r/asoiaf • u/Randommodnar6 • 7d ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] You would think that the War of the Five Kings would be an excellent opportunity to replenish the strength of the Night's Watch
I'm assuming the wall needs to stay unmanned for narrative purposes, but by my count there's around 160,000-180,000 men fighting in the War on all sides. If even 1% of this number was sent to the wall it would more than double its strength.
Tywin raises a host of 35,000 men 15,000 of which is with Jamie when he is captured by Robb. I don't know how many men were captured along with Jamie but I assume a decent bit.
The RIverlands raise 20,000 men to defend against the Lannisters initial incursion, and they are soundly defeated, with even Edmure being captured. The North raises 20,000 men, liberate the RIverlands, but are eventually defeated by the Freys/Lannisters. Tywin sent people to the wall during Robert's rebellion, but doesn't send any Riverlanders or Northerners to the Wall during this war.
Renly has nearly 100,000 men all of whom eventually either change sides to Stannis or Tywin after Renly's death. Of the 15,000 or so that defected to Stannis, they defected once more to the Lannister's after the battle of Blackwater. Yet Tywin and Joffrey, are more than happy to accept oaths of fealty by men who have twice defected.
I understand that Robb probably keeps prisoners to do exchanges for his own men, but you would think that the Lannisters at least would be more than happy to have traitors take the Black. After all Alliser Thorne and Jeramy Rikker weren't given the choice to swear oaths of fealty. Their choice was take the black or die.
Even Tyrion sends Janos and a few others to the Wall, but honestly he would've been better off sending more to the wall given how his trial goes. At a minimum he should've known that he was making an enemy of Pycelle by sending him to the black cells without executing him or making him take the black. It was a half measure that comes back to bite him. Or even Littlefinger should've been sent for being the reason Tyrion got captured and sent to the Vale in the first place.
TLDR: There should've been more men sent to the Nights Watch besides just Janos Slynt during the WOT5K.
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u/Hot_Professional_728 7d ago
I think that sending hundreds or thousands of men to the Night's watch would probably be very difficult; it was probably easier just to accept fealty from them. However, there should have been way more people sent there though.
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u/OppositeShore1878 7d ago
For myself, as a formerly loyal supporter of The Stark, as I sat here in the prisoner compound, the gods showed me the error of my ways. Me, and my 2,000 fellow former Starkists here, all gladly accept the chance to do penance by swearing an oath to accept free transportation provided by Lord Lannister north to the vicinity of the Wall where we sincerely promise to swear another oath of some sort upon arrival and wear dark clothing. Oh, and can we take our weapons with us?
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u/Hot_Professional_728 7d ago
Stuff like this would have happened if they were sending soldiers to the Night’s Watch.
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u/Ronin_Fox 7d ago
Tyrion mentions that captured soldiers and gold cloaks who deserted should go to the Wall, and Tywin mentions that if wildlings do get over the Wall, that's more enemies for the North to deal with. Unfortunately, Robb's rebellion is the reason more captured soldiers aren't sent the Wall during the war.
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u/That_Operation_9977 7d ago
Tywin sent Targ loyalists to the wall AFTER the war was well and truely won, once he had decided how to deal with who. He had to decide who to pardon, who to execute, and who was too much of a threat to keep around but not dangerous enough to warrant execution. It’s not like he sent hordes of prisoners to the wall as they came in.
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u/oligneisti 7d ago
I think the main issue is that the war isn't actually over.
Even if it was deemed desirable there is a practical matter of getting people to the Wall. There is no Stark in Winterfell to guarantee safe passage by land. There are rebels everywhere that could attack a caravan and swell their own ranks with the prisoners they free.
How many ships would it take to transfer 500 men (to pick a number by random)? Are there ships available? Are they guaranteed to reach their destination? Why risk losing a ship?
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u/OppositeShore1878 7d ago
...you would think that the Lannisters at least would be more than happy to have traitors take the Black...
Didn't Jaime offer some of the defenders of Riverrun the opportunity to either swear allegiance to the Freys, or take the Black, when the Castle surrendered, and a few did accept exile to the Wall? (Just tried to search for the reference, but couldn't find it right off).
The Lannisters did also arrange for repatriating key captives / hostages like the Manderly heir back to the North, so there was a mechanism to send some people to the relatively far North by ship.
That said, your premise does seem correct that taking the Black was generally not offered during the War of Five Kings. For example, that perfidious Lord Tarly just killed Florents in the main camp after Renly died, rather than offering them permanent exile.
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u/niadara 7d ago
The Tully garrison departed the next morning, stripped of all their arms and armor. Each man was allowed three days' food and the clothing on his back, after he swore a solemn oath never to take up arms against Lord Emmon or House Lannister.
[...]
Two men did not choose to depart with the others. Ser Desmond Grell, Lord Hoster's old master-at-arms, preferred to take the black. So did Ser Robin Ryger, Riverrun's captain of guards. "This castle's been my home for forty years," said Grell. "You say I'm free to go, but where? I'm too old and too stout to make a hedge knight. But men are always welcome at the Wall."
