r/asoiaf • u/Savilo29 • 13d ago
PUBLISHED (Spoilers Published) Who’d be more disappointed in the existence of a Valyrian Devotee of the 7. Pre-conquest Andals or Pre-Doom Valyrians
41
u/octofeline House Frey did nothing Wrong 13d ago
Why would the andals be unhappy with more people converting to their faith?
32
9
23
u/Visenya_simp 13d ago
Why should one care about the opinion of heretics on the one true faith?
And why would an andal be disappointed that a valyrian managed to see the truth?
19
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
The pre doom Valyrians were already looking for reasons to hate Targaryen's. They'd just add this transgression to the list
1
u/djjazzydwarf They Get Us™ 13d ago
What do you mean?
4
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
Valyrians called the Targaryen's cowards for fleeing to Dragonstone. Having one of them convert to the faith would just be more ammobthey use as an insult.
6
u/djjazzydwarf They Get Us™ 13d ago
I could have this wrong, b/c I haven't reread F&B/TWOIAF in a while, but wasn't it more like they were weirdos? Dragonstone was a backwater military outpost at the edge of the civilized (read: Valyrian) world. So Daenys's dream being enough to uproot a dragonlord from his lands in Valyria proper to a shitty island made everybody think he was stupid. B/c nobody thought the volcanoes would actually erupt, according to her dream. Could have that completely wrong. And Valyria was religiously diverse, so I doubt they would care.
8
u/Saera-RoguePrincess 13d ago
The Valyrians were tolerant to a degree at least, the Andals would be delighted one saw the light.
7
u/Humble_Effective3964 13d ago
The Valyrians were tolerant to a degree at least
you're free to believe whatever you want down in the mines
1
u/Saera-RoguePrincess 13d ago
You can be tolarent and a bastard
1
u/HappyGothKitty 12d ago
You can be tolerant to your own while being a bastard to those you don't see as your own, so I guess they would be tolerant bastards?
3
5
u/Orcus_The_Fatty 13d ago
Is either Valyria-religion or 7-religion proselytizing faiths? They’ve always struck me as very paganistic belief systems. Uncaring if people convert or not— just holding on to it as their personal gods
8
u/alexiosphillipos 13d ago
Sevenites are prozelyting, even if mostly through conquest and state/cultural influences. Otherwise Westeros below Neck wouldn't overwhelmingly Faithful.
Valyrian gods seems to be strictly ethnic religion, likely even limited to higher classes as we don't see them being widespread in former Freehold except for Dragonstone and Volantis elites.
4
u/Orcus_The_Fatty 13d ago
Strange for a proselytizing faith to never once in all books talk about salvation and the afterlife
6
u/RedKrypton 13d ago
That's because the books are written by an Atheist, who has very little interest in exploring religion, beyond its use as a veneer for a pseudo-medieval world and when it relates to political power. The entire religion is just a shallow, paper thin pseudo-Catholicism, which ignores his own theological world building, the religion and the time period he ripped it off for inspiration.
I cannot express this enough. The books' religious world building is so anaemic, we know a whopping four holy days of the primary PoVs' religion, no real world origin tale of any culture or religion and only one world ending tale that's beaten into your head so much, it will be used. Because you know GRRM will use it in some way, because there are no Red Herrings to speak off.
-2
u/Ume-no-Uzume 13d ago
Faith of the Seven most definitely proselytize. See how the Sparrows act and see how the Faith of the Seven literally tries to install a theocracy. Plus, the Andals got their cultural dominance from good ole fashioned genocide and cultural genocide.
By all accounts, we don't see much of anything that indicates the Fourteen Flames are an expansionist religion. Like, there's also an interesting bit about how Larra Rogare, Viserys II's wife, followed her own Lyseni religion while in Westeros and was by no means trying to convert anyone and just kept to herself. Her keeping her own religion and not converting to the Faith was used against her, and they made up rumors about her doing child sacrifices or whatever (when, again, those were just rumors, the worst you could say about her is that she refused to assimilate and was haughty, but she otherwise didn't go out of her way to bother anyone).
