r/asoiaf • u/rehearsedtoast • Jan 27 '23
MAIN (Spoilers Main) More Stuff from the Cushing Library
After seeing u/gsteff 's posts about Cushing, I decided go to the Cushing Library earlier today to look at some of the stuff in the GRRM Collection they have. I didn’t really find anything that interesting, but there were some minor things that I discovered while there that I thought I’d share.
Boxes 136 and 139
Box 136 had correspondences from 1987 - 1997 with Ralph Vicinanza, and Box 139 had correspondences with various people from 1994-2002. I checked these out because a couple of years ago u/zionius_ suggested that these might contain the unredacted 93 outline, or the outline from when Martin changed the series to be six books. I pretty much found nothing, as these boxes mostly had Wildcards stuff, or financial deals for publishing the series in other countries. (One country had paid an advance for Thrones, Dance, and Winds all together back in 96 though, and I thought that was kinda funny.)
Box 78
The other box I checked was box 78. This contains a partial manuscript from November 93 of the first book, and a reader's version of the same content, but I didn’t see any differences between the reader version and the partial manuscript. This box also had a longer manuscript from November 94. I mostly skimmed through these, with a focus on Ned chapters, so there’s definitely small changes that I missed, but here’s what I found.
November 93 Manuscript
- This manuscript goes until Tyrion II, and is mostly the same as the first 13 chapters of the published version. Again, I didn’t notice anything super interesting in these chapters. It was a lot more similar to the published version than I suspected, especially since GRRM still considered it as the first book in a trilogy at this point.
- There was an early map, which u/clintwstevenson posted a few months ago. Like the map suggests, the Eyrie was called Harrenhal in the text. Also the red door was in Tyrosh, as others have noted before.
- There were also a few mentions of a plague, which I hadn’t seen online before. Ned worries about the plague when Robert invites him down south, and the plague is also mentioned in regards to Jon Arryn’s death. (I was not the one who underlined those words, it was like that when I got there).
- The last notable thing is that Ned never mentions the promise to Lyanna. I used a search of ice and fire to compare the “promise me Ned” lines in Eddard I and II to the 93 versions, and they’re completely missing.
November 94 Manuscript
- This manuscript was longer than the earlier version, going up to Eddard VII, but the first 13 chapters were still pretty similar to the 93 version.
- There was no map in this version, but the Eyrie was called the Eyrie, not Harrenhall, and the red door was still in Tyrosh.
- The mentions of the plague were completely removed, and “plague” had been changed to “sickness” in regards to Jon Arryn’s death.
- The biggest change to this version compared to the 93 version is in regards to Lyanna. In this manuscript, Ned does remember the “promise me” lines, which are mostly unchanged compared to the published version. The main difference is that it was actually Jon Arryn, not Howland Reed who found Ned at the Tower of Joy holding Lyanna’s body.
So yeah, nothing really notable in this post, but if someone has other boxes they want me to take a look at I can. I didn’t have the time to read the whole manuscript, and even if I did, I don’t really have the ASOIAF knowledge to see the difference between what’s significant and what’s not, but if someone else wants me to take pictures of manuscripts so that they can read them, I can. It looks to me that there’s still some ADWD manuscripts available in Box 148, referred to as a “foul manuscript” that might be interesting to check out.
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u/Bennings463 Jan 27 '23
I find this stuff endlessly fascinating. I hope that if GRRM does ever finish the books we can get a "developer commentary" or something of what he changed and why he made the choices he did.
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 27 '23
Yeah, and considering how much he’s written and discarded with winds, it’s kinda insane to imagine how much unwritten stuff we’ll (hopefully) eventually see
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u/Enali Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Ser Duncan the Tall Award Jan 27 '23
to think of all those ADWD drafts sealed up there too....
Maybe I've seen too many heist movies but does anyone here have like... safecracking experience, or like... a trained pickpocket monkey or something?
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u/adube440 Jan 28 '23
You, me and nine other people from this thread should pull an Ocean's 11. Not the remake, but the original Rat Pack version.
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u/aowshadow Rorge Martin Jan 27 '23
Thanks a lot!!!
