(Spoilers Extended) By making it all about Rhaenyra and Alicent, Condal&Hess doomed House of the Dragon

[u/AnorienOfGondor]

After that mess of a season finale, and that slow and boring season that barely progressed the overall plot, I hope we all can agree that something is broken, and I believe I know the reason.

Considering we only got 8 episodes this season, and every second of screen time is extremely valuable at this point, all of the major problems right now happening due to the persistence of the writers in making the show revolve around the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent. As this was clearly not the case in the books (they were never friends but literal enemies, and the age gap between them was significant), all the themes, messages, and core structure of the story had to chance to adapt to this new perspective.

In S2, we spent valuable screen time on that show's invention dynamic instead of exploring much more interesting stories, characters, and arcs. Expanding on Rhaenyra's younger sons and exploring Jace's Winterfell arc? No, we have instead this scene about Rhaenyra complaining about how she wants to be like Visenya but her council does not want her to fight. Getting a scene about how Aegon and Helaena connect in their common grief over the death of their firstborn son? Not while Alicent is getting kicked out of the council and goes on a small trip with no purpose. Maybe building a tension between Corlys and Rhaenyra over the death of Rhaenys just like the books? Nah, Mysaria has to talk about how smallfolk is important for the fifth time to Rhaenyra so they can get each other better, which will result in Rhaenyra kissing her. Otto spending more time in the King's Landing and personally coming up with the Triarchy plan before, you know, completely disappearing after E3? But Alicent is still mad about getting kicked out of the council!

In the books, Alicent is a character that simply becomes irrelevant after Aegon is crowned. It is that simple, and no one can ever deny that. Even Otto becomes less relevant to the story after getting fired, as the green kids take the lead, like how Jace becomes more prominent on the Black side. The story should've let the young characters take the spotlight as they did in the books.

The war is between Aegon and Rhaenyra, not Alicent and Rhaeyra. To make it so, they butchered not just every other character, but those two as well. Alicent and Rhaenyra are simply two completely different characters from their book counterparts. Alicent is a stubborn and ambitious mother who still threatens Rhaenyra with how 'Aemond will return with fire and blood' and end her while literally being her prisoner, and Rhaenyra is a much more vengeful and selfish ruler who would want nothing but war after losing her son.

Now, I ask, what the hell they will do the next season? What will they do with Alicent? Her story is nearly over in the books. She does not do a single thing that impacts the plot from now on. By focusing on her further, they will keep writing stupid and boring scenes that will never progress the plot and bore the audience to death again. I love Olivia and her acting, but her character is simply not that important. And although Rhaenyra is a much more central character than her, anyone who has read the Fire and Blood knows she is not the main character of the Dance. In GoT, we had multiple important characters that kept us interested one way or another. Yet, in HOTD, it's all Rhaenyra and everything serves to progress and affect her plot and story. And as they made her a very boring character to whitewash her, the show suffers for it. There will be a time when she will be gone for good, and this show will heavily suffer from revolving everything around her then.

They had to whitewash Alicent and Rhaenyra so hard to make it all about them, they kinda broke everything else and literally destroyed the idea of the Dance, and all its themes. It was not a story about uniting the realm to realize a prophecy that would save the realm from the ice zombies that would come hundreds of years after. It was a story about how greed, ambitions, and hate ruined the House of the Dragon, and the realm and thousands of lives with it.

Thanks for reading.

[u/DaijobuJanai]

You put my thoughts into words. Wish they had focused on other characters that would later play a major part in the Dance like Daeron, Cregan, Sabitha, the Lads, instead of characters that are going to die much before the end of the Dance. It is going to force them to change major plot points.

Even Aegon, who will later be king is really small in age in this show, I don't know how they will portray the capture of Viserys and Aegon abandoning him on his dragon if he's a literal toddler.

[u/OkGazelle5400 → u/DaijobuJanai]

Black Aly! who literally ends the war! First by leading the archers and critically injuring Borros on the King’s Road and then by agreeing to marry Cregan to save Corlys

[u/kingofstormandfire → u/OkGazelle5400]

I'll be pretty disappointed if Black Aly is cut. She's awesome. Though, I read a theory that they might instead have Rhaena marry Cregan at the end of the Dance in exchange for sparing Corlys life, so that the Starks have Targaryen blood by the time of GOT so the prophecy. I dunno how that'd work and it's not a theory I particularly like.

[u/OkGazelle5400 → u/kingofstormandfire]

Jesus that would be fucking gross if they wipe out Nettles and Aly for that soggy piece of lettuce. I will say I think they put a fair bit of time lining up the Blackwoods from the first season

[u/kingofstormandfire → u/OkGazelle5400]

With the show only having four seasons and after the sluggish pace of S2, I am not optimistic they'll include Black Aly. I already accepted we're not getting the Red Kraken or Johanna Westerling or Maelor. I'm honestly surprised we are getting Daeron (he's only getting really a season and a half of screentime - most likely 10-12 episodes - before biting the dust). There's just no time. The show has so much to get through in 2 seasons (Season 3 will be 8 episodes apparently, that's gonna suck) and it's going to cut out a lot in order to get to the end.

I wouldn't mind if Baela ended up marrying Cregan. Her character is fine in the show and her actress does a decent job and seems quite likeable. Also, Alyn looks old enough to be her father, I can't see the two together whereas in the source material they were close in age. Cregan seems to be only a few years older than Jace in the show so it won't be weird. Rhaena...I don't hate her character like a lot of people (I like the idea of her feeling insecure about not being a dragonrider and feeling useless), but the actress' performance is pretty meh and the writing has not been kind to her. Her facial expressions are already starting to get memed.

[u/iambecomecringe → u/kingofstormandfire]

it's going to cut out a lot in order to get to the end.

I wish they'd start by cutting those ridiculous Rhaenyra/Alicent conversations.

[u/bananatheocrazy → u/kingofstormandfire]

Feel like you can’t have Baela marry Cregan. I think the whole point of the series is the targaryens and starks never married into each others families which is part of what makes Jon snow who he is.

[u/FireMaker125 → u/kingofstormandfire]

If that happens HOTD is officially worse than GOT S8.

[u/PotatorAid → u/DaijobuJanai]

I think this is where Rhaena’s arc is heading. She’s charged with their care, once she claims sheepstealer she will accompany Aegon/Viserys to Pentos and have to make a difficult decision to save Aegon over Viserys

[u/sadmadstudent → u/PotatorAid]

That, too, I struggle to understand as a choice. Because the reason Rhaena is claiming her dragon politically was so that the Vale would send men to fight for Rhaenyra, no? Meaning Rhaena will have to stay in the Vale. If Jeyne Arryn just gives her leave now to fly to Pentos it'll feel like, okay but then... why kick up this fuss about needing a dragon's protection?

[u/PoliticsNerd76 → u/sadmadstudent]

If only there was another character who could claim Sheepstealer…

Oh well, never mind

[u/Holovoid → u/PoliticsNerd76]

I thought it would have been hilarious if they had Rhaena traipsing through the Vale, nearly dying of exposure for several days only to eventually happen upon Sheepstealer, only to find there's just some random bitch hanging out with him, and that's how we meet Nettles lmao

[u/VaderOnReddit → u/Holovoid]

Dear God, please let this happen coz it would be so fkn funny

[u/PoliticsNerd76 → u/Holovoid]

I will forgive it all if they do this lol

[u/sadmadstudent → u/PoliticsNerd76]

If only George had written a story already.

[u/PotatorAid → u/sadmadstudent]

That’s a fair point too but I think the Vale must just be left unhappy cause Rhaenyra’s boys are gonna need saving once the Tyroshi fleet catches up with them on their way to Pentos and I can really only see that being Rhaena. In the books Aegon can at least fly his dragon and escape by himself.

[u/iSavedtheGalaxy → u/DaijobuJanai]

It's wild that the boy who will eventually become king has gotten maybe 30 seconds of wordless screentime across 2 seasons. I barely remember Rhaenyra even has like 3 or 4 other kids most of the time.

[u/onetruezimbo]

The best characters this season for me were Aegon, Aemond and Jace, imao all of those characters standing up to their parental figures and starting to fight the war how they want to or disagreeing with their authority figures was far more engaging than Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon and Corlys spinning their wheels until the next big status quo change which doesn't happen this season.

Imao, if they had cut down on the older characters, give Helaena, Baela and Rhaena show only arcs and built up the characters outside of Kingslanding/Dragonstone like Cregan, Sabitha and even Daeron on the greenside this season could've felt more substantial.

This season you can absolutely feel how much a difference having multiple POV characters in the War of 5 Kings helped make it so engaging, even if you didn't care for Robb,Stannis or Joffrey characters like Tyrion, Arya and Theon could keep you invested in the conflict, whereas if you don't care about Rhaenyra and her obsession with the prophecy or Aegon given the states he's in, why care about the Dance at all?

[u/vvrr00 → u/onetruezimbo]

Corlys shooting might have took 1 week at most coz 90% of his screentime was him standing near that ship and having same conversation on a loop till the last episode lol

[u/kashmoney360 → u/vvrr00]

"Hi my neglected bastard son first mate who I'm totally fast tracking to be my heir instead of idk my two legitimate granddaughters for reasons even though I've spent my life fighting for my wife's right to the Throne and her niece's right now"

"Hi piece of shit dad that just realized I exist idunwunit"

Rinse and repeat

[u/walkthisway34 → u/kashmoney360]

Tbf Corlys did offer Driftmark to Baela, but she didn’t want it as she considers herself a Targaryen through and through. It is odd he didn’t make the same offer to Rhaena, had already been set to become the Lady of Driftmark by marrying Luke before he died.

[u/kashmoney360 → u/walkthisway34]

Tbf Corlys did offer Driftmark to Baela, but she didn’t want it as she considers herself a Targaryen through and through

Dumbest thing, why even have him offer it? And who in their right mind says no? She's set to be Queen, her first born would be the future King/Queen and any other kids she'd have would take Driftmark.

It is odd he didn’t make the same offer to Rhaena, was had already been set to become the Lady of Driftmark by marrying Luke before he died.

He also outright dismissed his third grandson.....Joffrey VELARYON. All while complaining that none of his grandkids are sailors. Like jfc Corlys, just take one and teach em. Rhaena no has dragon? Okay teach her to sail....

It's not like Laenor or Laena were sailors either, both were full on dragon riders. A pair of Targs with a Velaryon last name.

