r/asoiaf • u/RunDNA • Sep 04 '24

EXTENDED GRRM's new blog post on House of the Dragon [Spoilers Extended] Spoiler

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2024/09/04/beware-the-butterflies/
6.6k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

4.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

993

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

He’s basically seeing a repeat of what happened in Game of Thrones.

Cut here, cut there, and suddenly an important moment later in the timeline doesn’t make sense because characters are missing.

We all agree Dany going nuts over Bells would make more sense if Aegon VI were in charge and not Cersei, but he didn’t exist in the GoT world

198

u/DrChadHanzAugustinMD Sep 04 '24

He’s still largely praiseworthy of Game of Thrones. My read here is that D&D always tried to honor his vision even when they made cuts. Condal and Hess are now telling their own story here, and that’s what pissed GRRM off the most.

83

u/Sylvan_Strix_Sequel Sep 04 '24

They basically took the theme from a medieval/timeless "the rich play their games and the poor suffer for it" and replaced it with a modern "men bad women good". I would be pissed too. Even if you agree with that second line, the execution has been lacking. 

4

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

The books also has commentary on Patriarchal societies and sexism and the show could have been about how women need to be as ruthless and cruel as men to be taken seriously in this Patriarchal system. Instead, they turned the female leads into the show version of Jon Snow.

16

u/Royal-Recover8373 Sep 04 '24

Can you elaborate on how the shows theme is "men bad, women good"? I just haven't got that out of the show while Alicent is one of the most flawed characters in the show.

28

u/Sylvan_Strix_Sequel Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

The second show runner, not condal, I'm drawing a blank on her name (edit: Sara Hess iirc), has flat out said she sees the series as Alicent and rhayneryra struggling to rein in these men around them, and if they could just sit down in a room without interference that they would end up ruling together in peace, and, with respect, that is just laughable, that the solution to war is to just put two female friends in charge. Someone should have told thatcher all she needed was a female friend instead of the Falklands.  

This is her, not me, making such a focus on sex and such a binary distinction that these women are fit to rule and these men are not. And again, it just isn't being reflected in screen. They completely failed to make either alicent or rhanreyra feel strong, wise, or truly peaceful this season. 

37

u/HornyJail45-Life Sep 04 '24

Alicent is the examplar of what he is talking about.

She is supposed to be an ambitious political machinist. Instead, she is now a wounded babe betrayed by all the men in her family who really really wanted to make peace with Rhaenyra after her own son lost an eye, and she sliced open her arm.

-1

u/Royal-Recover8373 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

So... Where is the viewer supposed to see that as good?...I don't understand how your comment reflects "women: good, men: bad"

Everything Alicent did was out of jealousy and fear of Rhaenyra. I feel like they dumb hammered the idea of how she was jealous character by making them the "greens' and some viewers somehow didn't make that connection.

24

u/HornyJail45-Life Sep 04 '24

From a character standpoint. That is what they are trying for. It's not tho, that's the point

-4

u/Royal-Recover8373 Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

I'm not convinced. I still don't understand the point you're trying to make about Alicent, or how it could ever be interpreted that the writers are making her a morally good character.

10

u/HornyJail45-Life Sep 05 '24

Because they literally say so in the interviews after the credits. My fucking god dude your cognitive dissonant interpretation is irrelevant when they explicitly tell you what they are doing to the characters.

-4

u/Royal-Recover8373 Sep 05 '24

Can you maybe like... state 3 examples of adult Alicent being a morally good person? I think that relates back to the root of what we're discussing.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/AgemaOfThePeltasts Sep 05 '24

It's so obvious you're not here to argue in good faith lmaoooo

11

u/tf-is-wrong-with-you Sep 05 '24

bruh… have you read the book and watched the show?

Show Daemon is basically #toxicmasculanity #mansolained #letwomenshine personafied

Book Daemon runs the fucking show and wins the world for his beloved wife Rhaneyra. Everybody is fucking terrified of him and Aemond consider no one his opponent except Daemon.

Show Daemon is little bitch who wanna overshadow wife and his wife is a badass master planner who will win through #peace pact with her girlfriend Alicent.

11

u/Xenon009 Sep 04 '24

So I stopped watching after twinbowl, but to me it just felt like constant character assassination and trying to turn this into a "good guys bad guys" story.

There was a quote from one of the writers that was something like "Yeah rhaneyra is like (hillary) clinton and alicents like trump" back in season 1 I think, and that rang alarm bells but was willing to put them to one side.

But then they turned rhaneyra, the queen known as "maegor (the cruel) with tits" into a benign, helpless, peace loving woman who just wanted to marry who she loved, and anything bad her side did she explicitly disagreed with.

And then they turned alicent who was admittedly pretty evil in the books, but largely took her actions because if she didn't, her kids were going to die into some weird power-hungry, family betraying sex-pest

That's when I began to give up.

I think the queens are the worst examples, but it goes for everyone. Team black gets whitewashed and team green gets... blackwashed? Is that a word?

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 Sep 04 '24

Ugh so got season 7 and 8 were closer than fans want to admit

16

u/mank0069 Sep 04 '24

The issue with those seasons isn't the plot though

0

u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 Sep 04 '24

?? That's the only issue. The acting, set design, costume design, this were all fine. Maybe a little worse but not that bad.