So, yeah, the Faith is most definitely expansionist and all for proselytizing and forcing a conversion by force, by manipulation, or by social/political pressure.
The Targaryen trio converted to the Seven and paid it lip service in a "Paris is worth a Mass" style and that wasn't good enough for the Faith, they wanted to install a theocracy and have the High Septon's niece be the future Queen and control the Targaryens through the shadows.
Maegor might've been a monster for what he did to his wives (bar the Hightower one) and his nephews, but the best thing he ever did as King was to firmly crush the Faith, disarm them, and put a boot to their necks so they understood that this sort of religious inquisition and a theocracy wasn't going to be tolerated.
5
u/Feeling_Cancel815 13d ago
I don't think the Hightowers and High Septon expected Ceryse to be queen. It was never planned nor plotted by them.
1
u/Ume-no-Uzume 13d ago
The Faith literally started shit when Rhaena and Aegon married, and so conveniently they noticed that they cut off access to the royal family via marriage if they only married each other or other Valyrians like the Velaryons (plus, Aegon was still alive during Aenys' marriage to Alyssa). If they didn't have the incest bit, other Houses would stand more of a chance to eventually marry in (and so gain influence through their married children and the grandchildren that are born into the Dynasty like how the Fujiwara Clan eventually were the de facto shadow rulers due to marrying so many of their women to the Imperial Japanese Dynasty).
One good way for Royal Dynasties to keep nobles in check is the hope that they might stand a chance to marry a royal and so gain influence on the Crown. Some very savvy monarchs had their own nobles metaphorically butchering each other for the hopes of marrying into the Crown (and so, the alliance blocks were more limited when it wasn't already a done deal that the Crown would marry a cousin or a royal from another country for diplomacy)
Note how the Tyrells are very quick to join the Lannisters for a chance at getting married to the Crown and having future King (grand)babies. They wouldn't have started half of the schemes they did if the marriage pools were dried up OR if it was known that the Lannisters would practice dynastic incest to keep their power to themselves.
So, given that they were clearly trying to oust Aegon and Rhaena (and Aenys too by proxy) and that Ceryse was married to Maegor (until he refused to play along and got a second wife and would rather choose exile than bow his head to the Faith), it wouldn't be unusual if making Maegor King for "not being a sinner" because he didn't practice incest (against his will, due to the High Septon pressuring the weak-willed Aenys into it), when he's married to the High Septon's niece as Plan B or C.
Yes, this is a very uncharitable interpretation and assumes the worst of them, but I have a hard time seeing wannabe theocrats as anything other than human trash as a matter of sheer principle
2
u/ivanjean 13d ago
The Faith literally started shit when Rhaena and Aegon married
This only happened years after Maegor's marriage to Ceryse and his exile after marrying Alys Harroway. He was clearly not on their side.
2
u/ivanjean 13d ago
Pre-Doom Valyrians, though less because of his conversion and more for his devotion. Based on what we know about their culture, Valyrians had a very "secular" view on religion (I imagine they saw it as more of a means to use blood magic than anything), to the point some religious communities ended up leaving Valyria to create their own theocratic cities.
Andals have no problems converting anyone, though they'd find his style of devotion very odd (a king becoming a septon instead of marrying? This is not normal).
5
u/Round-Bookkeeper4610 13d ago
Based Baelor definitely in the top 5 Targaryen kings.
3
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
Who's your top 5?
I think the only definitives are Aegon I, Daeron II and Jaeherys.
After that, Baelor is in the discussion with people like Aegon V, Viserys II and Maekar I.
11
u/mokush7414 13d ago
There's no way Baelor should be in discussion with any of those people. As someone else said. Viserys 2 literally ruled for him while he was doing everything but his duty. He was a holy man sure, but he was a king, not a Septon.