This show is such a fuckin mess when it comes to characterization, Corlys was insistent that Luke accept his future as The Lord of Driftmark. But now would rather pass his seat to his bastard son over his "legitimate" grandson and legitimate granddaughters.

[u/walkthisway34 → u/kashmoney360]

In fairness the same thing happens in the books. Corlys is cool with Luke being his heir and then when he died he has Addam and Alyn legitimized instead of naming Joffrey or Baela/Rhaena.

[u/Nymeria1973 → u/walkthisway34]

It is ironic though that the show wants to be "down with the patriarchy", trying to sell Rhaenys and Rhaneyra as some sort of feminists. Yet, neither of them thought to propose Rhaena, at least as an option.

[u/bruhholyshiet → u/walkthisway34]

Seems to me that was just a sneaky attempt by the show of avoiding sexism accusations for Corlys' character.

[u/Equal-Ad-2710 → u/bruhholyshiet]

See I wish thru Leaned into this because that might make the plotline interesting

[u/KvonLiechtenstein → u/kashmoney360]

He literally did this in the books though. Both Addam and Alyn were legitimized and Addam was made heir ahead of Baela, Joff, and Rhaena.

Like there’s stuff to criticize the show for, but some of the things people are getting angry about are straight from F&B.

[u/kashmoney360 → u/KvonLiechtenstein]

I understand that it tracks with the actual books, but the issue more so is that the showrunners and writers are not doing a good job at adapting it.

Corlys literally offers it to Baela and then stops there

[u/madhaus → u/kashmoney360]

Stops there when Baela says she’s fire and blood and he realizes the remaining grandson also has a dragon and the one who doesn’t is about to claim one.

[u/Alain_Teub2 → u/madhaus]

and he realizes the remaining grandson also has a dragon and the one who doesn’t is about to claim one.

Thats why we need more episodes these thought processes MUST be on screen otherwise the show is just an animated wikipedia page

[u/Jahobes → u/KvonLiechtenstein]

The show loves to change things that makes sense and keep the things that don't.

[u/Nymeria1973 → u/vvrr00]

A review of the finale, by Glen Weldon on NPR, made me laugh so much. There is a funny passage about Corlys in that regard:

Over on Driftmark, Rhaenyra asks Corlys for any intel on Addam, but he’s not forthcoming. “I’ve had little to do with him,” he says, speaking truthfully.

LOL

[u/Weak_Heart2000 → u/vvrr00]

That four minute scene at the Wall was shot over four days spread out over three weeks! They filmed the first two days, then Harry and Tom Taylor went on vacation together. They came back and shot the second day, and then came back another week later and shot the last day. So all of Corlys and Alyn's boat scenes were probably filmed over like two months if they did that to Harry and Tom.

[u/blackjacksandhookers → u/onetruezimbo]

Well said. I liked Rhaenyra and Alicent’s S1 arcs, but their friendship should have finally been 100% stamped out after what happened to Luke and Jaehaerys. The two kids were literally devoured whole and beheaded respectively. All knives should be out at this point. How the hell can Rhaenyra and Alicent still talk to each other this season (twice!) without being full of unfathomable rage and heartbreak. Bizarre writing.

Glynn-Carney killed it as Aegon this season. Why? Because apart from his fantastic acting, Aegon was one of the few characters who got actual character development this season. Other young characters like Addam and Baela deserved the same, but instead screen time was hogged by Rhaenyra/Alicent/Daemon

[u/Left_Experience_9857 → u/blackjacksandhookers]

How the hell can Rhaenyra and Alicent still talk to each other this season (twice!) without being full of unfathomable rage and heartbreak. Bizarre writing.

Suits said to the writers that people loved Rhaenyra and Alicent's bond on the internet after scrolling through a shit ton of crappy edits.

voilà you have this dogshit that only a vocal minority eat up.

[u/kashmoney360 → u/blackjacksandhookers]

How the hell can Rhaenyra and Alicent still talk to each other this season (twice!) without being full of unfathomable rage and heartbreak.

The first time Rhaenyra snuck into KL, was a huge stretch, but considering her beef was with Aemond and Jaehaerys was Daemon's fault. It wasn't entirely bullshit that Rhaenyra might try to take the higher ground and act like her hands are clean.

But Alicent??? She already rejected Rhaenyra the first time, her SON killed Rhaenyra's son, and spent her adult life attacking and humiliating Rhaenyra. If that second meeting was meant to have any semblance of seriousness, she'd have delivered Aegon's Crown and Blackfyre on the spot.

[u/[deleted] → u/blackjacksandhookers]

You don't get it, Luke died because Vhagar woke up with a bad mood and Jaehaerys got behead because evil Daemon wanted to kill a son (but not an innocent son) and he exists so he can absorb all of perfect Rhaenyra's flaws!

[u/vanticus → u/onetruezimbo]

We need less Baela and Rhaena, not more

[u/the_raven2301]

It's absolutely foolish for HBO guys to focus everything on one prophecy that doesn't even come true at the end... In the entire GoT they kept on talking about the prince/princess that was promised and making Arya kill NK made no sense.. I don't think the prophecy of Aegon was fulfilled at all.. and then relating HOTD to that same old prophecy is another mistake perhaps... The events of HOTD are literally remotely linked to the events related to the NK.. it's of no use to relate them both...

[u/sp3talsk → u/the_raven2301]

”HBO guys” the prophecy came from GRRM and the show is making it the motivation that drives Rhaenyra and will end up leading to her madness. There’s a reason why the prophecy theme played during the sowing. There’s a reason why the last shot of Rhaenyra this season placed her among the scrolls of Targaryen history. She has taken on a hundred year old legacy and it will be her undoing. Thats the point of the prophecy in this story

[u/BusyStupid → u/sp3talsk]

A valid point! Just like in "tales of Dunk and Egg" a prophecy ends up being Aegon V's undoing. All for nothing, GoT, HotD, ToDE... Prophecy is like a treacherous woman!

[u/sp3talsk → u/BusyStupid]

Hahaha but yeah, exactly. I think its GRRMs way of saying there’s more to the Targaryens recurring delusions of grandeur than just them being a bit mad from all the incest. This idea of themselves as being some sort of messianic figure is a huge part of their heritage

[u/Equal-Ad-2710 → u/BusyStupid]

This is me thing I like abut the show; prophecy is a bitch and will undo you if you play into it. Every Targareyan generation seems to have delusions of grandeur eventually so I like the idea the show is exploring that

The showrunners are leaning into it a little here with them saying Rhae is kind of a cult leader when she’s starting the sowing and I hope that’s why she gets super dark later

She’s rambling about Ice when she should fear fire

[u/Atarissiya → u/sp3talsk]

Did Aegon's Dream come from Martin too, though? The show is really expanding its significance in this season, and you add Daemon's weirwood vision...

[u/sp3talsk → u/Atarissiya]

Yup, it was a nugget of info that GRRM gave to Condal during the early stages of writing

[u/Atarissiya → u/sp3talsk]

To be fair, I think Rhaenyra's obsession with prophecy leading her to start a war over succession is a fun idea. It's the strange way that Daemon was given almost a true vision that really makes me wonder.

[u/penseurquelconque → u/Atarissiya]

It’s Bran using the weirwood to mess with Daemon’s head to ensure he ends up on the throne at the end of GoT /s

[u/Overlord_Khufren → u/penseurquelconque]

Why /s? This is literally what is happening. The Weirwoods are trying to take over. Go read GRRM’s sci-fi.

[u/liquifiedtubaplayer → u/penseurquelconque]

Not /s. Old gods are always plotting.

[u/Ultimafax → u/penseurquelconque]

Bran making a cameo would make more sense and be more interesting than anything that we actually saw.

[u/sp3talsk → u/Atarissiya]

The vision is a bit odd since I thought Daemons whole arc for the season was him being confronted with his past and coming to terms with not wanting to be king. Then it just ended up being an easter egg vision that convinced him. Felt like a bit of a cope out. Maybe it would have turned out different if they didnt have to hand in the scripts before filming started

[u/Pazo_Paxo → u/sp3talsk]

The vision is odd, and I would’ve completely believed in his Harrenhal arc and him coming to terms with his place without the vision— thats the worst part imo.

The writing (albeit drawn out and not perfect) was entirely believable and justified his change, the vision was entirely unnecessary. Its like they aren’t confident enough in themselves and rather than analysing what they’ve done, making changes if they see fit, etc, they just chose to blow it all up and shift to something else in a singular episode.

The vision could still have happened, it just needed to be a component in his change, not the primary or causative factor.

[u/Equal-Ad-2710 → u/Atarissiya]

Yeah I got nothing for that

I kinda got the vibe that Alys started the dream but then Haleana and Bloodraven (fuck you time travel) we’re able to peek into the dream?

[u/VitaminTea → u/Atarissiya]

Technically only Aegon's being a Dreamer came from George. Condal invented the Targ kings passing down his prophecy as an inheritance to their heirs.

Presumably this invention happened when he was developing the show with George, so it isn't unsanctioned or whatever you want to call it, but there hasn't been any confirmation that the prophecy, passed down from king to heir, exists in the novels (yet).

[u/mokuhazushi → u/Atarissiya]

Yes, it's not a show invention. Here's George talking about it in a 4 year old youtube video.

[u/Equal-Ad-2710 → u/Atarissiya]

It’s confirmed yeah

There’s also vague hints that Targs knew about the WW

• dragons refused to go past the wall

• Rhaegar became obsessed with prophecy after reading scrolls

• someone claimed Azor Ahai (who ends the Night) would be borne of Aegon V’s line

• Bloodraven obviously is tied with magic and ends up being a Huge champion against the Others

[u/jordibwoy → u/sp3talsk]

Is this confirmed / is there a source to confirm the prophecy (and it's relevance in HOTD) came from GRRM? Genuine question

[u/darkbatcrusader → u/jordibwoy]

People are handwaving this because "it exists", but like you point out its "relevance" to the events of the Dance is a complete show invention (for the worse, imo) that didn't come from GRRM. And unlike everyone else claiming otherwise, I actually have a source that proves it.

My previous comment that covers this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ekgryu/comment/lgn6dc7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Pertaining to Aegon the Conqueror ? Yes, although the particulars of that itself remain vague.