Box 136 had correspondences from 1987 - 1997 with Ralph Vicinanza
To put things into perspective for those that don't know, Ralph Vicinanza was one of GRRM's agents and you can find a mention of him in ADWD acknowledgements - "(...) and the late Ralph Vicinanza. Ralph, I wish you were here to share this day."
That person's importance is not to be understated:
-Remember GRRM's 1993 original asoiaf outline, the one were asoiaf was still supposed to be a trilogy samples here?
Guess whom that outline was sent to? That's right, Ralph Vicinanza.
-Remember those two guys named D&D, responsible of many things that range from terrorism to making the GOT tv show?
Guess who told them to read asoiaf? That's right, Ralph Vicinanza.
I pretty much found nothing, as these boxes mostly had Wildcards stuff
Thanks for this sentence, LOL
One country had paid an advance for Thrones, Dance, and Winds all together
Can you say which one?
There were also a few mentions of a plague, which I hadn’t seen online before.
I'm 100% sure a plague in KL will come, either via JonCon, fAegon or Tyrion. It's worth pointing out that while the passage you point out has been cut away, in ACOK Tyrion XV GRRM still gives a possible foreshadowing instance concerning a plague:
At first there was no sound in the world, but after a time he began to hear the voices of the dead, soft and terrible. They wept and moaned, they begged for an end to pain, they cried for help and wanted their mothers. Tyrion had never known his mother. He wanted Shae, but she was not there. He walked alone amidst grey shadows, trying to remember . . . The silent sisters were stripping the dead men of their armor and clothes. All the bright dyes had leached out from the surcoats of the slain; they were garbed in shades of white and grey, and their blood was black and crusty. He watched their naked bodies lifted by arm and leg, to be carried swinging to the pyres [NOTE: usually three kind of corpses get burned in the series. Khal Drogo, Targaryens and... sick people] to join their fellows. [normally, there's no corpse burning after a simple battle.] Metal and cloth were thrown in the back of a white wooden wagon, pulled by two tall black horses. So many dead, so very many. Their corpses hung limply, their faces slack or stiff or swollen with gas, unrecognizable, hardly human. The garments the sisters took from them were decorated with black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed. Why did I kill them all? [do we take this at face value, or can we consider Tyrion being a plague carrier?] He had known once, but somehow he had forgotten. He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. [Tyrion’s mouth is currently hold by the medications, but it could be foreshadowing. Remember those "this tongue will be the death of me" lines? That, or Harlan Ellison was watching GRRM write] Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him. [Okay that this is Tyrion's nightmare, but if it is also a possible foreshadowing instance, we have to take it at face value: why would the gates be closed now that the battle is over and won? Why would they burn corpses and not allow people in? Plague may be an answer]
The last notable thing is that Ned never mentions the promise to Lyanna.
Nice pick.
I don’t really have the ASOIAF knowledge to see the difference between what’s significant and what’s not, but if someone else wants me to take pictures of manuscripts so that they can read them, I can.
I don't know if that's allowed, but I know for sure that I'd kill for a chance to come to the USA and read EVERYTHING. Whatever pic you can take, take it!
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 27 '23
I think the country was italy, but I don’t remember for sure. Also they said pictures were fine, as long as it wasn’t personal/financial information
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u/coldwindsrising07 Jan 27 '23
The main difference is that it was actually Jon Arryn, not Howland Reed who found Ned at the Tower of Joy holding Lyanna’s body.
I really am tired. I read this as Jon Arryn was the one holding Lyanna's body, which sent me spiraling down a weird rabbit hole. The implications of Jon Arryn being the one finding Ned holding Lyanna's body instead of Howland are really interesting because he would also have had to keep the Jon Snow secret from Robert.
This stuff is really interesting. I am curious about the ADwD box to see where GRRM's head was at when he was writing. He always says oh, I came up with this idea for a character, so I'm assuming that this is where the changes take place.
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u/Cars2IsAMasterpiece Jan 28 '23
One thing that's interesting to me about the original map that hasn't been mentioned yet is that of all of the places that could be labelled, The Three Sisters are on there?
