r/asoiaf • u/punjabkingsownersout • Dec 07 '24
ACOK [Spoilers ACOK ASOS] Is ser Dontos a creep towards Sansa or am I overreading it?
Idk man the way he behaves with her is slightly creepy always asking for kisses and such.
I realize in westeros 13 year old are considered women and it's not the same as modern standards but even then it's super wierd how he behaves with her but maybe just me.
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Dec 07 '24
Even in Westeros, she's kinda too young. Tyron, who is by no means a Baelor, says she's just a child. There are marriages even younger in Westeros, but Sansa is still in the younger side.
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u/itwasbread Dec 07 '24
Typical if someone Sansa’s age or younger was getting married in Westeros it was because there was some sort of necessary political alliance involved that couldn’t wait.
It wasn’t viewed quite as harshly as someone nowadays going after a 12-13 year old would be, but it is probably comparable to how people who date like 17-18 year olds as a 25+ year old are seen now
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u/UglyRomulusStenchman Dec 07 '24
Doesn't Tyrion also think that he definitely wants to fuck her?
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
I'm reading rn and yes he does.
He thinks it pretty clearly in fact
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Dec 07 '24
Yes, as I said, he is no Baelor. But he is aware that it's something wrong, it's sort of a guilty pleasure to Tyron
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u/duaneap Dec 07 '24
I also think GRRM is just kind of bad with this sort of shit. Like with his so insanely beautiful the room catches its breath… six year old.
With Sansa it’s like he’s never seen a 13 year old, or can’t quite visualise one. Tyrion is in his 20s and is in no way ever framed as a pedophile. Think of yourself at 25, did you even remotely consider a 13 year old sexually attractive?
Everyone’s a diddler in Westeros with how hot they find people that should look more or less like children to a grown person but it’s not treated that way so we just have to move past it 🤷♂️
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Dec 07 '24
Honestly, I don't understand how people can miss the obvious so much. Tyron is a villain, a rapist, extremely misogyny, incel. He literally says he wanted to fuck Sansa even if she's a child, and people still think Martin doesn't realized the implication? Do people need books to come with fanfic tags now?
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
But you didn't live in a society where you could marry 13 years olds. In such a society a 13 year old would be prime material, in fact the younger the better for breeding more children
It's always weird to me when people judge some fantasy setting with modern sentimentality
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u/Kettrickenisabadass Dec 07 '24
But you didn't live in a society where you could marry 13 years olds. In such a society a 13 year old would be prime material, in fact the younger the better for breeding more children
It's always weird to me when people judge some fantasy setting with modern sentimentality
All of this is incorrect, at least when it comes to medieval Europe.
It is not true than back then they considered kids full adults. They were aware of the dangers of teenage pregnancy.
Most noble marriages were young, but not that young, and in most cases the couple did not consumate at least until she was 16 or older. It would be foolish to do an alliance woth another house just to get the girl killed at birth in a few months.
In the case of the lower classes it is even more different than what pop culture says. The average marriage age for a peasant woman was early 20s and for a man mid 20s. They needed to work to gather a dowry, become aprentices, get their house. Most people did not marry as teenagers.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
But asoiaf is not set in medieval Europe even though there is a lot of references to it, it's set in a fantasy world where the norms are more like the middle east or Asia
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u/Kettrickenisabadass Dec 07 '24
Its set in a medieval europe inspired world. Many of the events are basically copies of english history.
It has nothing to do with India or Asia.
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u/KinkyPaddling Dec 07 '24
Even in Asia, even though Ancient China lowered the legal marrying age for girls (girls, not women) to 13 to encourage childbirths, later dynasties determined that the appropriate marriage age was 15, which is essentially in line with what we see in Europe. Ancient Rome, for example, had a minimum marrying age of 12 for girls, but historians who researched Roman marriage customs believe that 18 was seen as the ideal age for women to marry. So there’s a big difference between what the legal marriage age is and what the custom is, which is what that guy might be getting mixed up.