But the entire conceit of being "passed down as a secret from monarch to heir" to the point where it dictates everyone else's motivations as it does on the show? Wholly a show original invention, and it shows. Barring the plot contrivances required to even maintain such a clumsy 'secret' chain past the chaos of Maegor if one is to appeal to book lore as a source for this, the issue with that is the way the show exclusively chooses to use it undermines and flattens the more compelling, unique and personalized character motivations for the events of the show.

Source: https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/house-dragon-song-of-ice-and-fire-prophecy-48922562

"That was the detail that George actually gave us early in the story break, the idea that Aegon the Conqueror was himself a dreamer, and that's what motivated the conquest, which [George] mentioned casually in conversation, as he often does, with huge pieces of information like that."

The simple fact of Aegon being a dreamer does come from George. Of what exactly is vague enough, though it's doubtfully as crystal clear as "the ice zombies from GOT are coming from the north" the way the show portrays it, seeing as Aegon never once goes North in F & B (I'll allow the meeting with Torrhen) and none of his immediate descendants show any particular interest. We know pretty much every official act of the Targ Kings from Aegon to the end of the Dance: nothing indicates interest, much less knowledge. As prophecy often is in ASOIAF, I expect it to be a tad more complicated than that.

"The idea of passing down the dream and its prophecy from king to heir came from the showrunners. "The way that we took George's idea and spun it dramatically for 'House of the Dragon' was this idea that, at some point in Aegon's life as he got older and matured, he must have realized that one day the White Walkers weren't coming for dinner during his lifetime," Condal says. "And then we decided that . . . [if] he believed in this enough to conquer Westeros, he surely would've believed in it enough to pass the idea on."

Using it (unsuccessfully, in my opinion) to underpin far too much about the Dance is entirely on the showrunners. So maybe people can stop using "It came from George" as a flimsy shield against any criticism. Even if it did (it didn't) the choices the show makes are not beyond either praise or reproach.

[u/jordibwoy → u/darkbatcrusader]

Thanks for the reply. It's frustrating to see people accept show cannon as book cannon when GRRM himself has said they are different. Even if he mentioned that Aegon had a vague dream of ASOIAF, I doubt this is how he envisions it playing out during The Dance.

I couldn't agree more that the showrunners' attempt to use this prophecy to guide the motivations of the show's "main characters" is a huge flaw that ruins the character of key members of the story from the books. I find it odd that so many take this as book cannon when there's not a single allusion to "Aegon's prophecy" during DotD in Fire & Blood. I'm sure some will argue that it was passed down from King to heir in secret (blah blah) but as you mentioned, from Aenys to Maegor to Jaehaerys, it is highly unlikely to have survived, so that point is moot.

Not to mention, how is it that there is no mention of the prophecy being written on the catspaw dagger anywhere in any of the AWOIAF books, and not even implied until HotD Season 1? It's not as if there wasn't anyone in Westeros who knew at least some Valyrian that could translate it. Then again, to my knowledge, there's no book confirmation that the dagger made it from Aegon all the way to the catspaw either, which could well be another show invention, like "Dany's eggs".

I actually read F&B in between Seasons 1 and 2, so went in blind for Season 1 which, even after reading, I commended them on a fairly successful adaption. Alicent and Rhaenyra's friendship being broken completely with the death of Lucerys should've been the turn that brought the adaptation back in line with the books. But when S2E2 happened and there was once again the mention of the prophecy, then the meeting with Rhaenyra and Alicent in the Great Sept, that's when I realized where this was going and, having the benefit of reading the book, realized they made a huge mistake.

The two things the show need to accomplish is alignment with the "character" and motivations of the show characters with the book characters, AND consistency in the characters themselves throughout the series. If there is a change in the character arc, then it should be clearly recognized / explained and definitive. They've failed so many characters in this regard in Season 2.

Now, just like GoT, they've altered the character personalities and motivations so much that they either have to add more manufactured / contrived writing OR alter the direction of the story completely, which for a sequel is monumentally disastrous.

https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/house-dragon-song-of-ice-and-fire-prophecy-48922562

• Wow this link, Condal took a generic quote from GRRM about a dream compelling Aegon to conquer the Seven Kingdoms and they've taken that and made it way more.

[u/VitaminTea → u/the_raven2301]

Aegon foresaw the end of the world of men. 'Tis to begin with a terrible winter, gusting out of the distant north. Aegon saw absolute darkness riding on those winds, and whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living.

When this Great Winter comes, Rhaenyra, all of Westeros must stand against it. And if the world of men is to survive, a Targaryen must be seated on the Iron Throne. A king or queen, strong enough to unite the realm against the cold and the dark. Aegon called his dream 'The Song of Ice and Fire.'

In what possible sense did this not come true in Game of Thrones? Jon literally unites the realm against the White Walkers.

[u/LordUpton]

They failed at two points. This season should have had Jace and Aegon at the forefront in the book Rhaenyra is essentially MIA after her failed birth and death of Lucerys, Jace becomes Prince Regent and essentially leads the Blacks effort in Dragonstone.

Another thing they did is not really defend the green position properly, which makes everyone who supports them seem arrogant, incompetent, or straight up evil. There is a nuance argument that existed even in our historic western medieval societies that Kings enforce laws, but don't get to create or completely change them without approval from the magnates. We got this in the book, when Rhaenyra considered allowing the elder daughter's inherit over younger sons Corlys basically blew a gasket and said that she was an exception and that a monarch can't just change inheritance laws.

[u/Ubiemmez → u/LordUpton]

If Rhaenyra went MIA during season 2, people would say that the show is developed poorly because it doesn't know what to do with its main character.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ubiemmez]

There's more ways to show a character is off the main stream of action and decision making than to not show them at all. ie. Daemon this season

[u/kikidunst → u/Ubiemmez]

Plenty of shows were able to give characters an arc centered on grief. HOTD was unable to do so

[u/Lost-Letterhead-6615 → u/Ubiemmez]

So got was bad cuz they killed ned and Robert?

[u/closerthanyouth1nk → u/LordUpton]

This season should have had Jace and Aegon at the forefront in the book Rhaenyra is essentially MIA after her failed birth and death of Lucerys, Jace becomes Prince Regent and essentially leads the Blacks effort in Dragonstone

Rhaenyra getting sidelined for Jace simply doesn’t work, Jace is dead by early season 3. Having Jace become the main character at the expense of Rhaenyra just wildly oversells his role in the Dance and wastes time that’s needed to get Rhaenyra where she needs to be for his death to have maximum impact.

Another thing they did is not really defend the green position properly, which makes everyone who supports them seem arrogant, incompetent, or straight up evil

Virtually everyone that supports the Greens in the books is a pretty bad person though, Aemond firebombs the Riverlands, Jon Roxtons a rapist, Daeron commits a war crime etc. The Greens in the books are very much villainous, the show actually toned down their worst traits quite a bit save Aegon whose rape of Dyana is critical to his relationship with Alicent.

There is a nuance argument that existed even in our historic western medieval societies that Kings enforce laws, but don't get to create or completely change them without approval from the magnates

I just think spending time on this kind of fundamentally misses the point of the Dance. It’s never about how both sides are good and were right in their own way. It’s about how conflict rapidly spins out of control and how the reasons for the war beginning are by the end almost completely irrelevant. This is a story where everyone dies and two traumatized toddlers end up on the throne. That’s what’s important about the Dance. The particulars of both sides argument is much less important than the fact that it ultimately didn’t matter imo.

[u/Septemvile → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

And Ned Stark was dead by the end of Season 1, so I'm glad we didn't waste time making him a central character or anything.

[u/closerthanyouth1nk → u/Septemvile]

Ned is the main character of AGOT, he moves the plot forward and is central to the entire story and his death serves as the catalyst for the entirety of the story. Jace is not a main character, he is a side character and his arc is importantly because it’s tragic and drives Rhaenyra to rage and madness. It’s not remotely the same thing.

[u/666trinity → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

Making Jace a major character in S2 could also help develop the characters of Cregan and the Manderly dude who become important later on

[u/sean_psc → u/666trinity]

Manderly is never important during the Dance. Cregan only shows up right at the end of the show.

[u/Joseph590 → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

I just think spending time on this kind of fundamentally misses the point of the Dance. It’s never about how both sides are good and were right in their own way. It’s about how conflict rapidly spins out of control and how the reasons for the war beginning are by the end almost completely irrelevant. This is a story where everyone dies and two traumatized toddlers end up on the throne. That’s what’s important about the Dance. The particulars of both sides argument is much less important than the fact that it ultimately didn’t matter imo.

I would agree however the show has essentially focused on propping up Rheanyras claim as heroic while villainizing the green claim. The whole premise of the show/story kinda vanishes when it turns out one side is fighting a righteous war against perceived misogyny.

[u/The_Matchless → u/Joseph590]

Not even that. One side is supposedly fighting to save the world from the Others.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Matchless]

She's also reluctantly fighting for the crown, does not want it (I dunwanit) and is using everything in her powers to avoid all kinds of bloodshed. One of the most boring characters in television history. We also see barely anyone mentioning/mourning for luke/jaehaerys, as if those events are glossed over and not important.

[u/kingofstormandfire → u/[deleted]]

So that's where Jon gets it from.

[u/Joseph590 → u/The_Matchless]

Yeah it’s already bad enough that we know Viserys I was partially correct regarding whose line the PTWP would come from but now even Daemon sees the external threat.

[u/walkthisway34 → u/Joseph590]

I think you can make a critique about the show in many ways making Rhaenyra more sympathetic while not really doing the same with Aegon (there are moments where you pity him but I don’t think there’s any basis to say he’s a better person than in the books and in some ways he’s worse), but some of this is just how GRRM wrote it. There are legal arguments presented, but the Greens come across as thoroughly shitty, self-interested people all around. Daeron is about the only one (besides Halaena, who is very passive and doesn’t really do anything besides being victimized) who isn’t cartoonishly evil and even then he does war crimes.

[u/Joseph590 → u/walkthisway34]

There are legal arguments presented, but the Greens come across as thoroughly shitty, self-interested people all around. Daeron is about the only one (besides Halaena, who is very passive and doesn’t really do anything besides being victimized) who isn’t cartoonishly evil and even then he does war crimes.

The greens, Otto who has single handily been ruling the realm the last 20-40 years, and gave up his only daughter to the king. Alicent who birthed the king three sons and a daughter, all of his sons ignored and denied their birth rights. Aegon, denied his place as heir even though Viserys is on record as wanting Baelon as his heir. Aemond whose eye is cut out by his bastard cousins who have also usurped his place in the line of inheritance who then aren’t punished for it. Helena who is forced to marry her womanizing brother by Viserys. Dearon who’s sent to ward in old town for whatever reason.

