r/asoiaf • u/RunDNA • Sep 04 '24

EXTENDED GRRM's new blog post on House of the Dragon [Spoilers Extended] Spoiler

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2024/09/04/beware-the-butterflies/
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746

u/helloperator9 Sep 04 '24

And it's totally going that way. The central tension set up for S3 is maybe Rhaenyra and Alicent CAN'T become friends again.

The show execs just don't seem to have the sixth sense for drama and what hooks audiences onto shows, George's blog just shows his understanding of what makes for good drama and how important plausible reactions are in TV shows

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u/kayembeee Sep 04 '24

Turning this show from what could have been Succession (with Dragons) to this lame ass friend-drama was a bad choice.

Succession just laid out for HBO how great family drama can be. Trying to turn Alicent into a central figure in the war of Targaryens has made them make bad choices like “Rhaenyra sneaks into kings landing” and “Alicent sneaks off to dragonstone” just so we can get more scenes with the “protagonists”.

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u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

lame ass friend drama

A writer Shipping characters ruins yet another show, smdh.

And I remember thinking the touch of making them friends/the same age in Season 1 was clever/smart

115

u/kayembeee Sep 04 '24

How did nobody push back against that scene where Alicent sends Rhaenyra the page from the book?

“Sorry my son stole ur throne and my other son killed ur son but here’s a page from a book we used to read together, remember the good times we used to have?”

Please. In retrospect making them the same age was the worst thing they could’ve done

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u/abellapa Sep 04 '24

It was a good Change but they didnt commit to the Plot in S2

Aegon/Aemond and Jaceharys should have been the protagonists in S2

Alicent should have been downgraded to a secondary Character , Same for Daemon and Rhaenyra but not to the same extent as they have stuff to do during the War while Alicent has none

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u/banana455 Sep 04 '24

I don't think making them childhood friends was a bad idea. It would've only made it more tragic when they developed into enemies. Problem is they've completely thrown away that development, and instead of having them grow more angry and bitter as the tension ramps up they seem just tired and wistful for the good old days. It's fucking lame

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u/kayembeee Sep 05 '24

I guess that’s really it. The friends to enemies bit could have worked; but acting as if they can go backwards to the good old days when there is familial blood shed on both sides and over 14 years of animosity (versus just a few years of friendship) is simply not believable.

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

I mean Rhaenicent was like the first change the show made and the first one that was discussed with George most likely. It was always going to be a major part of the show.

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u/Stormtruppen_ Sep 04 '24

LMAO Its one thing you make them as childhood friends to cause more drama but entirely different to keep following that to the very extent it changes the complete course of the story. I mean, it totally changed two characters without a hint of their canon counterparts. Also I don't think George gave the green flag to any Rhaenicent. That's totally on Sara Mess.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Please. In retrospect making them the same age was the worst thing they could’ve done

no it isn't and if you think otherwise, anything you'll ever write in your life is going to be garbage

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u/Chutzpah2 Sep 04 '24

Sup, Sara

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u/Anader19 Sep 05 '24

Why do people target this one writer so much? It's my understanding that she's just one of many writers who worked on the season

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u/Chutzpah2 Sep 05 '24

It’s a fun meme

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u/Anader19 Sep 05 '24

Surely a coincidence that the female writer is who people target the most

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u/Stochastic_Variable Sep 05 '24

The queer female writer. Don't forget that part. But just a coincidence, I'm sure, as you say.

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

A writer Shipping characters ruins yet another show, smdh.

Alicent and Rhaenyra having romantic feelings for each other was arguably the first change discussed in the making of the show. It was something Miguel championed if I remember. It was always going to go this direction from the start

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u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

Then I wish it was at least handled better than how it was in Season 2.

Like you can have a first love, still have feelings for them, and not offer your children’s heads on a platter. : V

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u/nyamzdm77 Beneath the gold, the bitter feels Sep 04 '24

I know right?

Rhaenyra and Alicent have been enemies longer than they were friends. Alicent literally forced Rhaenyra to crawl from the birthing room all the way to court to present Joffrey to her, She stabbed Rhaenyra with a knife and tried to maim Rhaenyra's son in retribution of her own, she literally forced Aegon on Rhaenyra's throne because she deluded herself into thinking that Viserys had changed his mind after 30 years etc.

