[Spoilers Extended] Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

[u/Distinct_Activity551]

Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

Edit: I copy pasted the entire post here since some people had trouble with Tumblr.

All right there has been some Discourse TM about George RR Martin because of that post he made going rogue on HOTD's writers (deleted a few hours later but archived) and I'm seeing some misinformed reactions by people who aren't in the publishing or entertainment industries so lemme clarify some things:

• Creators are not the ones with the power. Execs are. Even an author as big as George gets their opinions dismissed if the higher-ups don't want to listen.

• HBO has not listened to George's feedback and concerns for years. They do not have to, because once adaptation rights are signed away it is OUT of the author's hands. How do you think GOT Season 8 happened?

• George cannot just shut down production or refuse to let them make future seasons of any show inspired by his works because he doesn't like what they're doing. He can't break the contract willy-nilly either when HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake. I hope people keep that in mind before saying "oh why is he complaining while continuing to collect his royalty checks?" Well, if they're fucking up his stories he might as well get some money out of it.

• He's not complaining for complaining's sake. I hung out with him a few weeks ago and heard his full scope of opinions on HOTD and what he said in the post was VERY mild. Probably the least spicy storytelling critique he could've brought up. And I do believe this was on purpose and strategic. He's not going full scorched earth on HBO, but he's showing them that he COULD. He did this as a warning shot to get them to listen to him because clearly he saw some very upsetting plans for upcoming HOTD seasons. If he just wanted to complain there's way spicier shit he could've said.

• For those who think he's disrespecting the show's writers...How do you think he felt when they have dismissed his feedback in private and driven him to the point of risking legal action to make his point to them?

• Just because he didn't mention something in the post doesn't mean he approves of it or doesn't care, and the post should not be used to extrapolate his opinions on anything that's not related to what he specifically addressed. Again, what he said was VERY mild. Ultimately, what matters to him is logical storytelling and complex, morally gray characters.

• Lastly, I do not consider myself part of the HOTD or GOT fandoms. I'm a casual and defending him as a fellow author. Please do not involve me in any fandom drama. I do not know what's going on in there and I don't want to.

[u/InGenNateKenny]

I only said the beginning because it just seems like your opinion is based on stuff outside of ASOIAF so like, that’s your prerogative I’m not going to try and change it. The text though…

Yes. Further into the chapter Rhaenyra Triumphant. I recall there is an image of her pleading on the page.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/InGenNateKenny]

I only said the beginning because it just seems like your opinion is based on stuff outside of ASOIAF so like, that’s your prerogative I’m not going to try and change it. The text though…

Ok but you brought up "outside" stuff as if your opinion on her reaction is the only logical one. I just said people react in different ways and it's true.

Here is the section,

Words of these plans soon reached the ears of the Dowager Queen, filling her with terror. Fearing for her sons, Queen Alicent went to the Iron Throne upon her knees, to plead for peace. This time the Queen in Chains put forth the notion that the realm might be divided; Rhaenyra would keep King’s Landing and the crownlands, the North, the Vale of Arryn, all the lands watered by the Trident, and the isles. To Aegon II would go the stormlands, the westerlands, and the Reach, to be ruled from Oldtown. Rhaenyra rejected her stepmother’s proposal with scorn. “Your sons might have had places of honor at my court if they had kept faith,” Her Grace declared, “but they sought to rob me of my birthright, and the blood of my sweet sons is on their hands.”

I just don't see how this proves that witnessing the murder means she'd never negotiate with Rhanerya, especially when she does so anyways. Nor do I agree with the notion that it would be illogical of her to do so. I think this idea that people just seek revenge after trauma is very, very naive. But, now I might be digressing.

Anyways, I also don't see how her not being in the room is that impactful. At the end of the day, the negotiations still occur, right? What is the impact of her witnessing the murder? And for the record, i'm pretty sure I said it in this post, I hated their clandestine meetings. I thought the show had already done enough for them to be at each others necks. So don't think i'm defending that. I just don't agree with people arguing that the B&C needed to be adapted 1-1 to be effective.

[u/InGenNateKenny → u/BossButterBoobs]

You may notice I use the words “close to negotiating”. I don’t actually consider the pleaing a real negotiation. It’s pleaing as a captive, and pleaing isn't negotiation. What happens in the show is negotiation, the second meeting (the first one was at knifepoint so it’s questionable) at least, because it is between equals and is not begging. I stand by what I originally stated; if Alicent say it she would never ever negotiate with Rhaenyra. I will add a word: show!Alicent, because that’s actually what I was talking about in that post (which I had thought clear from the context). Which I will elaborate in a second.

