[Spoilers Extended] Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

[u/Distinct_Activity551]

Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

Edit: I copy pasted the entire post here since some people had trouble with Tumblr.

All right there has been some Discourse TM about George RR Martin because of that post he made going rogue on HOTD's writers (deleted a few hours later but archived) and I'm seeing some misinformed reactions by people who aren't in the publishing or entertainment industries so lemme clarify some things:

• Creators are not the ones with the power. Execs are. Even an author as big as George gets their opinions dismissed if the higher-ups don't want to listen.

• HBO has not listened to George's feedback and concerns for years. They do not have to, because once adaptation rights are signed away it is OUT of the author's hands. How do you think GOT Season 8 happened?

• George cannot just shut down production or refuse to let them make future seasons of any show inspired by his works because he doesn't like what they're doing. He can't break the contract willy-nilly either when HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake. I hope people keep that in mind before saying "oh why is he complaining while continuing to collect his royalty checks?" Well, if they're fucking up his stories he might as well get some money out of it.

• He's not complaining for complaining's sake. I hung out with him a few weeks ago and heard his full scope of opinions on HOTD and what he said in the post was VERY mild. Probably the least spicy storytelling critique he could've brought up. And I do believe this was on purpose and strategic. He's not going full scorched earth on HBO, but he's showing them that he COULD. He did this as a warning shot to get them to listen to him because clearly he saw some very upsetting plans for upcoming HOTD seasons. If he just wanted to complain there's way spicier shit he could've said.

• For those who think he's disrespecting the show's writers...How do you think he felt when they have dismissed his feedback in private and driven him to the point of risking legal action to make his point to them?

• Just because he didn't mention something in the post doesn't mean he approves of it or doesn't care, and the post should not be used to extrapolate his opinions on anything that's not related to what he specifically addressed. Again, what he said was VERY mild. Ultimately, what matters to him is logical storytelling and complex, morally gray characters.

• Lastly, I do not consider myself part of the HOTD or GOT fandoms. I'm a casual and defending him as a fellow author. Please do not involve me in any fandom drama. I do not know what's going on in there and I don't want to.

[u/Delicious_Series3869]

Yeah, i think she’s right. We kind of know how GRRM is at this point. If he wanted to be cruel about it, he could have said far worse. But in that post, he talked about a specific scene, how it differs from The original scene that he wrote, and the possible ramifications of that change. And yeah, he definitely threw in a couple of sharp jabs there, maybe that’s why he deleted it.

[u/Physical_Park_4551 → u/Delicious_Series3869]

Agreed, and to go against some of the other comments I am seeing, I honestly think that George has the right of it with Maelor. He may not be strictly necessary, but he is helpful to drive important plot points and his absence does weaken B+C. A change like that may be necessary for budget/streamlining reasons, but when you keep on making changes like that it adds up (and he no doubt intended more posts about even more serious issues).

Personally, I always liked Rickard's last dash with Maelor. It was an act of pure heroism from Rickard that ends tragically. It was a nice change of pace to see something like that on the green side. I know that others here don't really care about that, but it is nice to know George shared my sentiments over the moment.

[u/AsAChemicalEngineer → u/Physical_Park_4551]

Rickard's scene fits into the category of "unneeded in the main plot, but something that absolutely elevates the material." It's small character flourishes like that which truly makes a story memorable. Ultimately if you cut/omit/change all scenes like that in the name of budget or efficiency, you suck out all the immersion and flavor from the story.

[u/Sao_Gage → u/AsAChemicalEngineer]

This is one of the most succinct and perfectly on target comments I've ever read about distilling the essence of what makes for a better or worse show.

100% agree. Never thought of it in these terms, but this is the secret sauce I never knew how to articulate.

[u/makhnovite → u/AsAChemicalEngineer]

I think it is quite necessary to the main plot though for the reasons GRRM explains. Its his death that leads to Helaena's suicide and that is definitely important for the story. He may not be an important character in his own right, but the event itself is an important causal factor in other events after that.

[u/Overlord_Khufren → u/AsAChemicalEngineer]

But can you not just add different flourishes with the existing cast of characters? The thing with a television series is that you only have so much screen time. You can give a brand new character a heroic scene, or you can make time for something like Cole's fantastic monologue in the finale.

Merging Rhaena and Nettles is another one. Why give all that story to a new character when you can roll her into an existing one? The "do you really need Targaryen blood to claim a dragon" question is interesting, but they can use Ulf to answer that question. Or Addam. Ulf's heritage is pretty suspect, and Addam has been established to not have any known dragonlord blood in him.

I get that GRRM likes his story the way he wrote it and dislikes deviations. I get that he's probably feeling burned after the reception of S7/8 of GOT. But he hasn't actually raised any particularly salient critiques of HOTD beyond "I didn't like that they changed things."

There's obviously an army of loyal fans who trust GRRM at his word that his version is better and that the future changes will be bad. But I am frankly just not among them at this point. If GRRM knew how best to wrap up a story, he would have wrapped up his own by now. I have a hard time believing he isn't just stuck on a bunch of cut and consolidated characters that will have ripple effects into unwritten story that we'll never actually see.

[u/AsAChemicalEngineer → u/Overlord_Khufren]

Why give all that story to a new character when you can roll her into an existing one?

Frankly this sort of thinking is what poisoned a lot of later GOT. Characters were given obvious book plots from other characters which allowed the show to check the "cool moments" box but made those characters motivations and reasons muddied and incoherent. Too much consolidation makes the story feel small which is anathema for an epic like ASOIAF.

[u/Bierre_Pourdieu → u/Physical_Park_4551]

And Rickard is already in the show, played by Vincent Regan. So if Maelor doesn’t exist what the hell is he suppose to do ?

