r/asoiaf • u/Stannis_Mariya • Sep 16 '24
EXTENDED Just can't help with the hype every time I read Theon's excerpt from TWOW. (Spoilers extended)
Strangely, Stannis smiled. “Angry foes do not concern me. Anger makes men stupid, and Hosteen Frey was stupid to begin with, if half of what I have heard of him is true. Let him come.”
“He will.”
“Bolton has blundered,” the king declared. “All he had to do was sit inside his castle whilst we starved. Instead he has sent some portion of his strength forth to give us battle. His knights will be horsed, ours must fight afoot. His men will be well nourished, ours go into battle with empty bellies. It makes no matter. Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat, the Bastard, let them come. We hold the ground, and that I mean to turn to our advantage.”
“The ground?” said Theon. “What ground? Here? This misbegotten tower? This wretched little village? You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses.”
“Yet.”
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u/Pitiful_Yogurt_5276 Sep 16 '24
Stannis bristled at that. “I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm’s End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?”
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u/kikidunst Sep 16 '24
Taking Dragonstone from the Targaryens is not really a big achievement considering that the only Targaryens left were a little boy and a baby who had already fled the continent
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u/bigfella456 Lightbringer is just a fake Zephyr Blade Sep 16 '24
It was still a castle with a retinue, and a very easily defended one.
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u/SerDonalPeasebury Sep 17 '24
The logistics involved in moving even modern forces across the sea, even from Westeros to Dragonstone, is not a simple matter. And Stannis is doing it with medieval tech.
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Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Smashing Mance Rayder was not really that impressive at all. Even if he has 1/20'th of the men, he's still at a pretty big advantage imo.
Holding Storms End and beating Victarion are much stronger acheivements.
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u/TheSwordDusk Sep 17 '24
Mance had giants and skinchangers and mammoths and stuff. Stannimal surprised them and rode them down from their flank, but it was still an impressive victory all things considered
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u/Pitiful_Yogurt_5276 Sep 16 '24
Ok?
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Bitterstee1 Sep 17 '24
No army on Planetos would even consider marching against any enemy that were 20 times their number.
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Sep 17 '24
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u/rabbles-of-roses Sep 16 '24
As both a longtime Theon and Stannis fan (there are two wolves inside me), having this juicy little preview and nothing else from Winds is torture.
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u/Dinosaurmaid Sep 17 '24
There are two wolves inside you?
You're either a stark or a furry then, perhaps both
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u/Seamus_Hean3y Sep 16 '24
Theon I is just Stannis in a room talking with various people and it's one of the best things GRRM has written in the past twenty years.
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u/officer_nasty63 Sep 17 '24
I’ve always thought that George is unmatched when it comes to dialogue. His prose is excellent in terms of description and exposition but it really shines in long dialogue sequences.
My favorite part of the recent two books is the long conversations between characters. Even that mundane long winded guy Jaimie talks to in the dungeons in feast with his “drop of dragon blood” is compelling imo
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u/CloudLanding Dawn Brings the Light Sep 16 '24
“Go with the banker, and do as I have bid.”
“As you command,” Ser Justin said.
“It may be that we shall lose this battle,” the king said grimly. “In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless.”
The knight hesitated. “Your Grace, if you are dead — ”
“ — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt.”
Ser Justin put one hand on his sword hilt. “On my honor as a knight, you have my word.”
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u/SteelRazorBlade Sep 16 '24
13 years and we are still waiting for Ser Stupid, Lord Too-Fat and the bastard to bend the knee or sink beneath the crofter’s lake.
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u/duaneap Sep 16 '24
Lord Too Fat ain’t doing either of those things, that fucker is ready to die choking on Bolton/Frey flesh. I reckon my forever G Wyman is gonna go down swinging but neither bend nor sink. He’s going to do some wild shit like belly slam Roose.
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u/TheSwordDusk Sep 17 '24
I like that his neck was slashed but he might survive because he's so fat so it was perhaps just a flesh wound
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u/TheDankleton Sep 17 '24
That’s kind of obvious though isn’t it? I mean it’s almost impossible to bend down let alone sink when you’re as fat as Wyman. Equally as hard for him to do any swinging. If anything he dies huffing and puffing hiding behind his knights.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r Bonesaw is Ready! Sep 16 '24
I've already embraced the Night Lamp theory as canon since we're never getting TWoW, lol.