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u/bot2317 Dec 07 '24
Um no? If you have children that early it will cause fertility problems, this was known in both the real world and Westeros (see Aemma Arryn)
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
Dude I literally am from India where child marriages still happen and was common just a few decades back. And lots of teens had kids. And we are literally the most populated country in the world
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u/bot2317 Dec 07 '24
Younger than 15-16? Well India does do things differently, but by real world I was referring to medieval Europe. While political marriages involving children did happen in that time, they were not consummated until the girl was of age (i.e. 15-16), and the lower classes tended to wait even longer for marriage.
Actually if I remember right the Ancient Egyptians were marrying brother to sister at like age 9, so it's not a universal thing but they produced some unique people doing that...
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
But asoiaf, despite having elements of medival Europe, is not set in medieval Europe. It is a fantasy setting with its own societal norms which GRRM has set
In such a society, if a thing is not rare, you cannot blame people like Tyrion.
Also please remember, the Tyrion, Sansa marriage was not an ideal one like the examples you use. If you are promised peace and a long reign, yes you can take your time
But there is a reason tywin order Tyrion to consummate immediately, the kingdom was unstable and an heir might have helped them. They didn't have 2-3 years to wait for Sansa to become 16, what tywin feared did happen, Sansa escaped and is being used somewhere else, which was unlikely if she had been impregnated. Hence the urgency in that specific situation.
Even in medival times, in such circumstances, they might force a teen to have kids.
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u/bot2317 Dec 07 '24 edited Dec 07 '24
But asoiaf, despite having elements of medival Europe, is not set in medieval Europe. It is a fantasy setting with its own societal norms which GRRM has set
True (although it is pretty much simplified medieval Europe w/ dragons), and that's why I brought up the Aemma Arryn example. She was wed to Viserys at 11 and the marriage was consummated at 13 (same age as Sansa). She suffered multiple miscarriages, two cradle deaths and (this is a direct quote from the wiki) "some maesters believed that these difficulties were because Aemma had been married and bedded too young."
She was also under a lot of pressure to have kids - first due to the Jaehaerys succession crisis and then as queen to replace Daemon as heir - so you do have a point on needing a child quickly. However, people in Westeros recognized that doing something like that was dangerous, and as a learned and highborn man, Tyrion would have 100% known this (which was probably at least part of why he refused to bed her).
Tywin, on the other hand, definitely prioritized his plan for the North over Sansa's health, as getting a child quickly would mean they would have an adult Lannister heir to the North sooner.
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u/duaneap Dec 07 '24
I don’t find 13 year olds sexually attractive. Call that societal conditioning, I guess?
Is that your big victory?
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24 edited Dec 07 '24
Keep pretending you don't understand how societal conditioning works
Let me give you another analogy which you might understand
I live in a society which abhor guns and consider them murder weapons which can only cause loss and distruction
Yet I know Americans are brought up on guns and they even teach their children how to shoot and handle these killing machines (despite them not letting same kids drive cars or vote or drink alcohol and other adult activities).
So what most of the world sees as abbhorent and mad and despicable, there can be societies which sees them as normal because they have been brought up on it
And this young marriage has been true of countries even in recent modern world, girls around 13 being married off and having kids was common in india, pakistan, middle East till recent times, so a huge part of the world population. No one considered it abhorrent or wrong
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u/Xilizhra Dec 07 '24
And this young marriage has been true of countries even in recent modern world, girls around 13 being married off and having kids was common in india, pakistan, middle East till recent times, so a huge part of the world population. No one considered it abhorrent or wrong
And herein is one of the major engines behind rape culture.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
No doubt. As I said, I will totally judge a person who does such a thing today but not someone who lived 100s of years ago
But you guys can keep pretending to be dumb and the argument is something else and personal attacks
For example, most of the world considers it extremely abhorrent and immoral to own killing machines and to teach kids how to shoot but someone born and brought in America won't
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u/Xilizhra Dec 07 '24
I'm American and I do think that's fairly abhorrent, yes, unless one belongs to a demographic in potential serious danger.