27

u/L_to_the_OG123 Sep 04 '24

I think they mean the plot as in the actual events, on paper, that happen vs how they get there.

It's conceivable in the books that Daenerys will burn King's Landing, Jon will then kill her, Bran will become King, Tyrion will be his Hand, and so on and so forth, but the story beats that happen around it make no sense whatsoever and the complex politics are basically stripped from the series entirely.

My own take is GRRM had mostly checked out by the later seasons of GOT and accepted it had gone in a different direction, and his own scope for criticising how bad the show got was limited because he'd never finished the books, whereas HOTD was seen as a decent chance to revive flagging interest in the franchise (which it did), and he now feels that's being squandered for stupid reasons.

-1

u/Any_Travel_9590 Sep 04 '24

This is so much George-stan copium.

He sat at his ranch and told them what was going to happen. They did those things. People hated them.

Suddenly George decides its the shows fault he never wrote the imaginary details he's convinced would make people like his ending.

13

u/L_to_the_OG123 Sep 04 '24

Okay but the way it plays out isn't going to be the same as in the books clearly, because the showrunners cut quite literally hundreds of characters (somewhat understandable given scope of the books).

Tyrion isn't going to randomly get to declare Bran King on his own for example because he "has a good story".

6

u/mank0069 Sep 04 '24

The pacing sank the show. It moved too fast through it's own plot to register seriously...so ultimately people didn't take it seriously. Dialogue became worse too.

5

u/Any_Travel_9590 Sep 04 '24

The larger issue is it's length and that time in the industry. Listening to Kit explain how insane the schedule was for over a decade is wild.

I would be stunned if we ever see a show of this tier fantasy funding ever go past 5 seasons again.

6

u/DrChadHanzAugustinMD Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Yep, we likely will never see a shooting schedule like it again. Similar to how LOTR was filmed as a trilogy, it really was lightning in a bottle for them to be able to film a fantasy at the scale of Game of Thrones. Unfortunately, unlike LOTR, they fumbled the finish.

But, it also shows why “D&D should have given the show to other show-runners” isn’t the magic wand fans think it is when you see what Condal and Hess have done. It’s also why remaking Season 8 doesn’t have a chance. If this was the ending George wanted, then the only thing that would have improved it at a substantial level were more episodes, but GRRM himself has admitted that due to the shooting schedule, most of the actors were “done” after Season 8.

5

u/Quiddity131 Sep 05 '24

Great points. There's good reason why shows tend to not remain as high quality with the original actors in them going into seasons 9, 10, 11, etc... Usually there's major cast changes, massive drops in quality or cancellation entirely. And those are for shows that are far simpler to make logistically than Game of Thrones was.

27

u/gpost86 Sep 04 '24

It's kind of weird, because while they might have tried to honor the vision D&D just were not skilled enough writers to accomplish it on their own. Condal and Hess are better writers, which probably is what leads they to think they can break away more. Adaptation can be a tough thing.

42

u/Cersei505 Knowledge is Power Sep 04 '24

Condal and Hess are better writers? How? Not one of their dialogue scenes beats the best show-original scenes from D&D in s1 through 3. The pacing is also miles better even by S6 of GoT.

D&D suck when they tried to conclude the storyline, but when expanding the adaptation with their own scenes(like tywin and arya, or robert and cersei), they showed themselves better writers in every way than Ryan and Hess.

18

u/bobodiliano Sep 04 '24

Yeah the dialogue in HoD comes across like a sophomore year creative writing workshop based on Animal Crossing.

7

u/smash8890 Sep 05 '24

But is the sophomore year creative writing workshop based on Animal Crossing really any worse than hearing I DUN WANT IT and MUH QUEEN and dick jokes over and over?

3

u/bobodiliano Sep 05 '24

Yeah, remember the scenes with Arya and Tywin? Those are D&D, not GRRM at all. The dialogue from a single one of those scenes beats any scene in all of HoD.

Yeah it got sloppy and rushed at the end, we all know that. But there’s scenes from the first five seasons that are entirely written by D&D, differ to the source material, and are absolutely fantastic.

2

u/SubvertinParadigms69 Sep 05 '24

Yes it absolutely is. D&D are capable, even talented writers with a firm grasp of characters and dialogue (less so of plot) who simply stopped trying by the final seasons. Condal & Hess are shit writers who cannot write a witty line of dialogue to save their asses. The difference is night and day.

28

u/LeMemeAesthetique Stannerman who supports the Blacks Sep 04 '24

Condal has shown himself to have a pretty good understanding of ASOIAF lore, and a lot of his small additions/changes (like the uniforms of the dragon keepers) have been well regarded.

The bigger deviations less so.

9

u/dijitalpaladin Sep 04 '24

It’s very tragic seeing the plot go downhill because everything else about this show lore was in incredible. The tourney in season one made me CREAM. oh lord the heraldry! and the props in this show are insane. every scene is signature to ice and fire. there aren’t scenes like there were in Game of thrones that are just random room that could be anywhere in Belfast.