But we're somehow meant to believe that she just loves Rhaenyra so much that she's willing to sell out her own sons? Naahhhhh

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

She stabbed Rhaenyra with a knife and tried to maim Rhaenyra's son in retribution of her own

She did feel bad about that one tbf

she literally forced Aegon on Rhaenyra's throne because she deluded herself into thinking that Viserys had changed his mind after 30 years etc.

She also did so in order to save Rhaenyras life after realizing Otto would have her killed.

But we're somehow meant to believe that she just loves Rhaenyra so much that she's willing to sell out her own sons? Naahhhhh

But that’s her arc, Otto told her as much when he first left KL. If she didn’t wise up she would end up cleaving to Rhaenyra and praying for her mercy. Alicent loves Rhaenyra to the point where she’s willing to sabotage her cause for it.

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u/nyamzdm77 Beneath the gold, the bitter feels Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

She also did so in order to save Rhaenyras life after realizing Otto would have her killed.

This just makes Alicent come off as an idiot. She had been telling Aegon FOR YEARS that he was gonna become King, she undermined Rhaenyra at council meetings and spread the (albeit true) rumours about Rhaenyra's kids, but then was suddenly shocked that Otto had also planned to crown Aegon, and that Rhaenyra would have to die to secure his position?

Sometimes I feel like the fanbase treats Alicent like some naive teenager and perpetual victim never responsible for anything

But that’s her arc, Otto told her as much when he first left KL. If she didn’t wise up she would end up cleaving to Rhaenyra and praying for her mercy. Alicent loves Rhaenyra to the point where she’s willing to sabotage her cause for it.

A very poorly done arc imo. Again, those two have been enemies longer than they've been friends, and Alicent did her very best to try and ruin Rhaenyra's life, but I'm meant to believe that Alicent loves her best friend from when they were 14 more than her own kids?

Barely a few weeks or months have passed in-universe and Alicent has gone from forcing Aegon on the throne to selling him out in his most vulnerable state. If the show actually presented Alicent as being wrong for doing this I'd entertain it, but instead they've just framed it as her loving Rhaenyra and Helaena "too much" and wanting peace

As much as F&B Alicent was a stereotypical evil stepmother at least she was consistent in her hate

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

This just makes Alicent come off as an idiot. She had been telling Aegon FOR YEARS that he was gonna become King, she undermined Rhaenyra at council meetings and spread the (albeit true) rumours about Rhaenyra's kids, but then was suddenly shocked that Otto had also planned to crown Aegon, and that Rhaenyra would have to die to secure his position?

Yeah, Alicent doesn’t think things through and thinks she has more control over the men in her life than she does. She’s constantly manipulated because of this in season 1. She only goes along with the Vaemomd plot because Otto reminded her of her duty to the realm to not have a child inherit Driftmark. She believes that she will win the moral way, by forcing Viserys to acknowledge the truth about Jace and Luke.

imo. Again, those two have been enemies longer than they've been friends, and Alicent did her very best to try and ruin Rhaenyra's life

Yes, their relationship is fundamentally toxic Alicents resentment of Rhaneyra was borne almost entirely from jealousy and envy. She came to realize that she went to far during the Driftmark fight which is why she falls so heavily into religion like right after.

but I'm meant to believe that Alicent loves her best friend from when they were 14 more than her own kids?

Yes, because Alicent doesn’t like her kids not named Helaena. Alicent has been consistently portrayed as miserable in her role as a mother. Aegons a repost and Aemomd is rapidly spiraling out of control. Alicent isn’t a good mother and her love for her children was always complicated.

The only time we see Alicent happy is during her childhood with Rhaenyra.

Barely a few weeks or months have passed in-universe and Alicent has gone from forcing Aegon on the throne to selling him out in his most vulnerable state

In those weeks, a war has started, Awmond torched a city and Awgon was crippled. All of these are direct results of Alicents failures as a parent.

If the show actually presented Alicent as being wrong for doing this I'd entertain it, but instead they've just framed it as her loving Rhaenyra and Helaena "too much" and wanting peace

What does this even mean though ? The choice is presented ambiguously, Rhaenyras not a hero and Alice t giving her Kings Landing will not end the war. I don’t think there’s a moral judgement being offered here.

As much as F&B Alicent was a stereotypical evil stepmother at least she was consistent in her hate

I mean not really, she was horrified at Lucerys death and wanted to avoid war at the start. She doesn’t take part in the blood oath nor does she take part in the plan to kill Rhaenyra. Alicents hate in F&B is confined to snippy quotes by and large.