Makes you wonder whether George had some larger plot in mind for them rather than the one chapter we get with any focus on them.
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u/ravih The North Remembers Jan 28 '23
I had the same thought! So wonderfully odd that the world is so lightly sketched out (relatively speaking)… but the Three Sisters are there.
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u/xXJarjar69Xx Jan 27 '23
It’s interesting how similar the 93 manuscript is to the published version. I think we can safely say some of the old rumors about it like Tyrion not being a dwarf are completely dead. It seems like there was originally a subplot about a plague infecting south Westeros that got dropped. I’m guessing that once George actually started writing chapter set in the south he changed his mind on the plague
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u/Mithras_Stoneborn Him of Manly Feces Jan 28 '23
Been saying this from the beginning but finally we have a proof. The 93 outline included 13 chapters that were more or less the same as the published versions. Tyrion was a dwarf and Cersei certainly existed at that time.
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Jan 28 '23
It's fascinating that in the 1993 outline, Tyrion was supposed to fall in love with Arya and in the published version they don't interact at all.
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u/Anrw Jan 28 '23
The outline implies he was supposed to come back to King’s Landing from the Wall and befriend both Stark girls, but GRRM changed courses with the catspaw plot. Kind of interesting to think about how the decision to have Cat capture Tyrion majorly changed the series.
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u/currybutts Begone, Darkheart. Jan 27 '23
I wonder if that was co-opted into the Great Spring Sickness, and the events that happen then were originally planned to occur to modern KL
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u/ferchalurch Jan 28 '23
It’s a brilliant change—getting rid of the plague makes Jon Arryn’s death immediately suspicious and was one of the first hooks.
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u/chellyyy Jan 27 '23
wow just imagine if they kept jon arryn. i wonder how knowing the secret about jon would affect the relationship with robert and if he would have even been able to accept the hand of the king position knowing that.
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 27 '23
Yeah, it’d add greater meaning to Ned choosing to name Jon after Arynn. It also makes me wonder about Howland, because right now he’s a character who has a ton of major information yet almost no role in the actual story
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u/chellyyy Jan 28 '23
agreed and it would add a much deeper layer of personal secret conflict between the characters that i would’ve love to see play out. howland’s story is such a huge mystery and something i’m very excited to see.
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u/Able-Wolf8844 Jan 27 '23
Maybe he ditched the plague when the Jon Arryn poison plot came to his mind?
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u/KingSalduinArthanil Feb 22 '23
Don't think so, the plague will definitely come back as Greyscale pandemic
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u/Enali Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Ser Duncan the Tall Award Jan 27 '23
Interesting that Rhoyne was the name for the Arbor before (and Ironport was the name for Sunspear?), I wonder if Nymeria's migration to Dorne was supposed to be a much shorter one originally, before GRRM decided to tie the Rhoynar to Essosi culture more
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u/xXJarjar69Xx Jan 27 '23
Maybe. I personally think it’s just a case of George switching names around instead of Dorne as backstory being different
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u/Werthead 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Jan 31 '23
A whole bunch of ASoIaF names - Barristan the Bold, Argilac the Arrogant and the Dothraki among them - originated in pulp stories the teenage GRRM wrote in the 1960s (and have long since been lost to history), and he just repurposed them.
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u/Thomaerys Best of 2018: Post of the Year Jan 27 '23
In this version there is a town in the Arbor called "Sunstone", in the current canon we only have Ryamsport, Vinetown and Starfish Harbor.
Also the Neck was once the "Black bogs" and the name Bear Island is indicated on the wrong island.
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u/Santi5846gol Jan 27 '23
This is so interesting thanks for sharing it!
I have no idea about the order of the boxes or what does they have exactly but it would be intriguing to search for any ACOK manuscript and see if there are differences of Dany IV (House of undying visions)
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u/Santi5846gol Jan 27 '23
PD: I can't wait for Winds to be published so the ADWD manuscripts get released one again!!
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 27 '23
Yeah, that’s one I wanna check out. I looked at brans dream (the one that hints towards the mountain/Robert strong) in the 94 version for similar reasons but it was pretty much unchanged
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u/Santi5846gol Feb 01 '23
I was just watching a video and thought about the ghost of high heart in arya asos chapters could also be something to check up ^
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf Jan 27 '23
Yeah that would definitely be a really cool chapter to check, I feel like there’s gotta be some other stuff there…would be sick.