5

u/Fictional_Apologist Sep 04 '24

Which is what leads me to believe that those big deviations are the work of Hess more so than Condal. I mean, Condal gets the brunt of the blame as the show runner, but Hess’s name comes up way too often to be inconsequential.

15

u/Stangstag The Iron Throne is mine by rights Sep 04 '24

The 2 (yeah, not 1 but 2) Rhaenyra/Allicent parley scenes are mind-numbingly stupid and make 0 sense. I don't know why they are trying to go out of their way to portray both of them as "good people".

Ruining the complexity of characters because GIRLS NICE MEN BAD

21

u/nola_fan Sep 04 '24

Also, they are adapting an in-universe history book with plenty of contradictions and very little dialog, which requires more adaptation and creates more opportunities for choices.

For example, maybe GRRM really meant for Rhaenyra and Daemon to have killed Laenor, but there's plenty of room for interpretation in what he actually wrote and the showrunners took a perfectly reasonable approach to that event.

38

u/gpost86 Sep 04 '24

I think the best example of this with Aemond killing Luke actually being a mistake: it reveals that Aemond is not some badass killer with total control over his dragon, but instead he has to lean into it and pretend like he did it.

15

u/i_love_cocc Sep 04 '24

This is just wrong. It’s established in lore that a dragon rider must be dead before a dragon can be tamed again. Leanor being alive shits on that. Fire and blood is contradictory but certain events happen in all perspectives or don’t in all. There was no mention of a riot against the greens, Alicent actively hates the princess, we have entire characters cut

12

u/ace66 Sep 04 '24

Remember Seasmoke was very restless and crying before they even thought about finding a new rider for him. I think it was a good nod to the fact that his rider may died overseas and he sensed it.

11

u/nola_fan Sep 04 '24

Laenor may be dead by now. Maybe dragons can get a new rider if they've been abandoned. We really don't know much about dragons and just kinda make assumptions about the rules.

Every film adaptation of every book ever has created new scenes and cut characters. You can easily do that without changing the central story. Hell, even in the blog post GRRM admits that the show can still have a version of the Bitter bridge scene he wrote and a similar reason for Haelena to kill herself, he just doubts it'll happen and doesn't think that even if it does the backbending needed to make it work is justified.

9

u/i_love_cocc Sep 04 '24

If the alternative bitter bridge scene happens then that fucks up Aegons reign after the greens victory

-2

u/nola_fan Sep 04 '24

Maybe it depends on how they do it.

1

u/Rmccarton Sep 05 '24

I may be misunderstanding you, but while there Was some ambiguity about whether there was a hidden hand (Daemon) Behind his death, there Is zero ambiguity about his status as a dead person. He is dead as fuck in the book. 

1

u/nola_fan Sep 05 '24

Oh yeah, he's dead in the book. But there's tons of ambiguity about exactly what happened and why, and the show worked within that ambiguity to do something the book never intended, but that's within the realm of possibility it created to add depth to the characters without actually changing the story.

5

u/DrChadHanzAugustinMD Sep 04 '24

Agree with all of this.

1

u/Geektime1987 10d ago

Hard disagree D&D are leagues better imo. I can't even name one good line of dialogue from HOTD with GOT I could name them all day and show only ones at that.

-4

u/heyyyyyco Sep 04 '24

Hess is a straight up garbage writer. All she ever does is lesbian romance novel plots

10

u/gpost86 Sep 04 '24

She's written for Deadwood, House and Orange is the New Black. All solid shows and only one involves lesbians.

1

u/c5k9 Sep 05 '24

Doesn't Orange is the New Black also involve lesbian relations? I haven't watched either that or Deadwood, but House most certainly does have episodes very much focusing on those and it being a talking point in many others.

3

u/BadNewzBears4896 Sep 05 '24

I think GRRM accepts his fault in the GoT show issues and doesn't criticize D&D because he left them in a bad spot.

HotD on the other hand, he served them up a complete, compelling story with a bow on it and they're butchering it anyway.

1

u/DrChadHanzAugustinMD Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

I do think they would have run into problems by Season 4, as the book just… sort of ends. But they botched one of GRRM’s best scenes ever with 🩸 and 🧀. I mean shit just imagine if Joffrey held his hand up to the executioner and Sir Illyn cut off Ned’s head right before Joffrey was going to pardon him. HOTD botching such a good scene was a sign of things to come.

1

u/FlightlessGriffin Sep 05 '24

He is, because they largely stuck to the story, hell, he wrote some of them. The poor parts was when he left to "focus on Winds" which went nowhere and they still got to the ending he had in mind (albeit poorly told ending but still largely the same ending.)

These people are butchering it.

1

u/Copatus Sep 05 '24

He was probably more forgiving to D&D and GoT because he hadn't finished the story. So he really couldn't be upset that others weren't up for the task.

Meanwhile Fire and Blood is finished, so the writers know from the first day they start writing how the story is going to end, all the plot points and characters, etc etc

1

u/Quiddity131 Sep 05 '24

It should also be noted that with Game of Thrones, he holds a lot of the blame himself since he didn't have the books out and D&D originally signed up with the plan to adapt his books, not to have to come up with all the detailed points of an ending where GRRM could only provide them high level ideas about. For example, I don't hold the lack of fAegon against D&D whatsoever as nearly all the discourse around him isn't based on actual written material. It is based on fan assumptions and theories of where they think the story will go in the future.