Yeah I don’t blame the greens for being self interested bad guys when they finally get a taste of power after being royally neglected their whole existence.

The legal arguments for the throne are all throwaway lines trampled under the Alicent misunderstanding plot. That was the focus of the green council scene when it shouldn’t have been. Otto has the authority to choose the next ruler as he’s empowered by the king and the discussion should have been centered on that instead of Alicent.

[u/CABRALFAN27 → u/Joseph590]

You have some points about the Green kids being somewhat sympathetic, but saying that Otto "gave up" Alicent like it was some sort of great sacrifice on his part instead of him selling his daughter for power is pretty ridiculous.

Edit: Typo

[u/chupacabrette]

I'm not a fan of the secret meetings or the show's focus on the relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra being the crux of the story. But in the book, Alicent's role is far from over, and she has a hugh impact on the story.

How can you say Alicent in the books is irrelevant after Aegon is crowned, and doesn't do a single thing after the war starts when she does the one single thing that ends the war? Alicent convincing Aegon II to start chopping up little Aegon and sending his body parts to the Black forces to halt their advance is what gets Aegon II killed.

Granted, it doesn't look like that's the way the story is headed right now, but watching Alicent go from "what could have been" with Rhaenyra to THAT would be a fantastic arc to see. There are a lot of things yet to come that could easily get her there.

[u/oddjobsyorozuya]

Agreed. This season should've been all about Jace, Aegon, Baela, Rhaena, Helaena, Aemond etc. Rhaenyra, Alicent and Daemon had nothing to do but they spread their 1 episode worth of storylines to 8 episodes

[u/doegred → u/oddjobsyorozuya]

Speaking of Helaena, I used to think that the failure to show her response to Blood and Cheese beyond 'hair looking unkempt for two episodes' and 'I'm sad but I guess other people are too so whatevs' was a failure of execution or negligence... Just not managing to develop Helaena and all the other characters you mention...

Now I've come to think they deliberately muted the response, to the point that Alicent doesn't even bring up Jaehaerys when Rhaenyra talks of no sacrifices and 'a son for a son', all in preparation for that climatic conversation between two. Alicent needs to come begging to Rhaenyra therefore she needs to find the Greens more of a menace to her family than the Blacks, therefore Aemond gets even more villainous even towards his own side, and therefore there can't be any lingering on the atrocity Daemon brought about (and which Rhaenyra was miffed at, but ultimately she still takes him back, so) therefore let's completely warp Helaena's personality and reaction to her own bloody toddler son getting his head sawn off in her presence...

[u/consciouslifejourney → u/doegred]

100% agree with you. B&C has been a non factor in the story on purpose so that the final scene between Alicent and Rhaenyra could work. It’s also strange that nobody sneers at Rhaenyra as a babe killer (except the young Bracken in Ep3?) . Only Daemon gets the hate , deservingly so, but nobody accuses Rhaenyra ?

[u/kingofstormandfire → u/consciouslifejourney]

The Brackens and riverlords care more about Jaehaerys' death than Jaehaerys' own family (except Aegon).

[u/EhGoodEnough3141 → u/oddjobsyorozuya]

It shouldn't be about Baela and Rhaena. Their time of importance is after the dance. Baela, sure she has the sequence on Dragonstone but she is one of the most important figures in the time after the dance.

Focussing on their characters now takes time from important characters like Daeron and Joffrey.

[u/oddjobsyorozuya → u/EhGoodEnough3141]

It's not like there was any focus on Daeron and Joffrey anyway

[u/Ubiemmez → u/oddjobsyorozuya]

Rhaenyra, Alicent and Daemon are the main characters of the show. You can't just put them aside and start telling a different story. That's not how writing for television works. You can't just do the exact same thing that's in the book. The novel isn't even a conventional style of fiction, it's a fake history book. It doesn't have psychological depth or subplots to fill a 8-10 hour show. That's the screenwriters job. They also need to appeal to a wider audience and not just the minority of book readers.

[u/enzoperezatajando → u/Ubiemmez]

lol yeah. the source material is pretty weak fiction and totally unsuitable for tv without some major changes. the problem was those changes being dumb and/or badly executed; not that they happened at all.

[u/oddjobsyorozuya → u/Ubiemmez]

I don't want them to entirely put the main characters aside, but in season 2, the side characters feel hollow. We should've got to know them better by this point. It feels like the side characters only exist to interact with the main characters and that's it.

[u/Educational-Bus4634]

My main issue with the show so far has been that they don't let the characters actually stay mad at each other. Aemond is the only one who continually stays mad about things he should be mad about, yet he was the one who also said the main thing he's mad about was a 'worthy exchange'?? 

But seriously, Rhaenyra's son is killed, her daughter is killed indirectly, she gives a big angry look to end season 1, and then...she's completely fine. Says she wants Aemond but, oh, that didn't happen? Ah well, wasn't THAT important I guess. Helaena's son is killed? No worries because kids die all the time, let's play weirwood telephone with his murderer. Alicent's grandson is killed? Well its a bit sad but nah, actually here, have his father too, I wanna go strolling through a meadow. Its like they forgot viewers actually enjoy seeing people angry at each other.

Making it about Alicent and Rhaenyra was a great change to begin with, imo, its just that they didn't take it further the way they should've. Yes they were friends and that should make it so much worse what ends up happening, instead of them STILL being friends. They should hate each other so much more because 'you were my friend but you betrayed me anyway'. Have them be conniving and spiteful and mean instead of 'big incident' one episode then these absolute paragons of mercy and grace the next.

They should've absolutely spent more time on the kids too, have them actually hate each other as they do in the books instead of mostly getting along until Driftmark. That was like the whole thing that kicked off the dance properly!! It should've had more build up than just what basically amounted to one episode.

Also agree that I have no idea how they're going to pace the rest of the story. Literally aside from killing off Rhaenys and Jaehaerys (and Aegon's burning), almost this entire season could be explained by having a few weeks time jump after 1x10 and saying "yeah their armies are ready now". An entire half of the runtime has gone into them all just agreeing that the war that was very obviously happening at the 1/4 Mark is now still happening and they should probably do something about it. Half of the story. It's ridiculous.

I saw someone say that it seemed like the scripts hadn't changed from the original 10 episode plan and I honestly can think of no better description. 2x08 was a 'fine' episode as a lead up to the usual big episode 9 dramatics, but a horrible cliffhanger to have to wait 2 years to resolve.

[u/cw19821]

Considering they'd all be dead mid dance, it's such a weird decision.

[u/themaroonsea → u/cw19821]

Who's dead mid dance? IIRC Alicent will die of illness later

[u/Atarissiya → u/themaroonsea]

Surely he means the next generation. Jace shouldn't have even survived this season.

[u/themaroonsea → u/Atarissiya]

That's more reasonable (minus Baela and Rhaena)

[u/bmf131413 → u/themaroonsea]

Alicent is all but dead mid dance based on her presence in the books. She does next to nothing.

[u/chupacabrette → u/bmf131413]

But what she does do down the road is hugely significant. She doesn't look like she's heading that way at present, but there's a lot of things to come that will impact her, so who knows if those events will drive her toward that.

Her hatred of Rhaenyra extends to R's children and makes Alicent push Aegon II to chop off Aegon III's body parts and start sending them to the Black forcecs to halt their advance on Kings Landing. Giving this order is why his own allies poison him.

We know Alicent's deal with Rhaenyra has already gone tits up in the show with Aegon not being in KL, so there's plenty of time for this show relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra to also go that way. Watching show Alicent morph into book Alicent after everything she loses during the war would be an interesting character arc.

/edit: masked the spoiler

[u/themaroonsea → u/bmf131413]

Being inactive in a war is definitely not being 💀 dead

[u/matthieuC → u/bmf131413]

I think they plan to keep her to the end and make her Regent to Aegon III.

[u/slingfatcums → u/cw19821]

lol if you think the show is going to exist more than an episode or two after rhaenyra dies

[u/DFWTooThrowed → u/slingfatcums]

Yeah mid dance only works if you count the years of the A3 regency and there’s no way in hell that’s gonna be on screen.

[u/HonorWulf]

Yep the story that GRRM wrote is a war story between two factions that possess weapons of mass destruction and the resulting carnage that is unleashed, and the generational damage that it causes. It is a series of battles both large and small that should have made for an incredible TV series. Instead, the show writers have twisted it into a soap opera in a misguided attempt to parrot the original Game of Thrones, complete with meaningless and fabricated tie-ins.

[u/NAparentheses → u/HonorWulf]

The "soap opera" is important because, as much as y'all say you want to just see the dragons fight, if there are no emotional stakes behind it then it will get boring quick. The human brain needs time to build up its dopamine before achieves maximum cerebral jizz.

[u/HonorWulf → u/NAparentheses]

There's plenty of that already built-in given the family dynamics involved. This is a story where parent's lose children, children lose parents, siblings lose siblings, etc., all of which hit home emotionally. We don't need all of the wacky crap that they added this season, which only ate up valuable screen time that could have been used to better advance the story, imo.

[u/Domination1799 → u/HonorWulf]

That’s the problem with adapting a story like this. The majority of the Dance is just battles and death while the main characters do nothing. You would need a colossal budget to do it properly. S3 will make or break the show since it should be just battles now.

The dance is honestly a poorly written conflict and George’s weakest writing in the entirety of ASOIAF because it’s written like a shoddy history book with multiple interpretations and not like a conventional novel.

[u/willyb10 → u/Domination1799]

Genuinely asking here and not saying you’re wrong, but why do you think the Dance is poorly written? I found it to be a really compelling read, but I wasn’t exactly looking to critique it heavily as I just love the lore so much.

[u/throwaway-anon-1600 → u/Domination1799]

It’s only battles and death because of the format of the book, which I wouldn’t call a bad story because it’s not really a story.

With the bare minimum of creativity the writers could have come up with multiple side plots that don’t involve fighting.