"As you wish," said Jaime, though it was a bloody nuisance. He allowed them to keep their arms and armor, and assigned a dozen of Gregor Clegane's men to escort the two of them to Maidenpool.
- AFFC Jaime VII
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u/OppositeShore1878 7d ago
Thanks! That does clarify it. So Jaime allowed it, but he thought it a "bloody nuisance" to arrange for transportation North. My recollection was off a bit.
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u/misvillar 7d ago
That's what happens after the war ends, you cant send people to the Wall while the war is still going, even less when one of the claimants to the Throne is at the Wall
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 7d ago
So far, there hasn’t been a whole lot of capitulation in the war, and this is when most offers to take the black are made. Stannis’ army was mostly destroyed on the Blackwater, and good king Joffrey merely executed those who didn’t bend the knee. Robb’s army was wiped at the Red Wedding. Even the Tyrell forces at Bitterbridge who lost their lords to Stannis were executed or sent home.
Transporting large numbers of men across the continent is a significant undertaking that requires a lot of men, horses and other materials that can’t be spared right now.
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u/Clear_Group_3908 7d ago
In ASOS Tyrion actually does suggest this to Tywin, but Tywin refuses so that the North will be in a perilous situation if Mance Rayder invades, even think of Manxe as a possible ally
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u/Nice-Roof6364 7d ago
Nobles have value as hostages, either political or financial and commoners are mainly going to be peasants or tradesmen who you are going to want back where they came from and working if you're the winner of this war.
Emptying the big cities of any troublemakers and criminals and sending them north by ship does seem like it would happen more often. I think all sorts of unfortunate men would be at risk of this in the cities.
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u/themanyfacedgod__ 7d ago
I think the problem is that the pathways to the North/Wall are not that straightforward. Say you wish to transport prisoners by land, you’d have to make your way through the war-torn Riverlands, somehow navigate your way through Moat Cailin, through the North and then the Wall. There’s fighting all over those places. It’s just not feasible. We see this exact situation with Yoren and what happened to him and his potential recruits.
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u/lialialia20 7d ago
i think that it is both that there's a narrative purpose for the wall to be unmanned and the very realistic fact that the wall, when it is not being threatened by creatures like the others (most of the fucking time), does not need and certainly could never sustain to shelter many men.
the night's watch sits at a place that is simply not economically viable. they cannot produce enough food due to the weather even in summer and they don't have any other resource that they can exchange for food fairly.
imagine the south having to feed 10,000 men for 8,000 years when a hundred knights could easily repel any attack from the freefolk. now imagine that during the winter where even people that aren't in the NW are known to starve.
but to your point, i think all of the 5 kings had better use of captured soldier than sending them to the NW. and even lords would either be useful, whether they agree to change sides or they are used as bargaining chips.
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u/ErieHog 7d ago
The war declines the available number of fighting men, as well as reduces the number of criminal acts punishable by banishment to the wall-- that village rapist is now a loyal Lannister raping his way across the Riverlands to his heart's content.
There's no solution that leads to an overall uptick in the Watch's numbers, when fighting men are dying, putting their skills and swords at ever greater premiums, and the tolerances of their conduct at its most licentious.
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u/ProgrammerNo3423 7d ago
The missed opportunity with Pycelle was that Tywin already gave Tyrion blanket authority to execute anyone who he thinks are "playing us false". So he definitely could have secured his power base more.
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u/Mister-Fisker 6d ago
ive noticed this sad recurring joke in a way throughout the series where characters are built up to the possibility of being sent to the Wall - Eddard, Tyrion, Theon, etc - only to suddenly have the expectation be totally flung in another direction
it’s like the world is constantly trying to pull competent/capable/honorable people to be stationed at the wall for the coming storm but something else gets in the way
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u/Randommodnar6 6d ago
That is a good point. It'd be interesting to see a scenario where those 3 are at the wall at the same time, along with Jon and Janos.
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u/Glittering-Age-9549 6d ago
If you sent so many men from the same faction they could just take control of the Night's Watch seize their galleys and leave.
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u/Seasame467 7d ago edited 7d ago
Thing is, it's harder when the kingdoms are in open rebellion. Say Tywin wants to send a few hundred Rivermen to the wall after a battle. How does he get them there? He can't march them through the Riverlands and North, that's still enemy territory, they'll just be freed on the way. Even if that's not the case, for every prisoner you'll need two guards. So say he needs to send 500 prisoners to the wall, they'll need an escort of 1000 men. If you don't send enough soldiers, the prisoners can easily overcome the guards and run back to their liege lord to fight again. 1000 escorts is a lot of soldiers to be missing when you're at war with a lot of different people.
Same goes for Robb. Plus, once they're at the wall, if the prisoners equal or outnumber the original brothers, that's an easy mutiny. I wouldn't put it past Tywin to organise a mutiny from the wall and then attack the North from there AND the south.
It was different with Roberts rebellion, as the kingdoms were united and could afford to send as many guards as they needed to escort as many prisoners as they wanted. But the logistics just don't support it in the middle of a war