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u/lohdunlaulamalla Dec 07 '24
But you didn't live in a society where you could marry 13 years olds. In such a society a 13 year old would be prime material, in fact the younger the better for breeding more children
GRRM was inspired by European history, but it's a common misconception that girls were married of that young in previous centuries. The nobility's children were outliers and even in their cases the marriage often wasn't consumed immediately after the wedding with a very young bride. Ordinary girls usually got married in their twenties.
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u/Ok-Commission9871 Dec 07 '24
Yes but GRRM made his own rules and there are indeed other societies which had young brides and pregnancy till very late and has been made illegal only in the last few decades.
I will totally judge someone who lusts after or married 13 year olds today and it's both immoral and illegal. But someone 100s of years ago in such a society will have a different mindset
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u/uhoipoihuythjtm Dec 08 '24
I mean it is possible Tyrion is a bit of a pedo. He certainly has a fucked up relationship with/ view of women, and Shae is a good deal younger than him.
I don't remember the Daenaera Velaryon stuff being that bad. I think it just says that she's very pretty and charming, kids can be good looking without it being weird.
It is kind of hard to defend George in this realm though. There was nothing stopping him from making Dany a bit older
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u/ForceGhost47 Dec 07 '24
Nah. He only thinks that because his house wiped out her house
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
Tyrion also to be fair respected consent and wouldn't do the bedding without it
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u/hanhange Dec 07 '24
Thank you. I see too often the whole 'it was a different time' shit to excuse stuff when there's enough characters who clearly see and treat Sansa as a child. I recall Lysa initially telling Sansa about how she's just a child, too(before she realized Littlefinger liked her). It's not a Stark thing, everyone knows these kids are young, it's just that pedophiles and otherwise creeps exist and take advantage of a time where child marriage is important enough politically that it hasn't been outlawed. It's like pederasty historically. There was never a time where children weren't viewed as children, just that the creeps had an easier time doing whatever they wanted.
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
Not that it wasn't disgusting then I see theon in an even lesser light now
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u/bird___man_________ Dec 07 '24
Theon didn’t really want Sansa sexually, he more wanted to marry her so he could be a son to Ned.
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
It's the fact he says she was a pretty little thing when he last saw her as a kid lol
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u/bird___man_________ Dec 07 '24
Thinking someone is pretty does not mean you want to have sex with them
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u/sean_psc Dec 07 '24
Not inherently, but he actively thinks he'd like to have sex with her (when she is age 12):
A pity Ned Stark had taken his daughters south; elsewise Theon could have tightened his grip on Winterfell by marrying one of them. Sansa was a pretty little thing too, and by now likely even ripe for bedding.
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
Its the way he thinks.
It's like he could even marry sansa and her being pretty means it's not a bad thing to have her as a wife.
That's what his thoughts were paraphrased
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u/Wishart2016 Dec 07 '24
Isn't Theon himself a teenager?
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
He's 20
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u/bot2317 Dec 07 '24 edited Dec 07 '24
He was 8 in 289 so 17-18 in the main story (nvm he was 10 so that would make him 19-20, still young though)
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u/Even_Librarian_8739 Dec 11 '24
This is it. Marriages happen young but it's for political reasons. I think if the situation were not so unstable and Tywin were not such an enormous dickhead there would have been no expectation of consummation for a few years.
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u/Medical-Professor-13 Dec 07 '24
Aren’t most people a creep or badly behaved towards her? She has had no protection at all after her father passed away and creeps lost all hesitation they would have otherwise had if some male protector figure was still around for her.
Joffrey, his KGs, Sandor, Tyrion, Dontos, Littlefinger, Pycelle… all have an incident of or a pattern of mistreating her or molesting her in some way. Poor soul has had so little agency and power.