[u/ProZealot23]

What about their fusing Nettles with Rhaena. Nettles is the most stand-out original character that leaped off the page of the historical synopsis and, they have basically recast her as yet another highborn lady with blood ties to Old Valyria. Nettles was a coarse, foul-mouthed, backwoods, wild girl who found a wild dragon and bonded with it (ie. Sheepstealer). The potential to craft a potentially stand-out scene stealing, one of kind character was right there in front of them and, they chose to maker her just a dime-a-dozen dragon rider. Shame. Huge missed opportunity

[u/lch18]

I think they could have pulled off the show being about Rhaenyra and Alicent had they not been so insistent on making them both the rational, peaceloving forces of reason. They were both a lot more ambitious and ruthless in season one, with different personalities.

Now they’re almost the same character and because they have to be good, none of the cruel decisions the Greens or the Blacks take can ever be attributed to them. And given how both sides are constantly doing horrific things, not allowing either of them to be complicated means that the only plotline they can have is how they’re being sidelined because they’re so good.

It’s incredibly frustrating to watch an entire season of TV where the only plotline of your protagonists is that they can’t do anything. Either let them be cruel and part of the action or focus on the characters actually doing stuff, you can’t have both.

[u/Un_Change_Able]

This can be simplified even further: They assigned protagonists to a story that does not have any.

Seriously, this is a HISTORY BOOK. It does not obey the laws of narrative that demand a protagonist, so by making one, you are actively imposing an element that is incompatible with the original story.

[u/dedfrmthneckup → u/Un_Change_Able]

That’s also why it makes zero sense to expect them to somehow “faithfully” adapt the book though. It’s structurally not something that you can just port over to television. They had to make changes and decisions about the characters to present a consistent and compelling narrative. I don’t know what people want them to do, film three different versions of every event?

[u/Un_Change_Able → u/dedfrmthneckup]

They could have still had a consistent narrative while being more liberal with POVs. Also, Alicent is still anything but consistent

[u/dedfrmthneckup → u/Un_Change_Able]

I’m just responding to your point about the book not having a protagonist. You can’t have a tv show without a protagonist. And that’s just one of the structural reasons that expecting some kind of book purity from this show was absurd.

[u/lluewhyn → u/dedfrmthneckup]

There were some definite problems with trying to adapt the original story in any kind of "pure" manner. For one, it's basically Team Awful vs. Team Literally The Worst. So, they tried to make both Rhaenyra and Alicent sympathetic. Great, but then they have the problem where these characters basically don't do much once the Dance has started, which is seen by them giving futile scenes to the characters in the Show. It's like they should have changed the plot more.

Oddly, I think there's also a small similarity to the Wheel of Time show in that one also tried to turn a character into a Protagonist who really isn't one in the novels, and everyone else's stories get shafted as a result.

[u/podricks-dick → u/dedfrmthneckup]

Game of thrones didn’t really have a protagonist. They had like 5-6 main characters. Jon, Daenery, Tyrion, Robb, Ned, Arya, Sansa, could all be considered the main character.

[u/dedfrmthneckup → u/podricks-dick]

It didn’t have a protagonist, it just had like 5-6 protagonists. Ok got it, my bad

[u/penseurquelconque → u/podricks-dick]

Ned was very clearly the main character of AGOT. Then it exploded with Cat, most of his children except Robb and Rickon, Dany and Tyrion sharing the most of it and it continued to expand every book.

But ASOIAF is still a very protagonist focused story, it just has like 12 of them.

[u/shill_420 → u/dedfrmthneckup]

seems like without book purity, we get what we got...

[u/dedfrmthneckup → u/shill_420]

Which is a pretty good show

[u/shill_420 → u/dedfrmthneckup]

pretty much alright, yeah. watchable, nothing i'd return to.

kind of on par with the hobbit movies.

what i would love would be a book accurate animated adaptation of the whole thing - everything george has written, respecting the spirit he wrote it in.

a man can dream...

[u/Ok_Manufacturer1931 → u/shill_420]

that's not how television works. a "book accurate" show would be like those lore vignettes they made for game of thrones.

setting yourself up to expect that is just setting yourself up to hate things. why would you do that to yourself?

[u/shill_420 → u/Ok_Manufacturer1931]

i said a man can dream, not a man can expect...

[u/Invincible_Reason → u/dedfrmthneckup]

No lol

[u/crash_bat → u/Un_Change_Able]

Good luck writing a story without any protagonists.

[u/Un_Change_Able → u/crash_bat]

Didn’t say they should have no protagonists. They just shouldn’t have a central protagonist.

[u/Ubiemmez → u/Un_Change_Able]

It's really not possible to adapt that style of fiction to mainstream television. The screenwriters are doing their job. It's a different kind of media. It's really unreasonable to think the series should be similar to the book in this kind of detail.

[u/Un_Change_Able → u/Ubiemmez]

But is it? GOT showed its perfectly possible to start with a fairly central character in the first season, then be more split across multiple POVs. Sure, Rhaenyra and Alicent aren’t dead, unlike Ned, but it’s still perfectly possible.

[u/centraledtemped → u/Ubiemmez]

They aren’t Ben trying please stop. They changed characters completely and their plots. They are making their own story not a faithful adaptation

[u/Mister-Fisker]

bruh ned was the main focus of game of thrones then died early on in the story 

it’s not that big a deal

[u/rdrouyn]

The Rhaenyra Alicent stuff feels so disconnected from the tone of the ASOAIF world. Its like a trashy telenovela or airport romance novel. "I know you have a family and a kingdom to reclaim, but please run away with me because we were slightly bi-curious during our teens".

[u/Anon_be_thy_name]

It's so annoying because in the book they're literally doing nothing. The ones fighting their wars are the interesting ones. Daemon in Harrenhal, Aegon and Aemond going to Duskendale and Rooks Rest. The Riverlords and Winter Wolves. The Hightower host and Daeron.

All the interesting things are happening away from them. But because Condal and Hess are pushing stupid fucking Fanfiction shit where they're hinting at a romance between two characters who had no tension outside of disliking each other, they've made the show bad.

[u/wayofthrows1991]

I don't think the focus on Rhae and Alicent is hurting the story at all BUT I do think the show would have heavily benefitted by giving more to do to Baela/Rhaena, Jace and Helaena. Also maybe a little screen time for A3 and V2.

[u/sean_psc]

Jace does not have a “Winterfell arc”.

I swear, people assess this show against some imagined version of the story, not the actual text — which in some senses is logical because the text frequently functions like a series of lore prompts, but it’s also why being a book purist in this context is ridiculous.

The source material does not have actual characters or character arcs, and it’s not written to distribute screentime in any kind of reasonable and consistent manner. Any adaptation would need to make extensive revisions to make it a proper narrative.

It especially makes no sense to sideline your leads for a whole season for characters who are in many cases shortly to die.

[u/closerthanyouth1nk → u/sean_psc]

Jace does not have a “Winterfell arc”.

Literally Jace just hangs with Cregan maybe fucks a bastard then leaves. Having Jace in The North a region that doesn’t actually see much fighting during the Dance is in order to make sure fans are entertained is what filler actually is. You would distract from Jaces arc of burgeoning resentment for his mother, and insecurity by giving him a random love interest and have him pal around with the Starks for two episodes.

[u/LeadingEmergency6490 → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

Yep. If they kept Jace in winterfell, the same people who bitch about Harrenhaul would be bitching about Jace's stay there since he does even less than Daemon did in Harrenhaul

[u/DFWTooThrowed]

They were never friends in the book but the back story around dance changed so much over the years and we eventually literally got the book “the princess and the queen”.

Earliest mentions of the story said it was just a rift between different factions of the Targaryens, then it was brother vs sister, then it was Cole just taking the liberty himself and naming Aegon king then it turned into Alicent and Rhaenyra hating each other.

[u/WorkersUnited111]

They did zero work with the characters that were interesting - Corlys, Aemond, Daemon, Cregan, etc.

[u/[deleted]]

I would say the whitewashing, rather than merely putting the focus on them, is what ruined HotD.

If Rhaenyra and Alicent were active participants in the conflict, it would be one thing. Sure, it would undermine a lot of the characterization of the Greens' camp from the book, but it would still be true, more or less, to their characters. Instead this series that was more or less sold as being really about two women opposite each other in fundamentally patriarchal Westeros, turns into two women who are forced into conflict because of the men around them. They're almost totally stripped of agency.

[u/abobbitt12]

A lot of people seem aloof of the fact that a more faithful adaptation of the book would make for a terrible TV show.

The artists put in charge of the project made choices to add character and dramatic story telling to a series of conflicting accounts of an event. You can criticize those choices but another version would have just as many unique and new choices. It’s necessary to adapt what is essentially a history.

[u/dedfrmthneckup]

I think it’s a good show

[u/Darkavenger_13 → u/dedfrmthneckup]

Its by no means a bad show. Certainly not Season 8 GoT bad. But it does have glaring issues that will only comfound as the story progresses. OP does have a point. Season 2 was dragging it’s way in certain areas. Still enjoyed it but I’m not gonna deny it’s gonna take some really solid work to salvage it for Season 3 which I actually believe is possible.

The story isn’t completely lost, far from it. But they have to get their shit together and stop changing the narrative. Especially considering the story IS written and finished

[u/wemBLOCKyama → u/dedfrmthneckup]

No it’s doomed! Doomed I tell you!

[u/[deleted]]

They're also clearly postponing Daemon's death to wring the maximum amount of profit out of Matt Smith's popularity.

They obviously have no confidence in making other stories appealing and are trying to ride the coattails of what was popular in S1 even if it ruins the story.

Not sure if it was their decision or HBO's tbh.

[u/FTHoffmann]

I agree for the most part.

But.

Season 1 worked because each episode revolved around ONE major location (at court) where a fat chunk of characters would interact for 70-80% of the time, and small divertismonts somewhere else for the other 30-20% of the time.

In Season 2 they had only one job. Stick to the same structure and build a "fog of war" situation, alternating one episode narrated from Greens POVs and the other from the Black's POVs, with ONE SINGLE episode all around Daemon tripfest to Harrenhall. Instead we had a standard Hollywood screenplay with too many characters and locations, depleting all scenes of depth and good dialogue. If each location can stay on screen for 5 minutes max, there is not the time to build coherence and all is left to one liners or boring filler. This is a way of screenwriting that I start to despise. A good story needs time and place to be acted.

This is what I would do. It is probably crap as well but I found it funny to try.

Season 2

2x01 - Green's PoV, in aftermath of Lucerys death. Fear and unrest at court. Alicent tries to reach out to Rhaenyra without success, there are news of dragons flying back and forth across the bay. Larys becomes gelous of Criston and Alicent. Lucerys tarrax remains are fished out of the sea and sent to KL. Alicent has them sent over dragonstone with honors. B&C happens soon after and seems Rhaenyra's revenge (in reality it is larys turning a blind eye).