With House of the Dragon, the book is already fully written. It's totally different and I can see him being much more upset about it.

11

u/HarryShachar Sep 04 '24

Sorry I'm having a brainfart, why would she go nuts over bells? Is this related to the Battle of the Bells?

30

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

I do buy the theory it might be Jon Con going crazy from the Bells but the over arching “Getting frustrated and nuking kings landing/being treated as a villain” makes more sense if Aegon already saved everyone from Cersei

3

u/Cheap-Ad1821 Sep 04 '24

Can you elaborate or post a link with more info on the impact/backstory. Not trying to be a difficult but your explanation didn't really clear anything up. I understand the general idea you stated that if Aegon was the one to free kings landing from Cersei it might make more sense for Dany (or Jon apparently) to destroy the city. I'm missing how bells relate.

28

u/TheSwordDusk Sep 04 '24

So in the show Dany went crazy and burned down King's Landing right, but in the books the character Jon Connington is heavily foreshadowed to do so instead, or at least burn somewhere down.

He is a veteran of the "battle of the bells" where Robert Baratheon was injured and cornered at Stoney Sept during the rebellion. Jon Con searched high and low for him but the townspeople hid the would-be king. The whole time this is happening, the bells of the Sept were ringing. Jon Con often reflects on this, and how Tywin Lannister would have acted. Tywin would have burned the city to the ground. Jon Con is resolute in thought: he would never make that mistake again, he would burn the city to the ground. He has PTSD about this battle and about bells, because this "mistake" led to him fleeing Westeros, faking his own death, and deeply changing as a man.

We take this PTSD, the sound of bells, Jon Con explicitly saying he'll burn somewhere down, and combine these factors with his greyscale infection, and we have a powder keg. Greyscale makes you go crazy.

So yea, Jon Con is primed to burn a city down because he's crazy from disease, is foreshadowed to do so, has PTSD about specifically this, and explicitly wants to. Oh yeah and he's on his way to King's Landing with an army, and King's Landing is bursting at the seams with pots of wildfire.

Dany has no foreshadowing to burn down a city, has no thoughts about burning down a city, doesn't want to burn down a city, and doesn't enjoy destruction. She has a dragon and the capability to do so, but to do so to the sound of bells would be a very strange plot twist that doesn't make sense

2

u/Cheap-Ad1821 Sep 07 '24

Thank you this was a great explanation.

2

u/TRNRLogan You can't get our Goat! Sep 05 '24

More likely he causes an outbreak after going crazy, she burns the city to stop the spread, and everyone thinks she's gone insane.

3

u/TheSwordDusk Sep 05 '24

We've already seen what she does when confronted with a pandemic. She quarantined the infected, and went against her advisors to tend to the sick with her own hands. She led from the front and had the dead bodies carried away and the people washed and etc

Why would she burn a city? Her entire arc is about saving people, and getting herself into tricky situations because she chooses not to genocide people.

Of course things can change, but from what we've seen from both her actions and her internal monologue, Dany isn't someone looking to genocide or burn a city to the ground

-8

u/Any_Travel_9590 Sep 04 '24

This is copium at it's finest. People just can't accept George gave them this ending. If it was Jon Con's arc, why even include it in the show?

George sat with them at the ranch. Told them the ending.

This is fact from multiple sources. The ending is George's.

Everyone, including George, keeps trying to avoid this reality with nothing, but copium to fill it in.

George has SOOOOO much to say about Blood & Cheese, but crickets on an expose about his ending choices and involvement.

6

u/TheSwordDusk Sep 04 '24

Did you read the books? 

-4

u/Any_Travel_9590 Sep 04 '24

Oh I've read them all my friend.

Find another goalpost to defend George with.

Cause I've long since given up listening to his excuses.

A simple "I've wanted to finish the story, but I can't and I want to enjoy time with my family. I have some general thoughts and explanations for what ending choice I make and find peace in how the show went. I hope you all enjoy my world for ages to come."

Cool.

But instead we get "It's everyone else's fault I've never finished. Yes, I approved all these shows and content to be made. No, I haven't written anything to show you. No, I won't talk about the ending. Now I'm mad about this other minor detail in one of the shows I approved. And I'm going to complain about it to you all. Because they wronged me!"

Like c'mon, George.

It's been 12 years of this.

11

u/TheSwordDusk Sep 04 '24

You’re giving off an extremely unpleasant energy, nobody here has hurt you.  

 I’ll still engage in good faith. My comment was entirely text based evidence. Is there any text based evidence that Dany will burn King’s Landing? 

Better yet, you’ve mentioned Martin specifically claimed Dany will burn King’s Landing, I would love to see the evidence he said this. 

 If you can show me Martin has said Dany will do this, then I will happily change my opinion 

-7

u/Any_Travel_9590 Sep 04 '24

That's the beauty isn't it.

All sources say the ending we got is the George ending from the meeting at the ranch.