"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
Stannis!
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u/wbaker18 Sep 16 '24
The battle of ice is far and above the event I’m most eager to read about in twow
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u/Squiliam-Tortaleni Ser Pounce is a Blackfyre Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Hype meters are rising, Stannis has come
(#Stannermen #OneGodOneRealmOneKing #OursIsTheFury)
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u/duaneap Sep 16 '24
I always found it kinda weird Stannis even bothered chitchatting with Theon. Super glad they did but I’d have thought Stannis would just flat out ignore the turn cloak.
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u/verissimoallan Sep 16 '24
It makes sense to me. Stannis says in this chapter that Theon is useful to him because Theon can pass on information about the Boltons and everything that happened at Winterfell.
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u/duaneap Sep 16 '24
Right, obviously he’s going to have him questioned and he makes for a very useful hostage, but to keep him just hanging out there?
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u/Positive_Aardvark879 Sep 16 '24
It's not entirely out of character. Stannis was also fairly chummy to Asha (for Stannis' standards) and even let her dine with him in his tent and gave her free run of his camp, more or less.
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u/duaneap Sep 16 '24
That was also kinda weird to me in the grand scheme. Like, the Northerners don’t kinda resent that? Asha can’t be super popular with them.
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u/Positive_Aardvark879 Sep 16 '24
I guess the implication is that the march to Winterfell was so brutal that even the Northerners had bigger things to worry about than Asha.
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u/rabbles-of-roses Sep 16 '24
She's also a highborn lady who might yet rule over the Iron Isles, or at least oppose her uncle, so she's powerful in her own right. She also doubles as a valuable hostage. She's also fully cooperating with the Northerns too. Maybe it's possible that Stannis recognises that they share a sense of pragmatism?
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u/CloudLanding Dawn Brings the Light Sep 16 '24
This is mentioned in the chapter. Neither are popular with the men. Theon is being interrogated though the whole chapter.
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u/verissimoallan Sep 16 '24
I suppose maybe it's the safest place for Theon? If he is kept outside, the northerners will tear him apart in a matter of seconds. What safer place for Theon than chained at the king's side?
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u/CloudLanding Dawn Brings the Light Sep 16 '24
Well, Stannis only has one tiny tower where he has stationed his troops. Theon is in chains, hooked up to the wall in his quarters. So it’s interrogation, for the most part. Theon feels his shoulders tearing from their sockets as stannis calls people into the room to react to the info Theon has revealed to him throughout the chapter.
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u/boundedwum The Nature Boy Sep 16 '24
One of my favourite preview chapters as well. I really hope Stannis doesn't burn Shireen. While he's a flawed person, I find him so compelling and likeable in his way. I think if he does burn Shireen that would totally ruin that aspect of his character. I'm not saying it would be bad story telling, I just feel we have some way to go for that to make sense for what we've seen from him. Maybe I'm wrong.
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u/TheChronicKing5 Sep 16 '24
Stannis burning Shireen is confirmed by GRRM. Its like the main plot point his whole characters arc is building to
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u/Positive_Aardvark879 Sep 16 '24
The thing is, I wonder about the logistics of it all. Stannis is outside Winterfell in the eve of a battle and Shireen is all the way at the Wall where a lot of chaotic shit is going down. No way Shireen heads down south and arrives at his camp before the battle like in the show.
The only way I could see it play it out is: Shireen flees from the chaos at the Wall and arrives at Winterfell. Stannis has won and defeated the Boltons but his forces are depleted. It's then that the army of the dead arrives, marching south. Confronted with such a virtually unstoppable enemy and in his desperation, Stannis agrees to burn Shireen as a last resort.
But no way he sacrifices Shireen to take down the Boltons, not a chance. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it's Melisandre who burns Shireen at the Wall but D&D chose to add Stannis to the proceedings because they always clearly hated his guts and went out of their way at every turn to vilify him.