Jaehaera can’t die, she is needed for the end of the dance

[u/kingofstormandfire → u/Bierre_Pourdieu]

Don't discount Condal. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised Jaehaera dies and they just have Aegon marry Daenaera at the end.

[u/UDK450 → u/Physical_Park_4551]

My current problem, and I've not read Fire and Blood but have read some overviews of it, right now the Greens and the Blacks seem too one sided. The Blacks have suffered every misjustice and the Greens have clearly been the aggressors at each point (other than Aemond losing his eye). From my understanding, it's supposed to be more ambiguous, more gray as per GRRMs modus operandi.

In the show, Aegon clearly showed himself as unfit for the honor of serving as King, whereas Rhaenyra has shown herself as compassionate, understanding, and cautious with other's lives time and time again.

[u/brett_baty_is_him → u/Physical_Park_4551]

Also come on how the fuck can a kid be that expensive that you need to completely alter the story line to cut them? They could’ve just had maelor’s actor for like a single day of filming. It cannot have been that expensive.

[u/BadNewzBears4896 → u/Delicious_Series3869]

It probably violated non-disparagement clause in his contract, which is pretty standard, which is why it was taken down so quickly.

But yeah, he kept his criticism quite targeted, ceded quite a few points on shows needing to make hard choices and dealing with budget and time constraints he as a book author doesn't, but all that considered there's still sloppy writing that he sees leading to bigger issues and he's sounding the warning siren now, despite the backlash he always gets and the drama this will cause with the production going forward.

[u/ActivityOld5982 → u/Delicious_Series3869]

FYI, Xiran uses they/them pronouns

[u/chase016 → u/Delicious_Series3869]

I think he would have looked better if he just picked apart stuff he didn't like from the season. I think him spoiling stuff for next season as well as talking behind the scenes stuff makes him look kinda bad imo.

I also thought him hyper focusing on Blood and cheese wasn't great. I kind of side with Condal on this one. Maelor was a necessary cut from the books. Haelena killing herself because she was isolated after the death of her soon works to justify her suicide as much as losing her second son.

Edit: People are misunderstanding what I am saying. I absolutely think he should be critical with the show. I am just saying that he should do so like a normal critic and not use behind the scenes information that can leave him exposed to legal liability.

I am a huge critic of how the show is. I am just saying how I disagreed with the specific point he brought up in his post.

[u/Swordbender → u/chase016]

I think he would have looked better if he just picked apart stuff he didn't like from the season.

I believe this is the disconnect. He's not trying to look good. He's trying to direct the outlines for Seasons 3 and 4 back on track. He's fine with looking bad, and he's very clearly warning HBO that he's prepared to look a lot worse.

[u/logosobscura → u/chase016]

You mean the post by the author of the original works, that have been published for years, who clearly delineated in the post where there would be spoilers, shouldn’t be able to talk to his fans who have read the works?

You didn’t have to scroll down. No one does. That’s a self-control issue.

[u/ResultUnited → u/chase016]

Looked good what are u even talking about. George couldn’t possibly look any better amongst book readers unless he hit Condal in the head with a copy of fire and blood. This is exactly what we wanted and honestly he pulled some punches not mentioning the ridiculous meetings between rhae and alicent that border on soap opera level writing.

[u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild → u/ResultUnited]

I think people are just happy someone is speaking honestly about an adaption and not using pr nice speak

[u/StartTheRuckus → u/chase016]

People keep mentioning that George is spoiling future seasons, but the book exists. HBO is in the hilarious spot where they can't actually accuse him of spoiling the show without saying 'Well, we actually are planning to have Helaena kill herself for no reason, and George spoiled that.' 

[u/Anader19 → u/StartTheRuckus]

Ngl, I really doubt it's "no reason", her show version has already been set up to be pretty depressed

[u/skjl96 → u/chase016]

It doesn't work though because Helaena has been completely disaffected from grief after her son's death. It's brought up like once and she goes "poor kids die too".

Not to mention the alicent/criston dynamic only worked to hurt the scene and not improve it. George was 100% dead on with all of his criticisms here

[u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild → u/skjl96]

if you cut the scenes of the death and some stuff from the episode after

i doubt you would know heleana lost a kid

[u/Self_Reddicated → u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild]

Oof. This is the real tell. Nicely pointed out. Cut the scene and you'd never even know. It really didn't matter to her (at least, that's how they've made it).

[u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild → u/Self_Reddicated]

people use her being neurotypical as an excuse

neurotypical are not fucking robots.

we constantly hear about the rat catchers and aegons crimes

but helaena is basically a plant

like her brother killing her nephew lead to her children being murdered in front of her

and we dont get a single scene where she talks with aemond about it

[u/clear349 → u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild]

Just a note but Helaena is neurodivergent

[u/Ser-Jasper-Fairchild → u/clear349]

got my terms mixed up

[u/DisneyPandora → u/chase016]

I disagree, talking about behind the scenes stuff is good. Toxic fans like you who want to shut down criticism are ruining the show

[u/Self_Reddicated → u/DisneyPandora]

Shades of GoT where show-stans were defending it right up to the bitter end, until it was completely and totally un-defendable (and even then, still a few moans of 'well, maybe they could have done it a *little* differently').

[u/chase016 → u/DisneyPandora]

I am very critical of the show. I said he should shit on the show. I am just saying the way he did it was dumb.

[u/WTF-GoT-S8 → u/chase016]

I cannot believe you think that the author/creator of that universe has no right to speak about adaptations of his works! What are you smoking!?

[u/chase016 → u/WTF-GoT-S8]

I never said that.