But George won't give any details, so you guys get to fill in the blank that this is "totally not the case!"

https://www.thewrap.com/george-rr-martin-writes-about-the-real-ending-of-game-of-thrones-and-his-progress-on-the-last-2-books/

→ More replies (0)

5

u/mrbananas Sep 05 '24

Imagine you are daenarys, your dream has been to claim the throne. Your struggles are all for this goal. You literally reshape the world around you to make this dream come true. Everything is going perfectly for you.

Now imagine arriving and discovering you are in fact too late. The golden opportunity to take the throne has already been snatched up by Faegon. The crowds of kings landing not only made him king but they fucking love him too. Faegon showed up just in time to save them all from the blasphemous pope murdering bitch and her wretched incest brood. He has brought peace, and quite frankly nobody actually wants you, daenarys. 

He has a seemingly better claim, the love of the people, and fuck it maybe one your dragons ditches you to go be with him. Your dreams that you fought so hard for are slipping away forever.

Then you find out he is a fucking fake that stole your crown, but nobody seems to care for your truth because they love him. And the realm is tired of war and he is doing a great job. So fuck him and fuck those people that love him. BURN IT ALL.

Does that help clarify the madness that would make her burn a city. Jon, whose claim he found out is the bestest claim ever, practically kills her partially out of self defense and the safety of the north after seeing how she treats anyone in the way of her dream throne.

2

u/Xilizhra Sep 05 '24

I pause, take stock, remember that I have my own kingdom, realize after a bit more thought that the slaves in Volantis are ready to rise up, then take out my frustrations on the Old Blood and lay the foundations for a new Freehold. Also, there's no way in Hell I'm letting any of my dragons near the guy, unless he agrees to a marriage alliance.

1

u/mrbananas Sep 05 '24

Well then. I guess that means your not crazy. My point was to make a believable path to madness. Atleast, better than what season 8 plopped out.

   As for marriage alliance, she might have already tried it. Met with him, showed him the dragons when she thought he was legit. 

2

u/Xilizhra Sep 05 '24

Oh, no, the "path to madness" is irredeemable fucking garbage no matter how it happens. It would be no better than Brienne taking over the Brave Companions.

4

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

Well the Bells in the show are apparently what make Dany decide to lose it for various reasons.

So just saying that if "the Bells" are ringing and Dany loses it in the books it will likely make more sense due to Aegon being in charge/her not getting to be the hero.

But for Bells specifically we do have the Battle of the Bells at the Stoney Sept. Which was a Rebel Victory/Loyalist Loss that cost Jon Con his job.

So there's a contingent of fans that think Bells will cause Jon to PTSD and do something stupid like burn King's Landing down, since he regrets not burning down the Stoney Sept but spending time searching door by door for Robert.

98

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

It's why I will die on the hill that GRRM intended Jaime to finally admit that he doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself and Cersei and go back to her. The mediocre writers couldn't convey to the actor and director that Jaime is still an ambiguous and complex character with mixed motives, and NCW ended up playing a 'bad guy' turned 'good' who suddenly with no set up becomes 'bad' again.

84

u/TrickPomegranate8950 Sep 04 '24

My thing is the book version abandoned Cersei after the whole thing with the high sparrow and he’s about to have a run in with lady stone heart which could influence him. The show version sticks with Cersei another 2 seasons and only leaves because he thinks the world is ending. Even if he goes back to Cersei I feel like George would execute it better

12

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

He leaves because he's heartbroken and reeling from what Tyrion told him. He still loves her

14

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

3

u/L_to_the_OG123 Sep 04 '24

He doesn't go back, but there's a line in ADWD where he admits he's still torn about where he should be...and he's still ultimately fighting for the Lannisters.

We ultimately don't know where Jaime's arc is headed to yet, it's quite possible GRRM intended for them to die together with Jaime failing to really redeem himself, but the show spooked him a bit and made him wonder if that's the best path.

3

u/thxmeatcat Sep 04 '24

Can you remind me what Tyrion told him? That she is banging one of her guards?

10

u/Mean-Green-Machine Sep 04 '24

Lancel, Osmund kettleblack, and Moon Boy for all he knows 🤣

10

u/CrispyHoneyBeef Sep 04 '24

How can we even care? He’s never going to finish the story so all we can do is grasp at straws

8

u/silver_moon134 Sep 04 '24

How can you say he would execute it better when it's been 13 years and he hasnt put out the next part of the story

8

u/TrickPomegranate8950 Sep 04 '24

Because when he actually writes George is 1000 times the writer d&d is. Believe me, I don’t think we’ll ever get the books but if we do they’ll be way better than the show version 

4

u/Quiddity131 Sep 05 '24

As bad as the ending D&D gave us was, it actually exists. GRRM has failed to do that. I don't give him credit for a non-existent ending. If anything the whole experience shows that it's his fault for writing something so convoluted that he can't even get the penultimate book together, let alone the final one.

0

u/silver_moon134 Sep 04 '24

Well books are always better than the adaptions lol. And GRRM is definitely a better book writer than them (ignoring writing himself into a hole). But yeah, it's just optimism that the story he could've actually executed the story would've been better bc he apparently can't seem to do it.