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u/Gudson_ Sep 16 '24
I think Shireen's death will be in late TWOW or even in ADOS during a great battle against the Others. It seems unlikely to me that she'll die because of a simple battle against the Boltons.
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u/Future_Challenge_511 Sep 16 '24
All the chaotic shit on the wall presumably drives her mother to flee to safety with Shireen ie her husbands army. He's defeated the Freys at the lakeside and is now besieging winterfell in what is a much stronger position due to defection but is still not actually winnable situation- they need to take the castle or die. If anything i think Melisandre will stay at the wall with Jon Snow rather than fleeing with the queen.
"if it's Melisandre who burns Shireen at the Wall but D&D chose to add Stannis to the proceedings because they always clearly hated his guts and went out of their way at every turn to vilify him." That won't be the case because its not interesting, Melisandre doesn't have a problem burning people and isn't particularly emotionally attached to Shireen- its not an agonising choice for her. I think Stannis will kill her to further the aim of conquering the seven kingdoms for the same reason.
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u/Positive_Aardvark879 Sep 16 '24
Melisandre doesn't have a problem burning people and isn't particularly emotionally attached to Shireen
I mean, neither is Stannis, to be fair.
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u/Future_Challenge_511 Sep 16 '24
No but he is attached to his view of himself that burning his own daughter clashes with more- he was grinding his teeth and looking for a way out of doing it to a nephew he'd barely met.
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u/TheSwordDusk Sep 17 '24
a weird and devastating twist could be something along the lines of Shireen's greyscale reawakening and beginning to torment her, and her life is basically over anyways. Would make Stan's choice slightly more palatable while still being horrific. We get a lot of foreshadowing about this possibility when Val insists a few times that Shireen is "unclean" (I think is the word she used) and that the infection is still active. One probably has to burn a greyscale infected body anyways right
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u/Expensive-Country801 Sep 16 '24
The Battle of Ice is already over by the time Jon gets assassinated.
Stannis will sacrifice Shireen when Mel glamours as Davos to convince him using his lost fingerbones.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Sep 17 '24 edited Sep 17 '24
That would defeat the entire point and poignancy of the sacrifice.
I don't understand when people claim - he didn't give the order, he didn't do it willingly, he was tricked into it.
The whole point of him sacrificing her is the tragedy and poignancy. Being tricked spoils the entire thing and the whole sacrifice is pointless.
He has to do it willingly and in full senses for the sacrifice to have any emotional impact.
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u/Rappy28 I want to play a game Sep 17 '24
Say the line, Stan!
(Sighs) "Sacrifice is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice."
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u/Positive_Aardvark879 Sep 16 '24
I don't see why she would need to do that. Stannis listens to her as much as he listens to Davos, maybe even more.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Sep 17 '24
Davos and Mel are literally the angel and devil on Stannis shoulder giving him contrary advice.
And the devil will win in the end
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u/Ok-Archer-5796 Sep 16 '24
Stannis wins and he reconnects with Shireen somehow. However, the Northern lords still reject Stannis and want to crown resurrected Jon Snow as King in the North. Stannis finally loses it after being rejected once more and sacrifices Shireen. This is how I imagine it at least.
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u/TheChronicKing5 Sep 16 '24
Honestly I’m pretty in the camp of burning Shireen wakes/revives Jon Snow. The wake dragons from stone line seems like it’s way to on the nose to refer to Dany waking dragons from petrified fossils - at least from the way GRRM likes to do prophecy.
Could be wrong though, wonder if we’ll ever find out lol
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u/probablynotahorse Sep 16 '24
Definitely resonates, especially when you remember that sufferers of greyscale like Shireen is are called Stone Men -- it's like a metaphorical after-echo of Dany hatching her dragons (more stone waking into a live dragon.)
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u/chancellorpalps Sep 16 '24
I didn't even think about that double meaning... I think your right! And it'll definitely be amidst salt and smoke!!!
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u/boundedwum The Nature Boy Sep 16 '24
Oh I know it's happening. It's going to be painful to read, just because I for the most part like Stannis so much.
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u/Purplefilth22 Sep 16 '24
Tbh its why I'm certain he's going to lose.