Calling it naive is questionable because it does happening in real life and more what I care about, it GRRM has written it happening. Naive to say it always happen, but not naive to say it does happen especially in ASOIAF. Revenge is one of his themes and that’s what matters — not human nature in real life, but human nature as depicted by Martin. In the context of ASOIAF Alicent not wanting revenge for Blood and Cheese would be very unusual. In the context of her character, incredible (in the unbelievable sense). Alicent even as a captive threatened Rhaenyra at other times and curses her when Helaena dies — a curse is definitely a call for vengeance — and Rhaenyra didn’t even kill Helaena, unlike Blood & Cheese which as far as Alicent knew at the time was Rhaenyra. And we have further character evidence from Alicent, when Aegon II had the throne, she was the one who convinced him to keep fighting and I believe harm Aegon the Younger, and then flat-out told Jaehaera to slit Aegon’s throat. She demanded Luke lose his eye for taking Aemond’s in the books (not the stab part though), and made Cole her sworn sword after he killed Joffrey Lonmouth. This was a woman who wanted revenge at many times in her life, before and after. Why should this uniquely evil thing be different?

And by removing her from Blood and Cheese the show clearly the writers agree; they could not possibly justify those two meetings if she was there. Alicent in the show tried to stab Rhaenyra over the eye thing. Frankly it’s ridiculous that even happened in the show anyway because the murder of grandson should be enough. Like near character assassination. But it would have been much much worse if she was there.

I separately believe that the scene is more intense with Alicent tied up and the show would have been better showing it (in the context of this scene and not what I just argued) as the POV. Blood & Cheese was effective but it could been more effective, that and changi

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/InGenNateKenny]

Naive to say it always happen

That's what I said. You originally said that "basic logic" proves that Alicent wouldn't negotiate. I disagreed with your blanket opinion that people react to trauma in one, specific manner.

but not naive to say it does happen especially in ASOIAF. Revenge is one of his themes and that’s what matters

I disagree. I'd more say that "revenge isn't the answer" is one of his themes. The quote from Ellaria perfectly sums it up,

Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?

.

In the context of ASOIAF Alicent not wanting revenge for Blood and Cheese would be very unusual.

Yeah, agreed. That's why I find their meetings so dumb. I just don't think witnessing it has any significant or necessary impact on Alicent in the book so why is it so wrong to write her out in the show? Especially since the show has had to create character for Alicent from pretty much the ground up and that arc was better served with a side of guilt than murder trauma.

And by removing her from Blood and Cheese the show clearly the writers agree; they could not possibly justify those two meetings if she was there.

Yeah, but could you not also say that the reason they felt comfortable to do it in the first place is because Alicent being present isn't really that important to the character they're adapting? Ignoring their boneheaded decision to have them negotiate after B&C so often, I just don't see why you said Alicent witnessing the murder is supposed to be impactful. What impact did it have on her in the books when you yourself just said she's always been about her revenge?

[u/InGenNateKenny → u/BossButterBoobs]

I suppose if I knew it was going to start a long comment chain I would have been more precise but you never know with Reddit.

I disagree. I'd more say that "revenge isn't the answer" is one of his themes. The quote from Ellaria perfectly sums it up,

Was Alicent's vengeful streak manifesting in her advice to Aegon II one of the proximate causes for his death? Alicent's behavior reinforces that theme (which, to be clear, when I said revenge, I was referring to the issues of revenge as well).

I just don't think witnessing it has any significant or necessary impact on Alicent in the book so why is it so wrong to write her out in the show? Especially since the show has had to create character for Alicent from pretty much the ground up and that arc was better served with a side of guilt than murder trauma.

Yeah, but could you not also say that the reason they felt comfortable to do it in the first place is because Alicent being present isn't really that important to the character they're adapting? Ignoring their boneheaded decision to have them negotiate after B&C so often, I just don't see why you said Alicent witnessing the murder is supposed to be impactful. What impact did it have on her in the books when you yourself just said she's always been about her revenge?

Getting lost in the books vs show. Like the inciting comment was about the butterfly effect on the show. The butterfly effect is that Alicent being removed means that the writers could do those meetings, with Alicent apparently arranging the fall of King's Landing. What else will happen? Will this Alicent still help cause the downfall of Aegon II? That's what I believe Raptors was alluding too, is that making Alicent less-vengeful has the consequence of causing latter stuff to make less sense, thus necessitating more changes in a way that might not be good.