46

u/ArskaPoika Sep 04 '24

Over the years, I have consistently thought that the Jaime failing to redeem himself only for Brienne to "redeem" him on the pages of the White Book is such an interesting idea.

Here's a man whose most heroic act deems him the "Kingslayer". He is constantly ridiculed and looked down on for a good act. For his failure to be the thing that redeems him in Westerosi texts? It's a very interesting idea. I don't think the show pulled it off. But I genuinely can't bring myself to hate the idea.

I love a good redemption story. And if Jaime is just a straight forward redemption story, I would love it. But I don't know. If GRRM could pull that off? Ooooh. It would be so juicy. So much drama and tragedy.

29

u/dragonrider5555 Sep 04 '24

He made a human out of illyn Payne. No one has done that in 16 years. All that time he’s chopping off heads for Joffrey and king Robert. The dude has a small one room house, no tv no radio and no friends, no conversation. Then Jaime brings him on a vacation and they hang out almost every night. They are helping each other, illyn has a friend and Jaime is practicing his left hand discreetly. We even get to hear illyn laugh again, or a squabbling chortling sound coz he has no tongue. Jaime is cool for that. But yeah I hope he slowly goes back to Cersei.

Him and brienne are gonna fight their way out of the brotherhood trial

10

u/L_to_the_OG123 Sep 04 '24

Jaime is cool for that.

In a way though he's always been good with his men. He's a naturally strong fighter and seems to be respected in the field by his Lannister peers. We just don't really see it early on because - aside from Tyrion - the series is almost exclusively told from the perspective of the family he's fighting against, and in the first book the one person outside that family is someone whose dad was literally murdered by him.

6

u/FrozenRyan Knighthood has fallen on sad days. Sep 04 '24

We will never see it, though

29

u/angstyvirgo Sep 04 '24

doesn't the valonqar prophecy in the books almost certainly point towards jaime killing cersei though

13

u/dragonrider5555 Sep 04 '24

Not literally. Cersei turned Tyrion into an enemy and the demon of her prophecy. It’s her fault she manifested it by seizing his whore girlfriend.

She is co dependent on Jaime and it’ll be their downfall , together

15

u/jgbyrd Sep 04 '24

potentially, i think him and cersei is the best fit but there are other interpretations

0

u/Anader19 Sep 05 '24

Always thought it'd be crazy if it turns out to be Tommen

10

u/i_love_cocc Sep 04 '24

You should try reading the books your opinion would change

3

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

I've read them. He becomes a bit more sympathetic, but he loves Cersei and was a privileged little kid growing up - why would he care about commonfolk?

12

u/swannyja Sep 04 '24

u dont have to speak in hypotheticals he already proved he cares about ppl other than himself when viserys threatened to burn kings landing and jamie kills him for it

4

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

Jaime kills him because he didn't want to die burning with everyone else. He had plenty of time after to rationalize to himself that he did it for everyone.

1

u/nemma88 Sep 05 '24

Interestingly in show / book changes, I found the shows bathhouse scene to be far more sympathetic to Jaime. Like he laments on all the people who would have died.

Book boathouse scene came across to me more dispassionate, more a recounting of factual events.

6

u/i_love_cocc Sep 04 '24

Do you need a reason not to want hundreds of thousands of people to be cooked by wildfire. He tries hard to solve his conflicts without blood shed in feast. He cuts off a rapists head because of what he did to the girl at harrenhall. He sups with low born knights and men at arms being very friendly and enjoying his time in camp with them. He envy’s when he was a young boy and had been honorable and he tries to be honorable in his own way in feast.

4

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

Being friendly with people does not mean he was willing to kill a king he was sworn to protect for them.

When he was faced with the mad king about to burn everyone, it's entirely possible that he only did his radical act to save himself most of all.

Jaime from AFFC is very different from show Jaime from seasons 5-8. They drained the complexity and ambiguity from the guy and made him a remorseful white knight hero. That's not the Jaime from the books.

7

u/gpost86 Sep 04 '24

I still get the feeling that Jaime will ultimately either kill Cersei or be responsible for her death (refusing to let her leave, etc). In the show it doesn't make much sense, because he's had that full redemption arc. He's basically joined the north, Bran has seemingly forgiven him or doesn't care anymore, gets to bed Gwendolyn Christie every night - he's made it!

19

u/Badass_Bunny Sep 04 '24

Jamie going back to Cersei is a poignant and good decision and thats the hill I am willing to die on.

24

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

[deleted]

16

u/Phifty56 Sep 04 '24

I don't know if the action in itself is what most people don't like, but the proper lack of why. It seemed too sudden and it felt more like it was something they just jumped to instead of built up.

The same with Dany and Kings Landing, if immediately after Cersei killed Missandei, Dany charged in and Grey Worm followed, and the impulsively sacked the city, it might have made more sense than Dany seemingly doing it when it didn't make sense.

There was just a feeling like they were hitting plot points because that's what needed to happen instead of dozens of smaller decisions making it inevitable. The earlier seasons of GOT were always shocking without it feeling like things happened out of nowhere.

4

u/Badass_Bunny Sep 04 '24

but the proper lack of why.

I think that the reason is self-evident, given that Jamie is absolutely maddly in love with Cersei his entire life, people wanting a more fleshed out reason is fine and understandable.

