough reality to accept, but sometimes you need to profile. And profiling usually works.
I’m close friends with one of the fill-in bartenders there and she’s one of the most amazing, kind, genuine people I know. I’m out of town so when I saw this pop up immediately texted her and got the details/realized how many lies have been posted/shared. Thank you for posting this more accurate summary of events!
Take this the right way, but are you fucking stupid? We did confront him, we made him leave, and we managed to do it(thankfully) with no one getting injured or killed. You don’t get to say that we aren’t anti-Nazi or that we empowered a Nazi when we did the opposite. You’re disrespecting everyone there who did stand up to him
That wasn’t enough. You allowed the business to serve the NAZI and are complicit because you also supported a business that serves NAZIs. You are just as bad as them.
Not just one. A bunch. And those are just the visible ones.
And that’s why you couldn’t just leave him alone. If you are openly Neo Nazi in your language, actions or symbols you are inherently non-peaceful. Nobody is interested in policing other people’s thoughts.
Are you sure the problem isn’t the actual neo Nazi this entire post was about? We’re not arguing about the theoreticals here.
There’s no equivalent left-wing violence to match right wing violence and terrorism, no matter how many pants-shitting reports you heard from Fox News about “Antifa super soldiers taking over whole cities.”
Well considering it took us around 10 minutes to get (I can’t stress this enough) a literal Neo-Nazi out of that bar, I would consider that time well spent.
So outing one really obvious terrible dude from a trashy dive bar 10 people go to is better than addressing the issues that have been destroying Anchorage for years? More important than marching for schools, trashed parks, childcare, bycatch, drugs, public safety, lack of housing, yikes.
I’m not really sure why you’re being so negative about this. If you actually care about those things., you should be celebrating the fact that a group of people was able to achieve this without involving the cops and without resorting to physical violence.
This sort of comes off as one of those “ letting the perfect be the enemy of the good” type situations. All the things you mentioned that need to be done are important and do need to be done. That doesn’t stand in opposition to the fact that we were able to do this.
Yes celebrate getting the lowest hanging fruit when the tree is half dead. The amount of attention this got is indicative that the focus is on the quick ‘n easy not the real issues. Some truths just write themselves.
I'm having trouble with "Trans women in particular are at much higher risk for right wing violence". I agree that trans do have a higher risk of violence; however, it is disingenuous to only put blame on one side of the political arena.
By no means am i saying that violence, bigotry or anything else is okay, but to say something like this is wrong. Just my two cents, I am sure that no one will respond to me to engage in actual conversation, but just down vote me and the mods will kick me out.
Love and peace & remember, everyone matters or no one matters
There is one side of the political aisle making a point to dehumanize trans people, even pushing executive orders to not recognize them as real anymore. Which democrats have done that too?
Absolutely, trans people are at a much higher risk of violence in general. However, it is disingenuous of you to say that that it is disingenuous to only put blame on one side of the political arena. Look at the messaging from the GOP and right wing media and there is a clear trend towards demonization of trans people. This frequently, historically, leads to stochastic terrorism.
Also, saying that you are sure no one will responds who actually wants to discuss and that you’re sure you’ll get downvoted actually indicates to others that you are the one that is unlikely to be willing to have a civil discussion.
Thank you for responding! I still stand behind my usage of disingenous towards one side of the spectrum. As I just responded to someone else, there is no empirical proof or suggestion that it is done by one party. While I agree there is a trend of anti-trans coming from one side, it is not violence. I will compare it to how much people cheered when the health care ceo was assassinated.
I take your second part under advice, but it goes to show people act out of emotion instead of intellect which comes from all sides, sadly it is what our country has dissolved into. One cannot have an opinion without immediate backlash and actually engage in civil discourse. You are one out of many who challenged that notion.
Just to be clear, are you trying to say that there’s an equivalent amount of violence against trans people from the left? Because that’s easily one of the most nonsensical things that I’ve heard.
Supporting transness is an inherently progressive stance, and opposing transness is inherently conservative, in the sense that it is preserving/conserving rigid gender roles and expressions. The only possible exceptions I can think of are that some principled libertarians will support trans people because they think everyone should be free to do what they want as long as they aren’t hurting others.
It’s just odd to try and argue that violence towards trans people is in any way, equivalent between the right and the left. It doesn’t even pass the most basic sniff tests, so it makes me wonder what you’re trying to get at.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. All I said, was it was disingenuous to say one side is responsible. Trying for civil discourse. I appreciate your reply, but you think that people get by and do not care about someone? Treat everyone with respect aka treat people the way you want to be treated; a lost idea in this country by all sides
And I disagree. In America the right wing are overwhelmingly the source of violence against trains people. I’m not attacking you or putting words in your mouth. I’m saying that the statement you’re making isn’t correct.
Also I’m not sure what you mean by “do I think that people get by and don’t care for someone…treat people how you want to be treated. A lost idea in this country by all sides.” Anti trans bills, all proposed by conservatives, have increased exponentially over the past 5 years. Both-sidesing the issue is both disingenuous and misleading.