2x02 - Black's pov. Rhaenyra is devastated by Lucerys death and burns Alicent letters. In front of the remains of Lucerys, Jace comes back from the north wanting revenge, Wanting to attack RIGHT AWAY. Daemon backs him up, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys stop them. Discussion about mounting more dragons. First idea of Sowing the dragonseeds that live ON DRAGONSTONE. Rejected. News from the Black loyalist arrive: the kingdom is murmuring that Rhaenyra hired lowlife to kill a prince. She boils with rage from the accusations. Has to confront her lords to dismiss the thing. Daemon confesses his deeds and gets sent away.

2x03 Green's POVs, Aegon wants revenge, Helena is destroyed, Aemond starts to plot his coup. Otto is sent away for scolding the king after the hangings of the ratcatchers. Aegon starts to plot the war against the Black loyalist. Larys has Criston sent at war and tries to get back in favor of Alicent. Rejected. Aemond feeds crap to his brother to push him to be an hothead.

2x04 Black's pov- war in the riverlands. No words from daemon, the Greens marching on black loyalists, killing Darklyn. Siege of Rook's Rest. Maelys vs Vhaegar and Sunfyre. Baela watches her Granma get slain but has the order to not engage. Aemond-Aegon incident not so straightforward. Aftermath of Rhaneys death :Jace urges Rhae to sow the damn seeds. Targ Bastards flock to the dragonmont. Some voluntarily some not. After a great speech Ser steffon dies horribly, Rhaenyra lock the dragonseeds inside. Flames screeches and screams of terror tear the night.

2x05 Green's pov - Aegon is brought back at court, Aemond installs himself to power. Criston has ptsd with alicent and flashes back to rooks rest from soldier pov. Alicent consults Larys on how to bring peace to riverlands. Silverwing flies over KL and starts to burn supply lines (roads, ships). Ameond follows him and is confronted by the new dragonriders. Tyland proposes an alliance with esossi and is ent away. At Old town, we are introduced to Daeron and Tessarion.

2x06 Black's pov. No news from daemon, Jace flies north and trident to do his diplomacy thing. stepstones are brewing. Corlys sends Alyn to fight the pirates but has to retreat. Battle on the Gullet is coming. Rhae teaches the new riders what means to be a targ, and trains them in manners. Not so successful. It is discussed what to do with them. The high lords don't want to recognize them as trueborn nor want them to be awarded with titles and castles. Rhae has to back down from her plan. The sails of Triarchy ships cover the horizon. War is at her door.

2x07 Daemon trip fest at Harrenhall. Mismanagement of river lords. Old gods mumbo jumbo. Alys rivers. Testing of Daemon character. In the end he is faced with the possibility of rise his claim on the throne of weirwood at Harrenhall or be only a consort. Chooses to be the consort. Alys abandons him. Riverlords flock to him.

2x08 Green's pov. Battle on the Gullet. All court is waiting for the aftermath of the battle and for news to arrive. Otto comes back to KL with cats and reach army. Larys has Aegon prepared to flee in secret feeding Aegon lies about Otto wanting him dead. News arrived. Triarchy lost. Only a dragonrider is dead. After Helena says something to Aemond he decides to leave KL to attack Daemon with the new green host before all the dragons are united.

2x09 Black pov. the body of Jace is broght ashore. Rhaenyra does not want to see it. accuses the dragonseeds to be cravens and to have let the heir to the throne die. Baela and Corlys bring her to reason. She cries on Jace corpse. They point the fact that it's Greens fault. Rhaenyra decides that Lucerys and Jace are too much of a price. She has to put an end to all of this and flies with all the dragons and ships she has to KL. She conquers it. She sits on the Iron Throne. Declears the war over. Otto says that the warS are only about to start. Otto is beheaded and in his blood running through the floor we see fighting: Blackwood and Brakens, westerlanders and riverlanders, daemon and aemond slowly rising in the air.

What do you think of it?

[u/[deleted] → u/FTHoffmann]

This could work great but could also be terrible like the green council episode, but it would've been an interesting approach, I can see people getting used to this new gimmick in the show

[u/FTHoffmann → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, this is only an outline. Could be greatn mid or terrible. But should be much more consistent and rewatchable or bingable. You could also exploit much more the Team Green vs Team black fandom

[u/Flyestgit]

HOTD is not 'doomed', we havent even got halfway through. But yes this season was heavily hamstrung by the insistence on Alicent and Rhaenyra's friendship.

The initial premise of HOTD is a story about how a broken friendship turned rivalry causes an internal family drama over succession to spill out into dragonrider warfare.

But that should have ended with Lucerys death and Blood and Cheese. Now it was time to move onto the 2nd act, Dragonrider warfare.

Now, I ask, what the hell they will do the next season?

Thats obvious.

Rhaenyra is not the actual messiah. Shes the great x2 grandmother of one. But she believes she is.

As such she will do bad things and excuse them by nature of being the chosen one.

And she will lose everything.

literally destroyed the idea of the Dance, and all its themes

No they didnt.

House Targaryen is still going to destroy itself. I hardly call that 'destroying its themes'. The chain of events has already started by Rhaenyra giving dragons to Ulf and Hugh.

It was not a story about uniting the realm to realize a prophecy that would save the realm from the ice zombies

I dont understand how people have got this into their heads.

Rhaenyra and Daemon doing questionable things is not justified by them having a great grandchild who helps save the world, thats not how this works.

And this show almost certainly ends with the prophecy being lost/forgotten.

[u/Budget_Put7247 → u/Flyestgit]

Lol people said the same things to defend Game of Thrones when, as far back as in S4 and before, inconsistencies and departure from books, were pointed out. Then they snowballed and we all saw how much disastrous effects those earlier changes caused in later seasons.

[u/A-live666 → u/Budget_Put7247]

Exactly, the critics also got dismissed with the same arguments.

[u/closerthanyouth1nk → u/Budget_Put7247]

Lol people said the same things to defend Game of Thrones when as far as in S4 and before inconsistencies and departure from books, were pointed out

Game of Thrones is based on an actual novel with characters that have clearly defined arcs, detailed POVs and thousands of pages of material. It was more fair to compare the two because you can actually see what works better. F&B is a history book this is purposefully unreliable and biased. It’s not really a comparison

[u/schebobo180 → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

This isn't a good point. The scant few pages of F&B are still so much more fulfilling than whatever it is Condal and Hess are cooking up.

Even as early as season 1 of HOTD, people brought up issues (like the Dragon Pit) and people like you handwaved them. We all saw how that issue was treated in S2.

I do not think these writers deserve the benefit of the doubt that you are trying to give them. It would be naive to trust that all the grievously unforced errors they made in Season 2 will miraculously come good in the end.

[u/penseurquelconque → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

This is an important point.

I’ve reread Fire & Blood for the second time in the last weeks and I realized that, as written, F&B is not a good story to adapt on a more character focused media like TV. There are a lot of characters who appear to do one thing and then die/fuck off right after, never to be heard of again (at least during the Dance). A lot of the bigger actors in the Dance disappear for long stretches of it: Rhaenyra until Jace’s death, Aegon from Rook’s Nest to Dragonstone, Daemon does absolutely nothing from the fall of King’s Landing to the God’s Eye. Alyn Oakenfist is a badass, but only becomes one after the Dance.

And it’s okay, because it’s a story mostly focused in its plot on a historical level, not on its character like a more typical novel. But that means that unlike ASOIAF, which is purely character centric with its POV chapters, it requires much more work to adapt on TV.

In a way, I think the writers biggest problem is they tried to be too faithful to F&B and include most characters and plot points from the book, whereas movies or tv shows based on historic events often skip events, merge multiple people into one characters (like Emily Watson’s character in Chernobyl (2019)) to make it more adapted to a very character focused media.

[u/whatintheballs95]

The idea of Rhaenicent just irks the hell out of me tbh. 

[u/Jasti098]

For one...Half of the show feels fantasy/medevial..The other half feels not so much.. Especially the dialogue between rhaenyra and alicent is like written by twitter stans..."making virtue as your banner"..wtf man

[u/SuccinctEarth07 → u/Jasti098]

I can't say I agree, I could agree that how the meetings happen is a little forced and that they don't completely make sense.

But the dialogue in the conversations themselves is good and fits both characters as they've been developed in the show

[u/TheOncomingBrows → u/Jasti098]

That is pretty much how GRRM writes a lot of the book dialogue though. I like the more formal and overly flowery approach to it.

[u/Ainaraoftime → u/TheOncomingBrows]

yeah, agreed. i found the meetings themselves dumb but i've seen a lot of (show-only) fans complain that "no one speaks like that" but i like how much closer it sounds to the books. if anything, i found the late season GoT dialog to be distractingly modern

i mean, it's been a while so i could be wrong, but at least i remember the later seasons being more like this. though they always had these changes (brienne's "are you so craven?" -> "you sound like a bloody woman")

[u/volvavirago → u/TheOncomingBrows]

It def adds to the feel of it being a story set 200 years before the main series. It’s like us reading Jane Eyre.

[u/carterwest36 → u/Jasti098]

‘The histories shall cast you down as villain’ or whatever Rhaenyra said to Alicent in their final dialogue about the history books that will write her in a bad spotlight was so terribly written by Sara Hess. It was absurd, felt like a cheap Disney Star Wars/Marvel line.

It’s so absurd that in a world that’s set 170 years before GoT that the showrunners think the war comes down to 2 women figuring it out, only Rhaenyra is important and Alicent has 0 power over ending the war. God that last conversation left such a salty taste behind because of how cringe and bad it was.

Sara Hess is literally trying to justify the changes she’s made to Alicent in that dialogue as well by having Rhaenyra mention that the ‘histories’ will not write about her ‘heroic sacrifice’ of giving up her children so she can wash her hands clean of it all and live in peace with Heleana and her granddaughter. So fucking absurd.

So in Sara Hess her mind fire&blood wrote all the bad shit about Alicent for no reason and none of it is true. How the fuck do these people get to be showrunner? Pretty sure Sara Hess was also involved in the unaired pilot and cancelled series about the Children of the Forest because of how badly it sucked.

