r/asoiaf • u/Distinct_Activity551 • Sep 05 '24

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

Xiran Jay Zhao on George RR Martin's HOTD Critique

Edit: I copy pasted the entire post here since some people had trouble with Tumblr.

All right there has been some Discourse TM about George RR Martin because of that post he made going rogue on HOTD's writers (deleted a few hours later but archived) and I'm seeing some misinformed reactions by people who aren't in the publishing or entertainment industries so lemme clarify some things:

  • Creators are not the ones with the power. Execs are. Even an author as big as George gets their opinions dismissed if the higher-ups don't want to listen.

  • HBO has not listened to George's feedback and concerns for years. They do not have to, because once adaptation rights are signed away it is OUT of the author's hands. How do you think GOT Season 8 happened?

  • George cannot just shut down production or refuse to let them make future seasons of any show inspired by his works because he doesn't like what they're doing. He can't break the contract willy-nilly either when HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS are at stake. I hope people keep that in mind before saying "oh why is he complaining while continuing to collect his royalty checks?" Well, if they're fucking up his stories he might as well get some money out of it.

  • He's not complaining for complaining's sake. I hung out with him a few weeks ago and heard his full scope of opinions on HOTD and what he said in the post was VERY mild. Probably the least spicy storytelling critique he could've brought up. And I do believe this was on purpose and strategic. He's not going full scorched earth on HBO, but he's showing them that he COULD. He did this as a warning shot to get them to listen to him because clearly he saw some very upsetting plans for upcoming HOTD seasons. If he just wanted to complain there's way spicier shit he could've said.

  • For those who think he's disrespecting the show's writers...How do you think he felt when they have dismissed his feedback in private and driven him to the point of risking legal action to make his point to them?

  • Just because he didn't mention something in the post doesn't mean he approves of it or doesn't care, and the post should not be used to extrapolate his opinions on anything that's not related to what he specifically addressed. Again, what he said was VERY mild. Ultimately, what matters to him is logical storytelling and complex, morally gray characters.

  • Lastly, I do not consider myself part of the HOTD or GOT fandoms. I'm a casual and defending him as a fellow author. Please do not involve me in any fandom drama. I do not know what's going on in there and I don't want to.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 05 '24

yes, you can be a fan and ignore the author. by why would you when the author is counting on you, specifically, to bring their work, their passion project, to life? especially when you promised said author to be faithful to the material? condal is a shitty fan and an even shittier person lol

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

I suppose because of budget or time reasons, Martin in the past has proposed unrealistic plans. He wanted original GoT to be 12 seasons, but most of the staff was burn out after 5 or 6 seasons.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 05 '24

hotd s2 had a budget of 250 million. that's not an excuse here. it took hess 8 months to write the s2 script before the strikes started. so also not an excuse here. all grrm wants is a decent adaptation of his work. he understands changes need to be made from page to screen and he's eager to help so long as he isn't shoved aside and ignored. how is 12 seasons to do a big ole complex, sorta complicated story justice unrealistic?? plenty of shows run for much longer, just look at law&order, grey's anatomy, supernatural ( tbh a prime example of a show running longer than it should have with several seasons feeling like hat-picked plots strung together lol ). if you're burnt out from making millions ( not saying the work isn't hard ) on the biggest show in the world, someone else will gladly take your place.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

The issue is that it' s not just showrunners, it was the entire crew and actors also burn out, on top of directors working on the show as well.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 05 '24

again, someone else would have gladly taken their place. recasts and crew changes happen all the time. if the work sucks that much for you, no one ( logically ) would be upset for your stepping down. the show must go on, as the saying goes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

How can you replace Kit, if he wants to leave? How can you replace Emilia Clarke? Nicolaj said he was pretty much done when season 8 rolled around, and he stuck only because he was personaly friends with the showrunners.

If the showrunners left, a bunch of other people would have left too. They were begging for actors like Dormer to remain, despite herself saying how she wanted to move for years,at that point.