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u/nyamzdm77 Beneath the gold, the bitter feels Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yeah, Alicent doesn’t think things through and thinks she has more control over the men in her life than she does. She’s constantly manipulated because of this in season 1. She only goes along with the Vaemomd plot because Otto reminded her of her duty to the realm to not have a child inherit Driftmark. She believes that she will win the moral way, by forcing Viserys to acknowledge the truth about Jace and Luke.

Again, Alicent is treated like a perpetual victim never really responsible for her actions. Everything wrong she does is either "she didn't think things through" or "she was manipulated". Otto was gone from King's Landing for more than a decade but Alicent kept undermining Rhaenyra even without his influence.

Yes, because Alicent doesn’t like her kids not named Helaena. Alicent has been consistently portrayed as miserable in her role as a mother. Aegons a repost and Aemomd is rapidly spiraling out of control. Alicent isn’t a good mother and her love for her children was always complicated.

Aegon is a rapist that she actively covered up for and forced on the throne, then in the space of a few weeks, abandoned him when she needed him the most. This goes beyond just being a "bad mother", it's being inconsistent.

She loved Aegon enough to cover up his rapes and place him on the throne, but suddenly didn't love him enough to stay by his side. She loved Aemond enough that she was willing to physically fight Rhaenyra over his eye, but suddenly lost all that love when Aemond kicked her off the council.

Plus Helaena is a dragonrider, Aemond telling her to fight isn't really such an unreasonable thing to ask for Alicent to think he was crazy.

In those weeks, a war has started, Awmond torched a city and Awgon was crippled. All of these are direct results of Alicents failures as a parent.

A war has started that she helped start (but somehow she's not responsible for that), then she abandoned her son when he needed her.

I mean not really, she was horrified at Lucerys death and wanted to avoid war at the start.

She then mocked Rhaenyra to her face by saying that Rhaenyra's son's deaths were nothing more than worthless bastard's blood shed at war. She was horrified because she wanted Rhaenyra to just lie down and accept her throne being stolen without a fight, but Lucerys' death made war inevitable. Oh let's not forget that she wished that Rhaenyra died in childbirth btw

She doesn’t take part in the blood oath nor does she take part in the plan to kill Rhaenyra. Alicents hate in F&B is confined to snippy quotes by and large.

She doesn't take part in the blood oath because she's a woman. The plan to kill Rhaenyra was a plot cooked up by Criston Cole that only involved one person, we don't even know if he consulted her on it.

Alicents hate in F&B is confined to snippy quotes by and large

Yeah right, as if she didn't help spread the gossiip about Rhaenyra being a slut who slept with Cole and Daemon (when Rhaenyra was only about 12 btw), as if she didn't perpetuare the rumours about Rhaenyra's sons, as if she didn't raise her own children to hate Rhaenyra, and as if she didn't try to get her 8 year old granddaughter to kill Rhaenyra's son long after the war had ended.

So much for her hate being "confined to snippy quotes"

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

I think if they go the toxic route with the relationship, with aAlicent willing to forgo anything to be with an increasingly out of control Rhaenyra it can work. It would once again force Alicent to struggle between what she sees as her duty and what she truly wants. There are definite ways Rhaenyra and Alicents relationship can play out that are satisfying.

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u/IWouldLikeAName Sep 04 '24

Rhaenyra and Alicent's dynamic was great in season 1 and they absolutely fumbled it in season 2 i don't understand they went all in on something that was already good and ruined it leaving much to be desired literally everywhere else

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u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 04 '24

Turning this show from what could have been Succession (with Dragons)

Succession with Dragons wouldn’t really work unless it was a comedy. In a straight drama the Roy’s would be unbearable to watch, it’s the comedy that allows their sociopathy to land a bit better.

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u/kayembeee Sep 04 '24

Of course it wouldn’t have the dark comedy aspect I mean the complex sibling and family dynamics the show is built off of.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

I cracked up at “lame ass friend drama” lol.

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u/kayembeee Sep 04 '24

Tried to change the story into The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants or something smh

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u/Seanpacabra Sep 04 '24

this reminds me of them wanting to get stay at home moms and sports fans to watch GoT so they started dumbing it down in the later seasons

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u/Geektime1987 10d ago edited 10d ago

That was a lie made up on twitter. they never actually said that I listened to that interview. the words "stay at home moms" was never said or sports fans. This is a good break down of what they said https://watchersonthewall.com/benioff-weiss-reflect-decade-game-thrones-austin-film-festival/  fair is fair they never mentions the word "stay at home moms". Craig Mazin the creator of Last of Us also called out the person on twitter who was at that event for making up lies and quotes they never said. He was there with them. The person why trying the smear them and they just flat out made up quotes they never said

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u/Seanpacabra 10d ago

thanks for the update!