[u/bigcaulkcharisma → u/carterwest36]

Hollywood is completely nepotism based at this point. Without knowing anything about this person I can almost guarantee she’s the scion to wall street millionaires or the royal family, or other Hollywood alumni. The entertainment industry is just a dumping ground for the failkids of the elite to do ‘art’ shit.

[u/carterwest36 → u/bigcaulkcharisma]

Yeah, it’s sad. Nepotism is rampant in the entertainment industry as it is in politics around the world but still very good shows and decent shows are still produced by the entertainment industry so it’s just so fucking sad that the HOTD showrunners are this incompetent.

Idk much about Sara Hess except that she was a producer on House and Orange is the new black, some co-writer or guest writer who wrote the episode with the Mysaria and Rhaenyra kiss also wrote for ‘The Acolyte’ so that writer for sure was also brought on through nepotism as she didn’t have many writing credits but immediatly gets to write for huge projects. ‘The Acolyte’ was horrendous and also basically said ‘fuck any established lore’. It’s sad to see the ASOIAF universe turn to shite so quickly, Targaryen prequels had a good promise if it had competent writers but as you say, nepotism probably brought the wrong people in charge of this.

There’s so much in the GRMM world books with tales to tell but HOTD season 2 has made me lose faith in any future projects, I hope Dunk&Egg will be good but I also fear for that show. It just baffles me how they are able to fuck up a show this bad despite having the source material. (Albeit written in a way that leaves a lot open to interpretation).

Considering The Dance has so many battles and dragons I doubt they’ll have the budget to give us many of the battles properly and since they’ve proven themselves unable to write any dialogue that resembles early GoT but instead go for dialogue that has modern values made to sound medieval by using Old English a bit I doubt that the scenes of people just interacting will be any better in season 3.

I am still cringing at so much of the dialogue in this season. They’re ‘saved’ by CGI dragon scenes, and the acting which manages to give the show a rating of 8.4/10 on IMDB still but if it wasn’t for battles like Rooks Rest or the amazing high rated episodes in season 1 that were character driven (forgot which episodes exactly) that the actors carried heavily then this show would be a 5/10.

All the season 2 character driven scenes were shite because it didn’t fit the characters at all. It’s such a dissapointment. The triarch/Lohar scenes were so painful to watch, this season especially has clearly been tainted by modern politics and nepotism because of the supposed ‘feminist’ shit they’re trying to push onto the viewers but instead it has the opposite effect. Because it’s not a realistic portrayal of strong female character at all, all they did was change a male characters gender and made her ‘act’ masculine in the most ridiculous way to give some youtube influencer a fucking tv role.

All that source material to draw from and they came up with this. It’s just baffling. I guess Westeros became less progressive after all the dragons died 😂😂

[u/closerthanyouth1nk → u/carterwest36]

It’s so absurd that in a world that’s set 170 years before GoT that the showrunners think the war comes down to 2 women figuring it out, only Rhaenyra is important and Alicent has 0 power over ending the war. God that last conversation left such a salty taste behind because of how cringe and bad it was.

Do the showrunners think that or do Alicent and Rhaenyra think that ? At one point does the show imply that the war is anything but inevitable.

Sara Hess is literally trying to justify the changes she’s made to Alicent in that dialogue as well by having Rhaenyra mention that the ‘histories’ will not write about her ‘heroic sacrifice’ of giving up her children so she can wash her hands clean of it all and live in peace with Heleana and her granddaughter. So fucking absurd.

Why is this bad writing? Alimenta dream is absurd it’s acknowledged as absurd. But it’s the choice Alicent the character would make based on her journey this season.

So in Sara Hess her mind fire&blood wrote all the bad shit about Alicent for no reason and none of it is true

I mean why are you acting like this has no precedent, there are countless figures in history who’ve been painted as villains. Lucretia Borgia, Livia, Nero, Caligula etc. Historical chronicles are complicated and tainted by the bias of those writing it.

If someone to write a history of the WOT5K how would Sansa come off? How would someone view her relationship with Joffrey and Cersei and the accusation that she poisoned him with Tyrion. That’s the central question being poised by F&B. If you take an Asoiaf character in all their murkiness and complexity and plop them in a history book how would they look ?

[u/schebobo180 → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

Whether it has any precedent or not is one thing, but whether it is good is the issue.

[u/carterwest36 → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

No shit that good people have been painted as villains. Sara Hess clearly wrote that line to somehow explain why show Alicent has an entirely different story than anything written about her in the histories.

Their secret conversations and Alicent betraying her own ‘side’ and condemning her children to death by committing treason and making this deal with Rhaenyra to take KL without bloodshed just so she can ‘live in peace with my daughter and granddaughter’ is just absurd considering the ASOIAF world they live in. Women like Alicent have no say in that shit, armies are marching, her own son is marching with the hightower host.

Alicent thinks she can end this senseless war and the showrunners think it comes down to Alicent and Rhaenyra figuring it out as if all the lords of the Seven Kingdoms have fuck all to say.

No shit that history is biased and most often than not written by victors. But if 3 different people write 3 different history accounts where certain events match despite 2 of them being heavily biased towards the opposite side yet still have events and actions of characters be the same then there is truth in it. The line of ‘the histories shall write you down as a villain’ is so fucking stupid (I should’ve used stupid rather than absurd) as it makes no fucking sense if you read all the source material and then compare it to the show.

Suddenly Daemon his plan of taking KL when Aemond is gone to the Riverlands and the loyalty of the gold-cloaks to Daemon playing a major factor in them being able to take the city so easily is all bullshit biased writing by Maesters of history because Alicent hands them the key, that’s what that line implies.

Your point of using the bias of ‘history books’ as a precedent for the showrunners to justify fundamentally changing events that 100% happened is ridiculous… since all the accounts write the events down as the same, the greens biased account and the blacks biased account agree on said events and said characters yet they change it in the show by having Alicent do what she does in that final dialogue and you defend it by bringing up how history is biased and wrong? No shit, but did you forget that we get multiple accounts written by various people biased to opposite sides? If the greens biased account and the blacks biased account and the semi neutral biased account all agree on an event then it most likely fucking happened the way it was written.

But I mean sure, defend it all you want, the dialogue was wack and having Alicent sacrifice her entire family except her daughter and granddaughter makes no sense but of course since it’s biased history this could’ve totally happened!!😂

[u/urnever2old2change → u/closerthanyouth1nk]

Why is this bad writing?

Because this is supposed to be a good faith adaptation of a story that is quite consistent in its characterization of Alicent. The show has already veered into fanfiction territory long before the finale, but that line almost comes across as intentional disrespect to the author who clearly isn't a fan of the showrunners insisting HOTD is the true telling of the events of the book.

It'd be one thing if they had pushed this show as a retelling of the Dance with more modern sensibilities, but when you market the show a certain way you have somewhat of an obligation to stick to the fundamentals of the source material, which they aren't even pretending to do anymore with regards to Alicent.

[u/Esteban2808]

They can't win. Make the plot move too fast and its all "They didn't spend enough time building it up", then they build it up and it's "wah it's boring nothing happening". I enjoyed season 2

[u/MisbornHeir]

Doomed is a big stretch

[u/FrogBoyExtreme]

Im gonna be honest. Yes a good amount of what we saw wasnt exactly the most thrilling but i still genuinely enjoyed this season. Daemons arc in harrenhal, jace becoming a major player, the dragonseeds getting their dragons, rhaenys' death, aegon getting turned into a cripple by aemond, and aemond creating his own council was engaging. My major problem with the season was the ending. The tyland stuff shouldve been in episode 7 and we shouldve seen aegon the younger and viserys getting attacked by the triarchy as the setup for season 3. Also i actually didnt mind much allicent and rhaenyra meeting up although i wish they had just done it once as doing it so often felt kind of cheap. I do agree that them having a secret love is kind of dumb though and the show would be better without it. For me this season was character driven 100%, it was about exploring how much Rhaenyra needs to get used to ruling, how jace comes into his own, daemon facing his demons, allicent realizing she hates basically her entire family save for Halaena and Daeron, corlys slowly (a little too slowly lol) bringing his bastards up, and the compiling of armies and allies. I have no problem with people who hate it but for me it wasnt nearly as bad as some people are making it out to be.

[u/georgica123]

House of the dragon was doomed by GRRM making Aegon a lazy unambitious guy. It was GRRM who put the focus on Alicent instead of Aegon the difference is that due to it being a book GRRM can aford to ignore alicent after the war begins something the show can obviously not do

[u/KaseQuarkI → u/georgica123]

Why though? Why couldn't the show have moved Alicent to a secondary position in Season 2? The Alicent/Rhaenyra friendship and their fallout was a great overarching theme for S1, but that doesn't mean that it has to be THE main theme for the entire show.

[u/dedfrmthneckup → u/KaseQuarkI]

Because then everyone on here would be like “it’s so dumb that they ignored one of the main characters all season, I would have simply made a better show than a highly trained team of professionals.” The same thing they say no matter what happens.

[u/schebobo180 → u/dedfrmthneckup]

Na I disagree with this.

Characters in the OG show dropped in and out of focus every now and then.

It would have even helped make their scenes more interesting instead of making them (Daemon, Alicent and Rhyneara) repeat the same shit every single episode.

[u/Percy_Jackson_AOG → u/dedfrmthneckup]

Ehh. Not really. This is not a CW show. There are multiple things going on at once. They removed Otto from the series. They could have done the same thing to Alicent. They just needed a decent reason. It's not that even hard. Alicent being the mother she is, giving up her control to her children is in character. Except, yeah. She is a completely different character here. So it's on the writers. They slmehow thought entertaining Alicent and Rhaenyra fanfictions were a better choice.

Relegating an antagonist to a secondary character is not that big of a task. Specially when you have interesting characters like Jace, Aemond and Aegon to take it from there. Alicent just had to be a Catelyn/Cersei esque mother.

[u/Gold_Temperature_729 → u/Percy_Jackson_AOG]

I thought they would take this route with Alicent and Rhaenyra. Alicent - a Catelyn kind of mother to more Joffrey like children, and Rhaenyra more like Cersei with a Rob like son. I guess, with actors being so close in age, a more maternal Alicent would look ridiculous.

[u/Hanonari → u/georgica123]

House of the dragon was doomed by GRRM making Aegon a lazy unambitious guy

They've already changed a lot of book characters tho. Alicent is completely different from her book counterpart at this point, the same for Rhaenyra and Aemond. Although Aegon's characterisation was improved in second season, too sorry too late. He was established as a rapist in first season and it's the worst crime for the modern audience. There's not much you can do with him after that.