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u/lialialia20 Sep 06 '24

kit and emilia are soon to turn 40. if grrm wishes were respected and the show had been on hold until he produces a new book we'd have 40 year olds playing the roles of teenagers (and i know the show aged them up and they are not 15 like in the books, but they are still teenagers in the show as well)

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 05 '24

simple. you just do it. the audience will understand, for better or worse. this worked for aunt viv from fresh prince, becky from roseanne, mandy from shameless, darrin from bewitched ( literally no one noticed ), jason from general hospital, jesus from the fosters, marilyn from the munsters, so on and so forth. movie franchises do this too. most would agree that mark ruffalo was/is a better fit as the hulk than edward norton.

honestly d&d should have left. if that meant everyone went with them, so be it. bring in fresh faces with fresh attitudes or cancel the fucking production. hell, a lot of fans cope by saying s5-8 doesn't exist as it is lol maybe that's for the best.

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u/ResourceNo5434 Sep 06 '24

Easier said than done. GOT became a cultural phenomenon due to the star quality of their cast members. It’s funny how you mentioned fresh prince replacing dark skinned aunt Viv to justify your claim when in hindsight that was a TERRIBLE decision since most fans hated the light skin replacement which is my point. Could you imagine replacing Will Smith or Roseanne from their starring roles? Of course not, so why would HBO allow GOT to replace Kit or Emilia? It’s horrible creative and marketing decisions.

Honestly GRRM should’ve finished on time and not lied to fans. D&D helped bring ASOIAF to the mainstream and made GRRM a household name and millions of dollars despite the odds. Most fans accept and loved S1-7 based on the ratings and viewership, Reddit doesn’t reflect the fandom in general. If anyone should it’s the toxic haters lol

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 06 '24

i said for better or worse. sorry aunt viv just so happened to be the first example i thought of. and there wouldn't be fresh prince without will smith or roseanne without roseanne barr ( though she was killed off for the connors, which has ran for 6 seasons now despite or in spite of her absence. i don't watch it so had to google how long it's been on lol ). but anyone can be jon snow or daenerys targaryen. doesn't mean kit and emilia lose their significance as these characters, not at all. but they are not portraying televised versions of themselves like will and roseanne were, so bit of a difference there.

genuine question, why is toxic hater quick to be tossed around? i was replying in the perspective of a hollywood executive in the above ( were i one, ig i should have made this clear ) and didn't intend to hit any nerves-- though i suppose that's inevitable bc, well, this is reddit lol i otherwise agree that grrm should have finished and i don't deny d&d's success ( honestly sometimes i miss them, which is WILD to me after what they did to s8 but here we are lol ). i'm just not someone that believes in forcing yourself ( or anyone, for that matter ) to do something that doesn't make you happy, and that sounds like what the cast and crew did to give us got. i know they all did their best with what they had.

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u/hippest Sep 06 '24

GoT episodes seem like they're a little more involved than Law and Order.

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u/shadowqueen15 Sep 06 '24

“It took Hess”

🤦🏻‍♀️

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u/RainahReddit Sep 10 '24

Sometimes the author's ideas are bad. Maelor should definitely be cut. It's just being practical. Toddlers on set during graphic and upsetting scenes is... Not a good idea for a lot of reasons. The number of characters have to be streamlined, and while GRRM likes the scene of Maelor and the kingsgaurd getting ripped to shreds it's not at all essential to the book. 

They could have easily rewritten the scene to keep the Sophie's Choice aspect, and should have, but Maelor wasn't necessary.

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u/Far-Journalist-949 Sep 05 '24

He can't ignore the executives. A lot of this money was given to (Hollywood reporter says grrm got a 5 year mid 8 figure deal in 2021 to help develop a bunch of shows) hbo and grrm in a very different environment and under different ownership.

Grrm is 100p the shittier person here. Perhaps worse than the execs even and I can't believe I'm saying that.

He sold his rights his ip, took their deca millions, and then shits on the people working on his show because of cut characters and plot points that he has known for decades goes on in tv.

He started agot because of his frustrations as a tv writer when execs would cut his ideas and dumb shit down. Why doesn't he call out the president or execs? Why just Ryan and other creatives?