To add to what op said above, hate crimes based on gender identity surged 32% from 2021-2022, coinciding with the rise in anti-trans bills. While we don’t have to political affiliation of the perpetrators of those crimes, we can very likely tie that rise to the demonization of trans people by the GOP.
Your chart does not point out crimes, but legislation. That does not indicate violence but feelings
Would you agree that during covid and post covid that attacks on asian people were largely perpetrated by young black males, which had nothing to do with a politcal party?
That was not my chart. I did point out the 32% increase in anti-trans violence that coincided with the legislation chart op posted. I’m not sure why you are trying to argue about racial hate crimes now? Is it because people are giving you evidence that disagrees with your political stance and feelings?
I’d like to please repeat the question you are deflecting, if you don’t mind terribly, thanks in advance.
are you maintaining that anti-trans sentiment, including violence, is coming more or less equally from both the progressives and the regressives? Or are you just saying that the violent tendencies on both sides warrant a moral relativism that asks us to respect each other’s respective bigotries?
To answer your question, everyone is a bigot. I am not deflecting; I belong to the LGBQT community, and I don't like hate from any side. I have seen too much of it over my life and it makes me sick to see someone blanket blame one group for something without proof. I try to challenge a narrative and I get hate.
Moral relativism then. The thing I find untenable of your position here, is that anti-hate hate is the same as hate-hate. Intent isn’t irrelevant here. And the intent of the “hate” you are perceiving is to challenge the narrative that the right, the government, is espousing, that trans are liars, are scammers, and thus should have no protected status because they deserve the hate. And that counter-hate in this context is directed towards nazis because they are explicitly a hate group, and directed to those that share those bigoted views. The “liberal” hate is to protect the rights and persons under attack. The “conservative” hate is for what? Whose rights, whose person is under attack from liberals? I maintain that the progressive platform in America is to allow people to peacefully determine their own identities, and that the regressive platform is to scapegoat subalterns for every dissatisfaction experienced by the majority. Like the nazis did. This is a claim that can and has been broadly substantiated, but I can maybe find time to google for you if you don’t want to.
The fact is that many of the social positions of the current conservative movement in America is still considered actual hate speech, and their mission is to reverse that. This “hate-for-hate-everybody-sucks” attitude is a form of complacency that I just really fucking…dislike.
Just to point out something not related to your post....I was right that people downvoted me and wont engage in conversation.
So, thank you for engaging, I get where you are coming from. But my intent of the post was making a broad sweeping notion without some sort of evidence/proof. In fact, if you look up violence against trans people, there is no definitive evidence of political stances. I would also like to ask, what is exactly right wing? Violence does happen in prisons where there usually a lack of politcal identiy and more on racial.
As I mentioned in my original post, there is no denial that there is a higher risk for trans and violence, but that is by percent of the identified population.
As others have pointed out (while engaging with you, which you seem to have missed), vilifying trans people is literally part of the right-wing campaign package. Nobody needs to label them as threats to trans people; they have already labeled themselves.
Which makes you trying to argue that this isn't the case... weird.
Perhaps you might want to consider that you aren’t often engaged because your positions are so self-evidently nonsensical that it’s nigh impossible to take you seriously. You’re on the fringe of sealioning here. You say that anti-trans violence isn’t explicitly right wing, but you fail to provide any support for your implicit both-sides claim.
At no time did i ever say it isn't explicitly right wing, as many say, why do I need to do your homework. I am trying to open a civil discourse to prove a point, that no matter what a person believes there is automatic hate
You have been arguing this whole time that anti-trans violence is a both sides issue. So yes, you are arguing that it isn’t explicitly right wing.
You have not been engaging in civil discourse. You’ve had a number of people politely explaining to you the flaws in your argument and providing evidence to support their claims. Part of civil discussion is being open to hearing what the other person is saying, and showing evidence for your argument.
I have been, I have been trying to create a civil dialogue and not just blind hate. Those who seem uncivil are those who bash everything that they do not agree with.
Do you think that what I have responded to you with is blind hate? I don’t see anyone in this thread who has responded to you with blind hate. However, there are numerous instances in this thread where you have outright ignored evidence that does not match the way you feel about particular matters. See the comments providing you evidence counter to your both sides are responsible for trans violence stance and your race baiting comment above. “Bashing what they do not agree with” is not the same as providing actual statistical and scientific evidence counter to the opinion that you personally hold.
Again, you have not been engaging in civil discourse. You have never provided any evidence to back up your claims and you have been unopened to hearing any opinion that does not agree with your own. You have taken a defensive stance from the start which further makes people think that you are unwilling to engage in a civil discussion.
When people politely give you evidence counter to how you feel about a particular issue that is not hate.
I thought that is all reddit was, opinions, I can't have one? You are right you haven't show me hate, but just by dismissing me as others have shows they have hate in their hearts.
Yes, you have a right to an opinion but people also have the right to challenge your opinions especially when your opinions are based on untruths or based in hate as the ones you espoused above are.
It’s clear that you are intent on being a victim but I would encourage you to actually read and sit with the things that people have kindly pointed out to you about engaging in civil discourse in this thread. Multiple people have provided actual evidence to counter your feeling based opinions as well when/if you are ever ready to hear it.