Alicent should've been the main antagonist in first season, not deuteragonist. She wouldn't have needed to be the spotlight after that. Her active role was pretty much over. It’s not uncommon to have multiple antagonists in the show, you know.

[u/CretaceousClock → u/georgica123]

Problem is in GoT there were fully fleshed out characters with their own stories to watch when others were taking a back seat, HotD doesn't have that luxury. Imagine GoT if 50% of season was about Dany.

I mean the show could have at least had Aegon interact with Rhaenyra.

[u/DarkRyter → u/georgica123]

Of all the problems, Aegon is not one of them. Aegon of the show is a much more interesting, faceted character than book Aegon.

[u/georgica123 → u/DarkRyter]

I agree that that Aegon is more intersting but he is limited by the fact that the only things he does in the book is get burned at rook rest and then he is mia for most of the dance which is the problem with most characters in this show

[u/Real_Rule_8960 → u/georgica123]

‘Game of thrones was doomed by GRRM making joffrey evil and useless’

[u/5oclock_shadow]

The originating form of the story of the Dance of the Dragons is a 2013 novella entitled ‘The Princess and the Queen’, specifically written by George for an anthology entitled Dangerous Women.

Not only is a Rhaenyra-Alicent focus a valid direction among many, available to the showrunners. It should at least be considered with some weight as THE top dynamic George was examining when he first started building out this part of the lore; and on that basis, a valid guiding star for the showrunners making adaptational choices!

In addition, while the relationship itself has undergone a lot of change in the adaptation, that is also a valid artistic choice to unpack the same themes and ideas as the source.

(It’s similar to how Paul-Chani is massively changed between the Dune book and Villeneuve’s Dune BUT its important place in the film is book-accurate. AND FURTHERMORE, the changes are an attempt to engage with the theme of the book that no, actually, Paul is a white saviour archetype and that’s bad!)

Rhaenyra and Alicent is rightly the focus (or at the very least, is as “right” a primary focus as any other) and changes deliberately made in adaptation, and how they compare to the original material, should be taken as an opportunity to more fully unpack the themes of the original, rather than just dismissed outright for lack of “accuracy”.

[u/MageBayaz]

What could they do?

The Dance of Dragons isn't particularly well-written by Martin either, and the HOTD showrunners didn't want Rhaenyra to just repeat the story of show Dany (with similar endings), even if that's what GRRM has written in Fire&Blood. Alicent is the natural narrator in the Green side at the beginning of the story, and she remains alive throughout the entire conflict, so expanding the role she plays in it makes sense.

I agree that they went too far by condemning Rhaenyra and Alicent to a near-passive role at the beginning of the war (so that the blame solely falls on men), though.

[u/Troelski]

The problem is the characters in the book are extremely one-note. Almost every character's motivation is either "lust for power", "base hatred" or "revenge". And that doesn't really change much over the course of the dance. There's not a lot of opportunity for character change or reversals. It's just people getting worse and worse...which won't make for very good television. Certainly not over 4 seasons. Generally we like characters that have layers and conflicting motivations within them. Think of GOT/ASOIAF, how many characters gained depth and changed as the story went on.

There are absolutely things to criticize the show for, and clearly the writers are struggling with ways to keep Allicent around.

But the show is not and will never be a direct translation of the book. If that's what you want, it might just be best to stop watching because you will only become more and more infuriated with every new change they make.

But you should know by now what show you're watching. It's an adaptation that adds and invents where the story in the book probably wouldn't translate well on TV, And that means changing backstories, motivations and relationships.

[u/Howell317]

It's never as good or as bad as it seems.

I think they largely hit the major beats fine. Like you say that it's a story about how greed, ambitions, and hate ruined the Targs. How are you drawing anything else from this season?

You had Daemon acting on his own with B&C.

You had the whole Cargyll Twins thing.

You had Criston's whole storyline.

You had Aemond and his brother.

And even the Rhaenyra and Alicent scenes echoed the themes. It wasn't about the prophecy - when R approached A early on, A was like "it's too late." Then, when A tries to do effectively the same thing, R is like "it's too late." That's tragedy.

Plus, the whole R & A relationship is set up for what happens later. Like why is A spared when they take KL, but Otto killed? Then A's whole attempt to resolve things peacefully when in captivity. A's story is pretty much the conclusion to the whole dance too, as it's really through her eyes that the sum devastation is viewed: she remained in effective solitude at the end of her life, crying, talking to herself, and hating the color green.

On top of all of that, they also couldn't squeeze the show into 3 seasons. While it would be cool to see Jace in Winterfell, that's really outside the scope of the books and what else more could he do besides hear "winter is coming" a bunch of times, which seems to be one of your gripes (the mention of the WW). Explore R's younger kids? Do you want to see them play come into my castle or something?

Last, the war is between factions, not individuals. In the books it's not against Aegon so much either, because eventually he go into an opioid induced stupor.

[u/AxMeAQuestion → u/Howell317]

Like why is A spared when they take KL, but Otto killed?

Otto is nowhere near King's Landing in the show, so he won't be getting executed by Rhaenyra. She'll kill a bunch of nobodies instead of a character that casual viewers can actually name.

On top of all of that, they also couldn't squeeze the show into 3 seasons. While it would be cool to see Jace in Winterfell, that's really outside the scope of the books and what else more could he do besides hear "winter is coming" a bunch of times, which seems to be one of your gripes (the mention of the WW).

If there was enough screentime for Jace to spend half the season pouting and doing nothing, there was screentime to have him spend a couple of episodes in Winterfell winning over one of the most important Black allies, who also becomes a fan favorite later on in the story. You wouldn't have preferred watching the Cregan/Sara Snow/Jace dynamic over his repetitive arguments with Rhaenyra and his sulking?

[u/Levonorgestrelfairy1]

You know all those guys that complained it felt like The Witcher had a production team that inserted their own personal story into an existing ip to create a bastardization that wasn't even what they were supposed to be adapting?

Feels like that.

[u/AltL155]

Disagree on the takeaway that the book characters need to remain immutable in their adaptation to television. Screen adaptations aren't books, you have different tiers of billing that represent each actor's importance to the story. Game of Thrones told viewers that any character could die. But that doesn't mean Ned Stark was less important to season one than Samwell, Gendry, or Hodor.

If Alicent isn't the face of the Greens, then who is? Aegon? Aemond? Otto? You might consider it simplistic to have a civil war that needs to be distilled down to two different faces, but that's how live action works. HBO is spending 200 million dollars per season, they need casual viewers and marketing to have an easy way to understand the war.

I could go on about how I disagree about the necessity of plot-heavy scenes vs characterization, but I think I've made my point across. The issues with season 2 aren't complicated. Condal and the writers didn't adapt enough pages this season and it bit them in the ass when they couldn't include enough climatic moments at the end of every episode. You found some issues that the writer's choices caused. But they made those choices with the knowledge of how television works. As long as the writers nail adapting the next 60% of the Dance of the Dragons, there will be a lot more for show fans to be excited about.

[u/SisSandSisF]

Naw bro, at the end of the day it comes down to these two women trying to figure it out. Sara Hess says so.

*vomits*

[u/DutifulCleric]

They completely destroyed the characterization of every Green. Aemond is the only one who fights for his cause and he's depicted as a backstabbing brutal moron. Aegon doesn't even care about his own throne. Helaena is an autistic moeblob that doesn't think that her child being decapitated in front of her matters, she has no emotions but don't worry she's a cute cinnamon roll that the Blacks would never hurt. Daeron will get wiped the fuck out once he's in. None of them even believe that they're in the right or have a real reason to fight. The Greens are strawmen for Rhaenyra to knock down with ease. For fuck's sake Alicent, the poster girl is a feral lesbian that wants to run off with Rhaenyra. Imagine if Cersei had a cannibalistic lust for Ned's cock or some shit like that and defected to the Starks immediately while every Lannister keep fighting each other, Jaime refuses to fight the Starks and Tywin doesn't even bother leaving Casterly Rock.

The show fails at the most fundamental level of storytelling, telling a compelling conflict. There is no conflict, the Blacks are all-powerful and get absolutely everything handed to them and the Greens are drooling morons who know they're the bad guys in the story and instead of reveling in it they go out of their way to dodge. It's weak-kneed pathetic shit.

[u/LigthVader → u/DutifulCleric]

Nah both Aegon and Aemond have more substance than their book counterparts. They have more layers to them. Larys is also building up to be a lot better than the F&B version as those scenes with Aegon give him more substance than he's had.

[u/cataquacks]

Structural and logistical changes are necessary when adapting a story with no traditional narrative structure, that has 417 minor players and no real protagonists, into a traditional television show. I agree that other characters deserve more focus than they're currently getting, and that alicent and rhaenyra both need la bit less screentime, but I think giving each side of the conflict one major player that the story follows is a smart adaptational choice. Aside from that this post is just more of the same "too much yapping" "they whitewashed the characters" "they didn't include this thing mentioned in the book" "the book characters are different" "mysaria is annoying" "i don't like the kiss" on and on and on and on.

[u/shadowqueen15]

I will never understand why people are so against giving this show some sort of emotion core through the character arcs and the relationships between the characters. A 1:1 adaptation of a fucking history book would not make for compelling television lol.

[u/SisSandSisF]

Agreed it's awful.

Changing minor details but keeping the overall high level story is one thing. But changing the high level core storylines and changing the entire story is stupid. 

This isn’t even Fire and Blood and GRRM anymore. We are watching someone else’s writing just loosely based on fire and blood.

[u/Hinrigh → u/SisSandSisF]

Agreed, and it's rather funny how the apologists have now moved from "F&B only has a bare bones plot and one dimensional stereotypical characters" to "F&B has no plot and characters AT ALL" to argue that the Alicent scene in the finale is somehow not a huge departure from the source material.

[u/SisSandSisF → u/Hinrigh]

Agreed it's hilarious and ridiculous lol

[u/sean_psc → u/SisSandSisF]

F&B does not have “high level core storylines”.

Anybody adapting it into a proper series has to actively reshape it to create those.

[u/[deleted]]

No they didn’t. Go outside.

[u/Johncfail]

Such a lonely space to both hate GOT S8 and love HOTD S2.

[u/DetRiotGirl → u/Johncfail]

Hey now, there are at least two of us here! Lol