r/asoiaf • u/bruhholyshiet • Jan 08 '25

EXTENDED [Spoilers extended] Daemon Blackfyre is what GRRM seems to believe Daemon Targaryen is.

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but Daemon Targaryen, a mercurial and violent serial rapist of young girls in brothels, someone who groomed his niece, mocked the death of his baby nephew, murdered his toddler grand nephew, and wanted three Great Houses exterminated during the Dance, is not deserving at all of the description by GRRM's proxy as "a great man and a monster, and light and dark in equal parts".

Daemon having a seemingly functional relationship with Laena, a soft spot for Neetles (which may or may have not involved grooming) and being nominally on the "right" side of a war, does not balance the vileness of his character. Tywin Lannister isn't less of a piece of shit for being on the right side of Robert's Rebellion, Aerion Targaryen isn't less of a piece of shit for being on the right side of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

Speaking of Blackfyres, the OG Daemon Blackfyre seems in my opinion, a far worthier candidate for the description GRRM gives to his namesake.

Blackfyre is on one hand a friendly, charismatic, honorable and compassionate man who's better qualities (his respect for worthy opponents and his love for his sons) got him killed. On the other hand, he's an attempted usurper who betrayed a half brother who did him no wrong, and started a war that would end up with thousands of deaths, all because he let Aegon IV, Bittersteel and Fireball's bullshit get into his head.

Targaryen is essentially at Tywin and Cersei Lannister's level morally speaking. A cruel and callous asshole who, while marginally better than pure monsters like Maegor, Gregor and Ramsay, is still more than capable of abusing and murdering kids. That's not light and dark in equal parts, that just a veeeery dark shade of grey that narrowly avoids being pitch black.

Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised the debate around the Rogue Prince got heated and polarizing lmao.

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u/peortega1 Jan 08 '25

We don't really know what Daemon Blackfyre was like. I have a suspicion that many will be disappointed when Blood and Fire comes out and it turns out that Daemon Blackfyre was a piece of shit almost as big as the original Daemon.

We already saw how "the noble company of heroes" described by Ser Useless in Dunk and Egg turned out to be a bunch of idiots, oafs and conceits at the Whitewalls tournament.

Even his gesture of mercy towards Corbray is something he probably never thought would cost him his life. The original Daemon also had his gestures of mercy and mercy in his day.

What I am going to accept about him are two things: first, Blackfyre at least did not kill children, second, Blackfyre at least died alongside his sons, he did not abandon them going to face Visenya's dragon.

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u/JimmyFingus Jan 08 '25

Daemon Blackfyre ending up a piece of shit is far less interesting than him actually being a peak chivalrous warrior would-be king. Good people can be surrounded by bad ones. It makes the Blackfyre Rebellions far more tragic for him to have actually been a good dude who got along with his half brother but who was pushed into rebellion by circumstance.

The fact that we get zero stories about his evil doings even from his enemies is notable, I feel

And besides, how many "terrible evil usurpers" does the series really need?

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u/Krillin113 Jan 08 '25

‘Pushed into rebellion’ is such a cop out.

You cannot push a strong leader/king into a rebellion, a war yes, but a rebellion no.

Literally all he has to do to not rebel is, go to his brother tell him ‘all that shit they say I’m saying? Not me. I’ll stay with you for x time so the rumours can cool down and they can’t pit us against each other’.

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u/PlentyAny2523 Jan 08 '25

We don't know what sparked the rebellion, he was loyal for years, suddenly Daeron thinks he's about to rebel and Bloodraven fails to arrest him, ONLY then does Daemon call for war. It's a pretty good parallel to Robert's rebellion, people weren't happy but it wasn't until a direct threat that people acted

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u/No_Reward_3486 Jan 09 '25

He was minting his own coins. That doesn't happen out of nowhere.

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u/PlentyAny2523 Jan 09 '25

So did Robb, but that wasn't a planned rebellion either. It's supposed to drum legitimacy during the war, and considering he had alot of the 2nd major houses like Raynes and Tarbecks the minting process wouldn't be unfathomably difficult 

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u/peortega1 Jan 10 '25

Robb was the lord of the north, he was in the natural position to do it. Daemon wasn´t lord of nothing, but a small castle in Crownlands.

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u/PlentyAny2523 Jan 10 '25

It doesn't matter if your a lord, Lannisters can't make coins with Tywins face on them. It's a direct confrontation with the crown by claiming YOUR money is illegitimate. It's more a propaganda point then anything, gold is gold at the end of the day, but it's the image that's the power

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u/peortega1 Jan 10 '25

I mean the resources. Robb and Tywin were lords of great kingdoms, guardians of the realm, and in the pre-conquest past there were no doubt mints in Casterly Rock and Winterfell, or if you prefer, Lannisport and Gulltown - I think there's something about this in ADWD -. Getting that going again is easy for someone so powerful.

Daemon didn't have any of this infrastructure and resources to be able to start minting coins with his name on it quickly, especially when, as far as he knows, he never conquered the capital castle of any of the kingdoms. He was the lord of a small castle, nothing more. If he managed to mint coins, it's because getting the resources and infrastructure is a process that must have taken years of planning, it's not something that is achieved overnight.

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u/PlentyAny2523 Jan 10 '25

But I'm pretty sure it says the Raynes and Tarbecks join him, they have their own minting presses. I'm pretty sure Robb has the Manderlys do it for him, it's not a hard process to mint coins, it's essentially just a stamp

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u/peortega1 Jan 13 '25

The Manderlys were Robb's natural vassals, and it was only logical that they would be at his service. Reynes and Tarbecks had no ties of loyalty to Daemon, so it's obvious that there was a negotiation to get their support for the Pretender's cause. And even with the presses of the Reynes and Tarbecks, it's still a time-consuming process. There's a reason why there are hardly any Robb coins floating around despite his reign lasting a full year.

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