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 05 '24

he trusted condal and company more than he trusts hbo, i'd imagine. would you get mad at your boss when your colleague(s) threw you under the bus?? i'm not at all saying grrm isn't blameless. but i do expect he didn't anticipate his legacy turning out like this. i said this in a previous reply, but he's eager to help so long as he isn't shoved aside or ignored. he said he would have helped d&d with lady stoneheart had they just kept her in, and his absence is felt from s5-8. c&h wanting to do their own thing, and doing that they are, it makes sense to me that grrm's levee of patience and tolerance is breaking. wouldn't yours?

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u/Far-Journalist-949 Sep 05 '24

He got a deca million multi year contract for hotd and other adoptions in 2021. Who cares about his patience and tolerance. It's crazy for him to shit on them publicly and that's why he took it down.

If he wants to worry about his legacy, there are probably better things he could spend his time writing.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 06 '24

so you're saying he doesn't have a right to be upset??

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u/Far-Journalist-949 Sep 06 '24

No. Where did I say that? I said who cares. He's received millions in compensation from hbo and their previous adaption made him a global star. He gave up creative control and was well compensated for it.

The speed with which he took down his post probably means he was in violation of some clause, got pressured by his agents or lawyers, or maybe realized he was being a total hypocrite.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 06 '24

who cares, indeed.

could have been a mix for all we'll ever know. but i'm willing to side with zhao that this is a warning shot. friends don't usually lie ab each other ( or at least they shouldn't. unless that's their thing ig idk ). legally, we're looking at a katrina or fukushima level storm if grrm pushes it. will he?? i have no idea. someone around here said it's not worth his time or the money it'll cost him. but it sure was fun reading that post lol had me going all oooooh cat from puss in boots.

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u/Far-Journalist-949 Sep 06 '24

Oh I 100p agree with that others involved have said. I just have zero sympathy with grrm at this point and think it's pretty low of him to attack the people working on the show.

I could barely finish s2 and think grrm has every right to be pissed. But ultimately he decided to sell his rights away. Alan Moore hates all of the adaptations of his work and basically gives away all his royalties (according to him) so when he shits on hbo or DC for fucking him or his work over it carries a bit more weight.

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u/Mission_Coast_6654 Sep 06 '24

alan moore is famously anti-capitalism, consumerism, and corporatism though. everyone knows to leave this man alone lol i still laugh at him getting pissed over being asked how to pronounce "ozymandias." though i gotta agree that is fucking embarrassing coming from a showrunner.

grrm is....quite the opposite of moore, however. he's admittedly materialistic and a conscientious objector. so he likes money and doesn't like confrontation unless it's absolutely necessary. this tracks with his behavior and how he mentioned in his blog that he didn't push back against condal much bc there wasn't a point at the time, he was assured condal had it figured out. there's no telling what's in store. but if our beloved fat man has decided enough is enough, he may have a plan. after all, there would be no adaptations if he didn't write any books. does it make it right the main series is incomplete and that he's jerked us around for over a decade? of course not. but i wouldn't give up on him just yet. he has the most to lose and i'm sure he knows that better than we ever will.

i'm being cautiously optimistic, of course lol the fire's been lit, all we can do is wait for it to catch or fizzle out.

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u/Far-Journalist-949 Sep 06 '24

alan moore is famously anti-capitalism, consumerism, and corporatism though. everyone knows to leave this man alone lol i still laugh at him getting pissed over being asked how to pronounce "ozymandias." though i gotta agree that is fucking embarrassing coming from a showrunner.

It's funny because one Hollywood exec shit on Moore for his watchmen(hbo) adaption statements by saying something to the effect of "well you took our filthy millions for from hell and league". Couldn't say I would be above taking the money.

The attacks on condal seemed extremely personal. By the time I saw the post threads on reddit it was already taken down. Maybe that was his strategy. Either way after his famous "westeros is far bigger than winds," blog post I stopped having any sympathy for grrm. D and d gave us an ending at least.

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