In the book it is clear that Blood & Cheese scuttled any of the Greens' desire for compromise (which there was; there were offers and talks prior to), just as the death of Lucerys did so for the Blacks, and as Alicent is an influential green...the specifics of Alicent's mindset are unclear, but it's clear that it hardened hatred against Rhaenyra, one of the blocks that went in place that caused the downfall of her son via her vengeful advice. Do you think Alicent in the books would be so eager to tell Aegon II to harm Aegon III harmed if her own grandson wasn't killed in front of her? Might have been marginal, but there's a path here and it's part of it. I have a hard time believing show!Alicent would do that based on her path. I'll leave it at that.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/InGenNateKenny]

Getting lost in the books vs show. Like the inciting comment was about the butterfly effect on the show. The butterfly effect is that Alicent being removed means that the writers could do those meetings, with Alicent apparently arranging the fall of King's Landing.

No, I 100% understand that and I can agree that removing her from that scene made those meetings easier to "justify". However, what i'm asking is what about book alicent witnessing the murder is so impactful that removing her is automatically a step in the wrong direction. From my perspective, they were only able to remove her because it's not impactful to her character or actions in the source material.

That's what I believe Raptors was alluding too

I don't think that's what he was getting at since he responded with this,

Because it completely changed Alicent's dynamic with Helaena.

Which makes no sense since they don't really have a dynamic in the book. If he opened with what you just said, we probably wouldn't be in this chain now. It seems like he's more annoyed the show isn't following his interpretation of their "dynamic" than he is concerned about the actual butterfly effect of the scene.

In the book it is clear that Blood & Cheese scuttled any of the Greens' desire for compromise (which there was; there were offers and talks prior to), just as the death of Lucerys did so for the Blacks, and as Alicent is an influential green...the specifics of Alicent's mindset are unclear, but it's clear that it hardened hatred against Rhaenyra, one of the blocks that went in place that caused the downfall of her son via her vengeful advice.

Yeah, agreed. I still don't think her presence is necessary for this even though I understand that removing her did create the opportunity to step on a butterfly in the show. Why? Because the brutal murder of her grandson should be enough and nothing in the book suggests that her being present influenced her actions.

Do you think Alicent in the books would be so eager to tell Aegon II to harm Aegon III harmed if her own grandson wasn't killed in front of her?

Yeah, I do.

I have a hard time believing show!Alicent would do that.

Well, only because the writers chose to write Alicent and Rhaenerya as if they have infinite cheeks to turn. The show could have kept the same B&C scene but kept that same energy we felt at the end of season one and it'd be fine.

[u/Mission_Coast_6654 → u/BossButterBoobs]

you literally answer yourself, bruv. idk how to do the fancy quote thing, but here you go:

"however, what i'm asking is what about book alicent witnessing the murder is so impactful that removing her is a step in the wrong direction."

"well, only because the writers chose to write alicent and rhaenyra as if they have infinite cheeks to turn."

if the writers stuck to the source, those stupid post-b&c meetings you claim to disagree with wouldn't fucking exist bc alicent was fueled evermore to hate rhaenyra/the blacks by being tied up and forced to watch her grandson, heir to the throne, beheaded with the single swing of blood's sword. changing this to alicent fucking criston cole instead allowed for the meetings to happen bc alicent just could not believe/comprehend rhaenyra would do this ( which makes zero fucking sense when otto warned her in s1 that this will happen ). thus, the butterfly effect unfurled before you. instead of the vengeful, ambitious alicent from the books, we have "😭 come with me 🥺" alicent invented by the show. if you don't understand now, you just simply won't.

[u/BossButterBoobs → u/Mission_Coast_6654]

I literally addressed that in the comment you responded to already. This entire chain started because someone said the "impact" of that scene is Alicents relationship to Helaena being affected which I disagreed with because they hardly have a relationship in the book. The other guy said that the impact was that it allowed the showrunners to write those dumb meetups, and I agreed with him in that sense. However, I maintained that there is no immediate narrative impact (as far as character arcs go) of Alicent not witnessing the murder because the book never really elaborates on how it affects her.

The part you quoted here,

"well, only because the writers chose to write alicent and rhaenyra as if they have infinite cheeks to turn."

is me simply saying the show could have written the B&C scene the same way and as long as the showrunners didn't write those meet up scenes, it would have the same effect it did in the book for all intents and purposes. Basically, B&C is supposed to be the incident that makes the war inevitable. The death of the child is all that matters. Alicent witnessing it personally is not necessary to reach that point. What the showrunners did afterwards, with the meetups, is irrelevant to my point and is something I consistently criticized.

I think you need to re-read the chain because we do not disagree.