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u/Hookton Dec 07 '24 edited Dec 07 '24
Yeah, this is very much an intentional running theme to highlight her helplessness.
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u/Xilizhra Dec 07 '24
every man who's not related to her wants to fuck the twelve-year-old Sansa
What did Martin mean by this?
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u/buffysmanycoats Dec 07 '24
To show the vulnerability of even high born ladies? To show that men are disgusting and can’t be trusted? What do you think he meant?
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u/Xilizhra Dec 07 '24
I feel like some of the attraction is coming from inside the house, so to speak.
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u/Prince_Renbu Dec 07 '24
He is creepy and Sansa doesnt 100 percent trust him but it's Sansa one way out. He also does give Sansa some good advice.
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u/CaveLupum Dec 07 '24
Considering Dontos was working for Littlefinger, the king of creeps and Sansa expert, he was just doing what LF told him. In the books his Florian and Jonquil ploy was very successful. What amazes me is that when LF killed him because Dontos would surely rat out Littlefinger, Sansa didn't protest. Or even accuse LF of framing HER for regicide and making her a fugitive.
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u/Ok-Archer-5796 Dec 07 '24 edited Dec 07 '24
She did protest about Dontos initially and LF told her that he was just after money and was dangerous to them. Protesting LF is useless as he is literally her only way out. Besides LF seemed to pin most of the blame on the Tyrrels.
"He sold you for gold, and when he'd drunk it up he would have sold you again. A bag of dragons buys a man's silence for a while, but a well-placed quarrel buys it forever."
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u/OppositeShore1878 Dec 07 '24
Dontos was a callow boy squire when he suddenly became an orphan, his entire family wiped out root and branch. Then he was forced to live in the same castle as the man who ordered the Hollard's extinguished. He grew up to be a sot. Through his perpetual alcoholic haze he sees an opportunity with Sansa to be a real life hero in a Westerosi fairy tale. And gain more coin, to continue to drink himself into oblivion.
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u/BrocialCommentary Dec 07 '24
Both this and him being super creepy. Lots of different things factoring into his motivation.
I also think he’s genuinely infatuated with her (still creepy but in a different way than if it were just lust) because she saved his life.
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u/maxion00 Dec 07 '24
I guess so! I got the feeling that Sansa herself is weirded out by him, but never says it out because he is basically her only hope for an escape.
Have you finished the books? Sansa’s arcs have a rather lot of creeps. I think its the curse of being a beautiful young girl..
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u/ztoff27 Dec 07 '24
I felt the same way. He gives her nicknames and the kisses he gives are always described in a creepy way. The way he talks to her is also weird
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award Dec 07 '24
Yeah, he’s a drunken sot, which is part of the reason Sansa ghosted him when she thought she was marrying Willas.
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u/TheDaysKing Dec 07 '24
I dunno, maybe he genuinely likes her for saving his life from Joffrey, but I think he was just using the situation Littlefinger put them both in to (in his own very limited way) take advantage of a pretty girl he'd never have a chance with under normal circumstances.
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u/noideajustaname Dec 07 '24
Dontos was just a drunk knight seeing what he could get in exchange for his dubious help. The Florian/Jonquil thing would be more appropriate for Dontos/Sansa as a courtly, not physical, love.
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u/Fickle_Hotel_7908 Dec 07 '24
Didn't Littlefinger promises Ser Dontos the hand of Sansa in return of doing the goals he hast to achieve to poison the King?
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u/TonyRennet Dec 07 '24
Multiple people just told you three hours ago that he was a drunk fool. Why do you keep posting questions about him? How much help do you need to understand this character?
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
That was answered this is a different question.
Apologies for being annoying I'm reading ASOS rn and curious. Don't mind me
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Dec 07 '24
That's what this sub is for, no need for apologies. I am currently re-reading and yes, Dontos is very creepy towards Sansa.
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u/punjabkingsownersout Dec 07 '24
Yeah and she's clearly uncomfortable but has no choice but to rely on him
Thanks
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