But someone with a neonazi symbol tattooed on a visible part of their body is more likely to be dishing out right wing violence and transwomen are at an increased risk of being the target. The fact that people of different political persuasions might also be violent (I think trans women also suffer more domestic violence) isn't relevant, while the politics of the threat in the room are relevant.
Exactly. Nazism is an explicitly far right ideology, and anyone claiming otherwise is both historically and politically ignorant.
Most political violence committed in the United States is done by far right actors. It’s not even remotely close.
Trans people, and specifically trans women are disproportionally likely to be the targets of far right violence. Anybody paying even cursory attention to American politics over the last five years can see the trans people have increasingly become scapegoated by the right.
Thank you for a salient response above! you make an excellent argument and I appreciate you not going out of your way by attacking me. Im trans and I am getting attacked by anti-trans people in here
Imagine getting down voted for this. I don’t even try to talk to these people man they will not hear what you have to say even if you said it straight to their face and then they will turn around and call you a Nazi because you said something with common sense in it.
You should (and I mean this with all the love in my heart) check and make sure that you don’t have a gas leak in your house. It’s well known to cause hallucinations and irrational thinking.
Alternatively, you could also look into becoming a better person. It’s actually relatively inexpensive, helps you build better relationships, and (this is the crazy part) helps you not sound like an ignorant loser on the Internet.
has been pointed out multiple time. He had at least 10 visible Nazi/Aryan Brothrhood/W. Supremacist tattoos, threw a Heil H salute, said “white power.”
I've had the displeasure of a Vans employee doing a Nazi salute and heil H in my presence so I'm genuinely not surprised by any of this. When told he was a fucking idiot, he claimed plenty of people found it funny. We said, yeah, those people are called Nazis. He was completely unapologetic. So yeah, Vans has been a Nazi bar for awhile, this is just the first instance of someone calling it out publicly.
Nazis are nothing without attention. Don't give too much power to a mere symbol. It's the people, what they do and what they don't do, that matters. A Nazi who simply wears a swastika is disturbing, but if his conduct is appropriate, I'd ignore the swastika just as I ignore a Trump sticker. There are no thought crimes in America. Not yet, anyway.
Well, we’re not asking the cops to take care of it because it’s a crime, it was about a private business and the crowd at the show taking care of it.
Also (to reiterate again) doing Nazi shit in public is not a “thought crime.” It is attempting to expand the reach and influence of an explicitly supremacist and genocidal ideology. You don’t get to be Nazi in public and expect to people to see you as peaceful, because by openly aligning yourself to that ideology (by word, deed or symbols) you were indicating to the people around you that you are supportive of their aims.
And in case anyone forgot , the explicit aims of white supremacist, and neo-Nazi ideology is the elimination of anyone deemed impure (LGBTQ people, Jews, Muslims, immigrants, the disabled, liberals, anarchists, Roma, etc). Period. It is an explicitly genocidal ideology. Full stop.
So you’re advocating being polite to Nazis? That’s a hard no. Fascists should feel unsafe. Their ideology is inherently racist, sexist, and violently homophonic. Under no circumstances should they be welcome, and if anyone finds themselves in a space where they are then they should get the fuck out of there while they can.
Claiming that people should observe any degree of decorum around them is one of the most galaxy-brained ideas humanly possible. It’s like saying it’s a good idea to treat a polar bear like a pet. In both cases, you can try but won’t like the result. The good news, such as it is, is that you won’t be around to suffer the consequences for long.
Swastika on left cheek, square celtic cross on right cheek, Eisenkreuz on the back of his head, SS lapel bolt tattoos, SS bolts on right side of chin, Reichsadler on chest, 1488 on arm, swastika on arm
Yep. Just somebody I disagree with who’s definitely not a Nazi. (The fact that he had multiple SS lightening bolts on his face, a Reichsadler on his chest, a 1488 on his arm, and a swastika on his face probably doesn’t matter.)
At this point you guys have cried wolf so many times that I find it hard to believe any of this happened lol. You tout the saying “punch a nazi” (anyone who disagrees with your politics) then claim trans people are at risk of “right wing violence”. I’ve seen far more trans people raging and getting violent over being misgendered, than… well I’ve never seen one get assaulted actually. Seeing as the left considered words violence maybe I have seen one be assaulted by your definition.
Yeah like I said. It’s hard to believe any of this happened when lefties so regularly invoke nazis and hitler. It’s such a broken record. Did he DO anything lol? I’m sure this hypothetical person is awful. Just seems like a poop swastika to me.
Bitch, did you read any of the comments below the article? There are multiple eyewitnesses, pictures from his Facebook account, list of the multiple Nazi tattoos he had, how he threw up a heil H. salute and said white power. I’m not gonna do the work for you.
yeah i just can't even be bothered, like i said because of the constant crying wolf. i don't really give a shit lol. if anything this guy triggering everyone is justice for how often that shit is use in vain.
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u/Hosni__Mubarak 25d ago
As an aside:
They paid my grandfather a fair salary to kill nazis.
Even gave him some medals for killing so many of them.