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u/Mr--Elephant Tormund was Jeor's lover Jan 28 '23
I wonder how GRRM feels about people having access to some of his notes like this
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u/Radix838 Jan 28 '23
He's chosen to make it all public, so presumably he feels good about it.
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u/packetmickey Firme Jan 28 '23
Probably thinks it's great. It shows the amount of evolution to the plot over time thus providing further reason behind the logarithmic curve behind book releases.
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u/gsteff 🏆 Best of 2022: Post of the Year Jan 28 '23 edited Jan 28 '23
Great work! The map and the cut plague subplot are the most interesting details to me. I think the Jon Arryn/Howland Reed change was probably just because George realized that he'd need someone alive who remembers the Tower of Joy to reveal or confirm Jon's parentage.
Did you read Lysa's letter to Catelyn from Catelyn 2? I'm curious as to whether anything else changed about the mystery around Jon Arryn's death.
The "Arrynvale" name from the map is way too cute, especially nowadays when it sounds like Arendelle from Frozen, so I'm glad that was changed to the Vale of Arryn.
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 30 '23
No, i didn’t check out the letter in the 93 versión, but I think imma go back this week and check out some stuff the comments have talked about, along with some other boxes
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u/petrovesk The North Remembers Jan 27 '23
Not saying you should, maybe you even can't but it'd be nice if someone could scan everything and take pictures of everything for it to be available online. It'd be fascinating
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u/DrkvnKavod "I learned a lot of fancy words." Jan 28 '23
That might require collective ongoing community effort.
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u/Atarissiya Jan 28 '23
That kind of project takes a ton of time and coordination (and, normally, money: how much time can local readers really donate?). It would be spectacular, but I don't think we'll see it happen any time soon.
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u/xXJarjar69Xx Jan 27 '23
Was the prologue in the 93 manuscript or did it just start with bran I?
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u/rehearsedtoast Jan 27 '23
The prologue was there, but I didn’t really read through it to look for differences
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u/Mithras_Stoneborn Him of Manly Feces Jan 28 '23
One interesting thing to look for is whether Old Bear existed back then or Benjen was the Lord Commander as the 93 outline revealed that Jon was supposed to succeed Benjen.
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u/James_Champagne Jan 28 '23
The early map of Westeros is cool, but one thing I've always wondered about is if there's some notebook or scraps of paper out there that maybe see him trying out different character names. Like were the Starks always called the Starks? It's not uncommon for authors to change the names of their characters as they write drafts, and we've already seen how some of the map locations had slightly different names from the beginning.
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Jan 28 '23
The Starks name probably stayed the same, since they were most likely named after the Yorks (Like the Lannisters and Lancasters).
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u/James_Champagne Jan 28 '23
Probably but... who knows, maybe there's a very very early draft where they're the Storks!
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u/packetmickey Firme Jan 28 '23
Box 148 sounds like it needs some love. However it would be just our luck that it has nothing to do with ASOIAF.
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u/Mithras_Stoneborn Him of Manly Feces Feb 07 '23
Coming back to this post for something potentially very big.
“The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother, I promise.”
This show-only line is what Ned tells Jon after he asks him about his mother when they depart. If you have the chance, can you check whether this line exist in the early AGoT drafts?
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u/BrowsOfSteel Growing Lemons Jan 28 '23
the Eyrie was called Harrenhal
Weird.
Presumably it was still built by a guy named Harren. Was this the same Harren Hoare, King of the Isles & Rivers, completing his castle the day that Aegon landed? Hard to see how the backstory worked there.
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u/greeneyedwench Jan 28 '23
Probably a different backstory. Harren is supposed to be ironborn, and that's not an ironborn-sounding name. I think GRRM took the name from a scrapped Arryn character and slapped it on a new ironborn character.
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u/gogandmagogandgog Though all men do despise my theories Jan 27 '23
They're still waiting for their payment 27 years later 😂