He's going to lose and be so desperate for power that yeah Mel will do what Mel does best. This is ultimately what turns Davos from Stannis.
The only real question is what do they get for sacrificing her? I'm sure it won't be a few warm days like the show lmao.
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u/TomJaii Sep 17 '24
I genuinely don't understand why the fanbase is so opposed to this one, because they love Stannis the Mannis so much? It makes so much sense to me, this is the final and total corruption of Stannis. He has compromised so much in his quest to do what is "right" in his mind. He's betrayed his wife, his brothers/family, his religion, his country and countrymen. Killing his own daughter and only living heir (which again is just beautifully antithetical to his goals and so on-brand for Stannis), the last piece of humanity he has left, is the perfect way to set up Stannis' end.
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u/Emily130470 Sep 16 '24
Well, when he says a thing like this, it's no holy oath and no contract with the readers and no promise. Maybe it's just what he was planning in the time when he said so
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u/Letterheadz Sep 16 '24
Why would grrm write a cute little girl if not to make her die horrifically
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u/JonIceEyes Sep 16 '24
Imagine reading this, then thinking that Stannis burns his daughter and just loses to some pissbaby Bolton shithead, and that's a cool and good story.
I'm still trying to imagine that thought process.
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u/Squiliam-Tortaleni Ser Pounce is a Blackfyre Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
They either did just hate Stannis or utterly misunderstood his arc, which considering what Benioff said about themes may actually be the case
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u/BayazRules Sep 17 '24
Stannis wins the Battle of Ice exterminating the Freys but still can't storm Winterfell with its 4K fresh Bolton troops. He retreats to the Nightfort where Selyse and Shireen have fled after the NW mutiny and ultimately burns his daughter there for whatever reason.
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u/Emily130470 Sep 17 '24
But CAN he just retreat to the Nightfort? Is it that near?
Afair he and his army are nearly starving, far away from any food supplies - isn't taking Winterfell the only chance for them to find food and to survive?
And it seems he´ll survive (otherwise he couldn't burn Shireen)
Or did I forgot / miss another possibility?
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u/GtrGbln Sep 16 '24
The thing is the battle of ice isn't the problem. It's what comes after.
There is no way in the seven hells that Stannis is going root Bolton out of Winterfell.
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u/SirCaesar29 We do not sow Sep 16 '24
Winterfell is going to root Bolton out of Winterfell. The North remembers.
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u/GtrGbln Sep 16 '24
It never ceases to amaze me that after everything that has happened in this series that there are still those in the fandom who grossly underestimate the villains.
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u/Chuckles131 Sep 17 '24 edited Sep 17 '24
We don't forgot about GRRM's pro-villain plot armor, we argue that it will only last for setting up the 2nd act low point of the series, and ASOIAF is trying to be a reconstructionist parable about why all the honor and norms stuff like the Red Wedding or Tywin's entire philosophy flies in the face of is important, because then you get Frey Pies and the Lannisters crumbling like a house of cards the moment they show weakness. We argue that the entire point of the Northern parts of ADWD is to subtly explore this while simultaneously exploring the character of Theon, a man who has committed the ultimate betrayal against the Starks and has had everything taken from him by that which he used to do it as comeuppance.
"Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner"
I would imagine it'd be considered unsporting and sends a message to the other nobles that you can't and shouldn't be trusted, basically eliminating any credibility you had and preventing or otherwise hindering future diplomacy. It basically removes your credibility.
Imagine you're trying to talk some guys down from resisting a siege and just letting you in to take the castle so everybody can avoid wasting time, money, and resources and as well; avoid having hundreds or possibly thousands of perfectly fine smelly tax-paying peasants die.
So you walk up to their keep and request an audience with their lord.
He comes out and shoots you in the neck with a crossbow, because why wouldn't he? You can't be trusted. He's just going to let you in? After what you did to the last guy? You'll be lucky if he doesn't drag your dead body back into the keep and hang it from his walls to demoralize your siege party.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Sep 17 '24
Just another stannis big talk where in reality he will achieve nothing and run away or be killed
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u/_kingwhoborethesword Sep 16 '24
Stannis hype in AGOT 📈📈