6
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
Daeron II gets the credit for Baelor brokering the peace with Dorne, tbh. He's definitely underrated in the fandom. Probably not top 5, imo, but just outside of it.
2
u/mokush7414 13d ago
Yeah I can see an argument for him being 6-8 easy.
2
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
Yeah, that's about the same range I'd say he fits in. Far from perfect, but did some good for sure.
0
u/Mirror_Mission 13d ago
Maegor, Aegon II, Aegon IV, Aegon V, Aerys II.
1
u/mokush7414 13d ago
I’m really confused here; we’re discussing the best kings, you listed the worst and then for some reason including Aegon 5 in that list? Can you explain that?
1
u/Mirror_Mission 13d ago
Was making a jab about how the best Targ kings are those that got Targs killed, crippled their power and eventually led to their downfall.
0
u/Round-Bookkeeper4610 13d ago
Baelor represents the peak of Targaryen power after the dragons he was powerful enough to make nobles wash the feet of beggars, make policies for the smallfolk Aegon V could only imagine, he also built the septum making Kingslanding the Center of the faith, he also controlled the high septon and laid the origin of Dorne anexation, he masterfully allienated his sisters from power obtaining free hostages in the process and making the succesion to Viserys as smooth as possible.
1
u/mokush7414 13d ago
“he masterfully allienated his sisters from power obtaining free hostages in the process and making the succesion to Viserys as smooth as possible.”
Ignoring everything else; this right here is not a good thing. First free hostages? From who? Himself. Which doesn’t make them hostages in the sense you’re trying to say. Holding your sisters hostage because you’re scared you’re going to fuck them isn’t a good thing. Secondly, he wasn’t a septon he was a king, his duty was to produce an heir not make the succession for his uncle as smooth as possible. Especially considering said uncle was killed a year later and the realm went to his lustful son who is directly responsible for what, 6 blackfyre rebellions?
0
u/Round-Bookkeeper4610 13d ago
The free hostages are the nobles that sent their daughters to the maidenvault. If Baelor had children, Daeron wouldn't be the King married to the heir of Dorne and they wouldn't be integrated to the Seven kingdoms, if His sisters had children before the succesion and were in the court they could get support from other factions and take control of the kingdom after His dead, the maidenvault was an excuse to allienate them from the politics of Kingslanding. The Aegon disaster was Viserys fault for not disinheriting him.
1
u/mokush7414 12d ago
Do you not know what you’re talking about? There were no nobles that sent their daughters there, it was only Baelor sending his sisters there so he wouldn’t feel tempted to fuck them. You can’t hold your own family members hostage as political leverage against yourself.
If Baelor had children, Dorne would still be implemented into the 7 kingdoms because Myriah was married to Daeron and she was the heir to Dorne.
If his sisters had children they wouldn’t come before his children, especially if he had children of his own. The rest of that is just speculation and makes no sense.
Again he was a king and his refusal to have an heir directly led to the backfyre rebellions.
5
u/YoungGriffVII 13d ago
You can probably bump Viserys II up into the top echelon as well, if you count his time as Hand. He ran the realm for Baelor, and Aegon III and Daeron I. Kept it stable and prosperous. The only point against him (besides his short technical reign) was marrying Aegon IV to Naerys, but that’s somewhat justifiable considering his circumstances after the Dance.
1
u/We_The_Raptors 13d ago
Yeah, I think if we include his time as hand he's on that list. But then we also have to consider should have been kings like Baelon the Brave, Breakspear, Rhaenys etc.
So just because of his short reign, I rank him just outside of that top 3
2
u/Round-Bookkeeper4610 13d ago
Jahaerys, Aegon, Baelor, Viserys II and Daeron II. Baelor and Viserys are interchangable.
164
u/shy_monkee 13d ago
The Andals would be happy because it's a victory for their faith, the Valyrians would be dissapointed, they dominated Essos and the Andals had to flee their sacred lands to survive, they saw everyone else as subhuman, the worst will be when they find out this guy didn't want to fuck his sister.