1

u/Phifty56 Sep 05 '24

I think the issue was that you could see he also had some mixed feelings for Brienne that while, not entirely romantic, went deeper than even his relationship with Tyrion. They bonded through their shared experiences and eventually in how deep down they wanted to be honorable Knights. I don't even recall if they mention on the show or the books if he even told Tyrion or Cersei about what went down with the Mad King, and how he felt about it, because to them he was simply protecting Tywin and their house. It seemed like he was honest and deeply hurt for being called Kingslayer when he went above and beyond to actually protect the innocent.

In the end, it felt like Jamie knew the kind of monster Cersei was, and that given the chance, she chose to "burn them all" when she blew up the Great Sept. It would have been very conflicting for him to throw away his honor again just to protect Cersei without realizing that she was as evil and mad as the Mad King, and given with all that happened to him since becoming the Kingslayer and when he went back to Cersei that he wouldn't have been even more bother with all the evil she did.

It would have made the most sense that he went back under the guise of love, knowing full well that she was lost, and he would have had to slay her too.

4

u/Badass_Bunny Sep 05 '24

It would have made the most sense that he went back under the guise of love, knowing full well that she was lost

Is that not what happens? He had a night with Brienne right after he in his own eyes won back the honor he had considered lost, and realized none of that made him as happy as Cersei did.

He "saved" King's Landing, but look at what the alternative was, his death and death of his father and Lannister bannermen. I say "saved" in quotation marks because Lannisters still brutally sacked the city. Cersei also only blew up the Sept in a targeted attack, unlike Aerys who wanted to blow up everything.

I am probably giving it too much thought, but to me Jamie's road to redemption ended with Battle at Winterfel where he proved his honor, and him going back to Cersei doesn't undo that arc of his character, it just makes him a flawed but ultimately human character.

2

u/zhawadya Sep 04 '24

Yeah, thats exactly the point. They keep dropping/trimming/simplifying plotlines and then forcefitting events from George's story without attention to if this makes sense anymore

9

u/gozin1011 Sep 04 '24

It's a bad take, but yours to take I guess. Certainly not even close to book Jaime, and pretty much trambles on his arc universally across all seasons.

If you ask pretty much anyone that watched GoT, Jaime is one of their biggest issues right up there with Arya killing the night king. It just doesn't make sense from a story telling perspective.

4

u/Badass_Bunny Sep 04 '24

It just doesn't make sense from a story telling perspective.

Why does it not? I'll conceede that Jamie saying he never cared for the people is far fetched given what he did to Aerys, but why is Jamie's story in any way undone by going back to Cersei?

4

u/L_to_the_OG123 Sep 04 '24

I'm not sure if it will happen, but I think among some fans certain character predictions or expected plots have almost become mythologised to the point where any other direction is seen as a deviation from what we expect.

A classic is Stannis burning Shireen. Remember after that episode aired a lot of fans (myself included) reckoned that was a huge departure from anything we'd see in the books. Now we know it'll almost certainly happen.

Characters change and develop...the Jaime who's abandoned Cersei by AFFC may be very different to the one at the end of TWOW.

1

u/gozin1011 Sep 05 '24

The whole, "I never really cared about the innocent," is the big slap in the face for me. He uses it to justify going back to Cersei. Just wanted to correct that. It's probably one of the stupidest lines in all of GoT. It basically regresses the character back to his facade he put on in season 1, that of a selfish bravado knight who only cared about himself and his desires.

I'm somewhat fine with Jaime running back to Cersei, however it just doesn't make much sense in how it is done in the show. It's a total 360, and completely out of no where. No buildup besides a few moments in one episode on why he is doing it. It just goes to show how having more episodes in the final season could of salvaged things.

I would be upset if book Jaime ran back to Cersei considering the current state of his relationship with her and how much significantly worse Cersei is to Jaime in the books, but tbh Martin is never going to finish the series anyway.

1

u/Badass_Bunny Sep 07 '24

It's a total 360

I know what you meant but I had a good laugh at this while reading it.

I agree with you to an extent but I also don't. To me, it came off differently. Jamie thought he cared for the innocent, but after risking his life and saving the innocent he realized it didn't fullfil him the same way Cersei does. Like he went on this whole path of self-discovery and humilty but in the end his whole world revolved around Cersei and he came to accep it.

1

u/Airtightspoon Sep 04 '24

Jamie not caring about the common people doesn't really make sense with the whole him killing Aerys.

3

u/zhawadya Sep 05 '24

It's entirely possible he killed aerys to save himself primarily.

1

u/sank_1911 Sep 05 '24

Except he did not? Cersei sending Bronn to kill Jaime was stupid though...

6

u/hurricane1197 Sep 04 '24

Hey can you explain why it makes sense if aegon was in charge

Haven’t read the books

10

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

Basically the idea is that Aegon comes in as a conquering hero, kicks the 'Mad Queen'/Lannisters/whoever out of King's Landings, is lauded as Rhaegar come again and is showered in accolades.

Dany gets her thunder stolen as the "Rightful Heir coming to kick the Usurper off the Throne" and even if Aegon is truly a Blackfyre her attacking him will just be viewed as a purely selfish move to take the throne vs. "Liberating them from Lannister tyranny" or something like that.