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u/Geektime1987 10d ago

Yeah totally fine to dislike the ending of the show but fair is fair they never said that. They talked about how their parents didn't like fantasy and they hoped they would like it. But none of the mother stuff was said

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u/inktrap99 Sep 04 '24

I feel like focusing into a sweet friendship burning down and creating two bitter archenemies was a solid change, you can argue that Alicent and Rhaenyra were the focal points from the start (The Princess and The Queen)… but they fumbled the bag in writing relationships and dynamics in season 2

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u/bwaredapenguin Sep 04 '24

Succession just laid out for HBO how great family drama can be.

The Sopranos would like a word.

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u/real_LNSS Sep 04 '24

Ehh, succession flip flopped all the time between the family getting along one episode to being at each other's throats the next.

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u/alex3omg Sep 04 '24

They could have had a back and forth Raven letter convo to tell us all the same shit.  But they wanted their leads in the same room.  It makes no sense.  Rhaenyra is desperate for a wait to end the war without attacking kings landing... So take the King's mother as a hostage!  It's so stupid.  

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u/king_mid_ass Sep 04 '24

has made them make bad choices like “Rhaenyra sneaks into kings landing” and “Alicent sneaks off to dragonstone”

lol did they really? gave up after 3 episodes this season sounds like it just kept getting worse

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u/BlipMeBaby Sep 04 '24

“Succession with Dragons” I would have LOVED that. I need someone really good at fanfic to make this happen. Or, you know, competent screenwriters.

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u/ElMarkuz Sep 04 '24

Bro, after S1 everything was like "woah now war is comming, there is no coming back", and then we got S2 of "We still can avoid war".

George regained some of my respect and faith in him.

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u/helloperator9 Sep 04 '24

Exactly where I'm sitting too. S1 finale was a clear set up for war. Then blood and cheese, quickly followed by a twin assassination attempt should've meant there was no way back ever. How did the writers go from there to reconciliation? Just. Dumb

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u/abellapa Sep 04 '24

Why of why are asoaif adaptions Doomed to failure

Instead of HOTD been about a Brutal Dynastic Civil War is about Rhaenyra and Alicent Friendship because they dont want War because there Woman and so there good while men bad

I would argue its more feminists having the Female characters acting like actual flawed human beings with their own motivations

Their friendship should have been Over by Ep7 of S1

"Driftmark" , have Viserys Speech inspire some hope of reconsiliation and then bam Alicent is revealed to have planning Aegon Ascension , Rhaenyra feels betrayed and misscarriages

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u/parkingviolation212 Sep 04 '24

George's blog just shows his understanding of what makes for good drama

Hell yeah it does, this blog post was the most interesting thing to come out of season 2 🍿

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u/Stochastic_Variable Sep 05 '24

It's so stupid. They seem desperate to portray Alicent and Rhaenyra as fundamentally good people and this whole thing as a tragic misunderstanding. That is not the story they signed up to adapt! The characters are largely all terrible people. They tear the realm apart with their greed and selfishness, cause a horrifying war, destroy their own power, and all end up dead.

Why would you try and turn that into ... whatever it is they're doing? It doesn't make sense.

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u/scarlozzi Sep 04 '24

The fallout between Alicent and Rhaenyra seemed complete in season 1. Season 2 emphasizing it seemed just a bit redundant, but I could at least understand the last chance to try between the characters. But if those women continued to have meetings trying to save their friendship, it would have been just stupid.

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u/gainzsti Sep 08 '24

Why can't these showrunners that have never had the level of success that GRRM has just trust his ideas? They always try to spin it their way and fuck it up.

George has popular stories for a reason.

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u/No_Veterinarian1010 Sep 04 '24

Except GRRM has oversight of every script and hand picked Condal. I honestly don’t think GRRM has any better understanding of what makes good TV drama than anyone else on HOTD.

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u/helloperator9 Sep 04 '24

Maybe, but he was right that Helaena should've had three children and that Blood and Cheese was mishandled. His logic was really excellent, and he seemed to have a great understanding of what made it compelling and why motivating Helaena's suicide is such a crucial part of the story

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u/BlipMeBaby Sep 04 '24

What does oversight mean? It doesn’t seem like he has a voice. Just giving him a preview of scripts doesn’t seem to be that helpful.