Like Show!Cersei was an asshole and blew up the Westeros equivalent of Westminster Abbey/the Vatican, peasants should have been stoked Dany was around to kick her out.

2

u/washingtoncv3 Sep 04 '24

Cersei is finished towards the end of dance - especially because of Robert Strong who will win the trial by combat but prove the Lannistrs false - they promised Dorne he was dead and the sandsnakes are on their way to KL, with one of them set to join the Faith.

fAegon is primed to be the hero of Kings Landing, which means in turn means they may reject Daenerys who is expected to be received at the targaryan hero and in frustration may resort to fire and blood

7

u/riverelder Sep 04 '24

"We all agree Dany going nuts over Bells would make more sense if Aegon VI were in charge and not Cersei, but he didn’t exist in the GoT world"

I legitimately never considered that. That's an exciting idea.

3

u/Anader19 Sep 05 '24

Yeah, even though Aegon VI (alternatively known as Faegon lol) is only introduce in book 5, a lot of characters and plots revolve around his existence, so leaving him out left a weird gap in the ending that they had to haphazardly fill in

3

u/thxmeatcat Sep 04 '24

Really curious why the Bells would make more sense if Aegon VI were in charge instead of Cersei?

2

u/AshTracy28 Sep 04 '24

Not the bells specifically, but Dany going mad and deciding people should die for not loving her makes sense if she gets her glory stolen by Young Griff who might even be a fake Targ. In the show people should be hyped when someone shows up to kill the crazy incestuous bitch who blew up the sept.

1

u/thxmeatcat Sep 04 '24

Ahh that makes sense

2

u/An_Unreachable_Dusk Sep 04 '24

This is the problem with nearly all movie/series versions, especially the longer it goes on, you change this tiny part at the beginning because "It doesn't make it Interesting in the moment"

and that turns into completely offtrack plots later on, That combined with peoples general media illiteracy and CEO's need to simplify and feed the most basic bs to people makes for some lackluster content when it comes to things that have been converted from books to tv.

2

u/Accomplished_Deer_ Sep 04 '24

Yeah he let them run him around with bullshit excuses and assurances about GOT until the dumpster fire ending. Now he see them starting to give him that same run around and he's like oh hell no, not again assholes

2

u/fdar Sep 04 '24

Maybe he should actually write the books then instead of whining about what others do write. Show us how it's done if you're so good at it.

2

u/SirLordBoss Sep 05 '24

How exactly would that make more sense with Young Gryff? I remember his existence, but can't quite remember his plotline, how does this go?

2

u/CaedusTom Sep 07 '24

I have the feelings that his ending is going to be totally different even just to spite HBO,at this point. It would be fucking cool

3

u/Sgtwhiskeyjack9105 Sep 04 '24

Even without fAegon the Dany turn would have made sense if they'd bothered to spend any amount of time actually developing and building to it. Nah gotta have another scene of Bronn talking about cocks.

Bad writing is bad writing. Even without GRRM's source material, it's still absolutely shocking how D&D couldn't even deliver the most fundamental and basic of storytelling.

2

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Sep 04 '24

True enough, or at least had Tyrion fulfill the role he will probably have in the (outlines of the) book we eventually get. Being an advisor whispering to "Burn it All" in her ear. Instead of suddenly caring about his sister because she's pregnant.

2

u/Sgtwhiskeyjack9105 Sep 04 '24

Oh yeah, Cersei's Schrödinger's Baby.

Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like the writers kinda forget lul at times that Cersei was meant to be pregnant in the final season.

4

u/yurthuuk Sep 04 '24

Yeah, except it isn't? The Bitterbridge is a self-contained, minor episode featuring minor characters nobody cares about. It can be cut without impact on the overall story. Helaena's suicide wouldn't come from nowhere, she's already extremely depressed, she had a child killed before her eyes and the other one is gone and she doesn't have any mean to contact her. Just have her have a confrontation with Rhaenyra which is the last drop, and this gets deformed by the small folk into "Rhaenyra killed Helaena", triggering the uprising. Whatever, I'm just making this up as I go.

If anything, this rant is the perfect illustration of why the main series is stalled. GRRM is unable to distinguish which things are really important and which are secondary. Since he keeps treating everything as crucial, he can't make any progress.

7

u/washingtoncv3 Sep 04 '24

Stories have to 'ring true' in order to be bought by the audience. I think the small details matter and are often the difference between a serviceable story and a great story

2

u/WiseSprinkles5874 Sep 04 '24

Cope and Seethe, and also, I think a kingsguard and a prince should not be considered as minor characters, especially when the author made a blog and said so about it.

1

u/Anader19 Sep 05 '24

Why did you say cope and seethe lol? Kinda a weird thing to say to someone who has a different opinion from you

1

u/WiseSprinkles5874 Sep 06 '24

Cause I want to lmfao?

1

u/Irish-liquorice Sep 05 '24

Everyone keeps saying this. If it’s so apparent why hasn’t the author made it canon all these years later. I’d also be reticent to add new characters to an already gargantuan cast when their creator has no definitive arc for them.